does the US govt owe LGBT reparations?

[HoodedRat]

Where would one draw the line? Anyone who wasn't an able-bodied, middle class, heterosexual, white male might feel that they should be compensated by the state for perceived past or present wrongs.

Maybe it would just be easier to levy a fine on able-bodied, middle class, heterosexual, white males?

 

[bankside]

With respect to Mr. Coates’ concept, would it be less-wrong (e.g. more agreeable) if “reparations” arrived in a form other than cash?

Thanks for the link. Haven’t read the details of his proposals for a while.

That essay gives an exhaustive inventory of how awful slavery was. And it gives examples of how specific people were wronged. To that point I agree with it. A gay person who was hooked up to a “fruit machine” and lost his job, who should have had a pension, who should have had security, Yep, that we can deal with. A black person whose home was repossessed because someone came along with a redline in that neighbourhood, maybe we’ve got the documents for that too. That doesn’t justify compensation for people who resemble those victims of discrimination, whether they suffered to the same degree or not, or not at all. And it doesn’t justify withholding support from victims who do not resemble those specifically wronged individuals. If they fired gay people in Canada from the voodoo read outs of a cockamamie gay detector with no more scientific validity than a Scientologist’s “E Meter” or some good old Utah cold fusion, then they fired other people for dumb reasons too.

And to emphasize the point about history: we go after 90 year old Nazis. That’s good and ethical and possible because we can still find documentary evidence of specific wrongdoing. I’m open to an approach like that with other kinds of discrimination. But we’re not dividing the world into oppressors and oppressed based on physical resemblance and then deciding like the actual details of what happened to an individual don’t matter. My family tree shows some of my ancestors being exiled from England to Ireland. To whom do I write for the cheque?

With compensation in cash off the table, what about symbolic gestures?

I got an apology last year from my prime minister because...he was very sorry that he spent his own career fighting for equality?? Because when other people — who weren’t apologizing— held power, they screwed over other gay people? That apology would have meant something from Mulroney or Harper. But what would Trudeau have to apologize for? Appointing a gay cabinet minister. What would Chrétien have to apologize for? Legalizing equal marriage? What would Trudeau the elder have to apologize for? Decriminalizing us?

Some people see a difference between the accountability of the individual and say I’m missing the “Accountability of State” as though this is some separate concept. I can’t agree. An apology has to come from the wrongdoer for it to be meaningful and that’s someone specific who failed in their particular duties. The only apology I need from my country was them changing the law, bringing in the constitution, making a better way. That carries some weight.

Also that Coates is dead wrong about the value of “respectability.” He’s just totally wrong. Gay people have made the strides we did by showing ourselves to be part of civilization. We made the case.

 

[sixthson]

Where would one draw the line? Anyone who wasn't an able-bodied, middle class, heterosexual, white male might feel that they should be compensated by the state for perceived past or present wrongs.

I think we Norwegian Americans should get reparations from the government for allowing some dastardly villain to foist lutefisk on us. And lets not forget the poor Finnish immigrants, they have been the brunt of Finlander jokes for decades...they have become a laughing stock.
Uff da!

 

[TickTockMan]

It is an interesting idea.


I think healthcare for all though would be better though with a strong mental health program.

 

[rareboy]

Well,
if an American was damaged by the US government's policy,
yes the government should compensate that person.

I'm sure many are not damaged but some are.

This.

Where an individual was damaged by the state, the state has the obligation to compensate for damages. Otherwise, the state will never learn responsibility or culpability.

The apology, for instance, isn't about making hurt feelings go away, it is about establishing on the government record, on behalf of the state, a bulwark against such abuses happening against a class of citizens in the future.

Most homos in the US may have been generally 'hurt' by US policies, but there are a number who have literally suffered economic loss and enjoyment by the pernicious persecution by the State. If they can prove their loss, they should be compensated. Given the egregious tax break that the US has provided for the 1%, it isn't as though the reparations would have broken the bank.

But the US appears to never want to admit responsibility for any action.....as though the act of apologizing somehow is a sign of weakness and that the only way to look is forward because it means never having to say 'Sorry'.

Which is why we all know that apologies and reparations will never come.

And in the case of homos....I suspect that the lack of acknowledgment and apology is purposeful as many states and now the federal government set out to undo many of the civil rights gains won by LGBT citizens over the last 15 years.

 

[Alistair]

So, how does one prove that they are gay in order to receive a reparation should that happen?

The line starts here!

 

[peeonme]

The line starts here!

I remember when we had a war going in SE Asia and were drafting young men to go fight, many claimed to have "homosexual tendencies"
so they could avoid the draft.
I am sure that some would claim the same today if they thought it would get them some cash.

 

[Cormac135]

I remember when we had a war going in SE Asia and were drafting young men to go fight, many claimed to have "homosexual tendencies"
so they could avoid the draft.
I am sure that some would claim the same today if they thought it would get them some cash.

Will the bisexuals get their share as well.

 

[NotHardUp1]

If they do, they'll only get half.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

This.

Where an individual was damaged by the state, the state has the obligation to compensate for damages. Otherwise, the state will never learn responsibility or culpability.

The apology, for instance, isn't about making hurt feelings go away, it is about establishing on the government record, on behalf of the state, a bulwark against such abuses happening against a class of citizens in the future.

Most homos in the US may have been generally 'hurt' by US policies, but there are a number who have literally suffered economic loss and enjoyment by the pernicious persecution by the State. If they can prove their loss, they should be compensated. Given the egregious tax break that the US has provided for the 1%, it isn't as though the reparations would have broken the bank.

But the US appears to never want to admit responsibility for any action.....as though the act of apologizing somehow is a sign of weakness and that the only way to look is forward because it means never having to say 'Sorry'.

Which is why we all know that apologies and reparations will never come.

And in the case of homos....I suspect that the lack of acknowledgment and apology is purposeful as many states and now the federal government set out to undo many of the civil rights gains won by LGBT citizens over the last 15 years.

This.

Most people making jokes don’t seem to get this. I don’t know why anyone would be against reparations in the way you described it.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

No i don't need hand outs from anyone.

No one is asking what you need. You're the second person to "Well I'm fine so...." I think the proof is in the pudding, the older guys who grew up in more strict cultures did NOT come out unscathed, that's why so many of you are on all sorts of antidepressants antipsychotic and antianxiety meds. Yall are not ok, since the US govt has discriminated against us I don't see why this isn't being considered. The funds could be used for all sorts of social and health-oriented programs for a group of people that accounts for a disproportionate amount of HIV cases. That is to say if anyone other than yourself matters. :rolleyes;

The US govt has given "handouts" to all sorts of vulnerable people throughout history. I think honestly some of you older gays are angry that you had to hide who you are for so many years and didn't get to truly be yourself until you reached middle-age and you're bitter that our culture is different now. We deserve this. Shit, if you don't want your check give it to me Nah just kidding, you could donate your portion to an LGBT youth center or HIV research or prevention, or you can fold your arms across your chest and scoff that it isn't all about you, whichever your heart compels you to do.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

No, it’s ten kinds of nonsense. It’s unprincipled and worse it’s unworkable.

You don't think the govt should pay into programs that benefit LGBT? Are you not aware how many homeless gay teenagers are out there sucking dick for a place to lay their head at night? Police departments need training on dealing with domestic issues involving gay couples. Businesses need diversity training similar to what Starbucks is doing about the incident in Philly. Yall are so fucking short-sighted and self-absorbed I'm amazed you were able obtain driver's licences.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

This.

Most people making jokes don’t seem to get this. I don’t know why anyone would be against reparations in the way you described it.

Because I'm black so they think I just want a free check to buy some Jordans, throw a bbq party and buy a diamond-encrusted rainbow necklace. And a lot of them are bitter, as I said before the first opposition came from two older guys who grew up in a less tolerant time and I think they envy younger gay people who have been afforded more freedom of self-expression than they were.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

At least you didn't blame it on me being white.

Nah, there are white people who "get it," although a wiser man than me noted that white gays are a paradox, born into a country where you should by virtue of your white malehood be exempt from mistreatment so I believe it makes you feel closer to the cool kids table to take opposition to what you view as self-victimization. Still, I'm surprised at how narrow and selfish some of you are. This money could be used for housing for homeless LGBT, therapy, after-school programs for youth, mental and physical health programs, diversity training for business and police who are largely ignorant about our issues. There is so much work that needs to be done I don't know how anyone in good conscience could oppose this, albeit "conscience' would be the operative word.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Not broadly, but I do believe that every person whose life was actively ruined by the state through dismissal or confinement or blacklist or whatever has every right to sue the state for compensation. This includes discharges from the military, malicious persecution and confinement, firing from government posts, etc.

But it ain't ever going to happen in the US.

Canada has set aside reparations for service members, but that is about it.

I fucking knew I could count on you to see the bigger picture, werq sis.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

This.

Where an individual was damaged by the state, the state has the obligation to compensate for damages. Otherwise, the state will never learn responsibility or culpability.

The apology, for instance, isn't about making hurt feelings go away, it is about establishing on the government record, on behalf of the state, a bulwark against such abuses happening against a class of citizens in the future.

Most homos in the US may have been generally 'hurt' by US policies, but there are a number who have literally suffered economic loss and enjoyment by the pernicious persecution by the State. If they can prove their loss, they should be compensated. Given the egregious tax break that the US has provided for the 1%, it isn't as though the reparations would have broken the bank.

But the US appears to never want to admit responsibility for any action.....as though the act of apologizing somehow is a sign of weakness and that the only way to look is forward because it means never having to say 'Sorry'.

Which is why we all know that apologies and reparations will never come.

And in the case of homos....I suspect that the lack of acknowledgment and apology is purposeful as many states and now the federal government set out to undo many of the civil rights gains won by LGBT citizens over the last 15 years.

Bolded, people will get more upset over someone at the bottom of the totem pole getting crumbs than the people who sit at the top gorging on a buffet. Nobody even uses the words "welfare" or "handout" for the billions paid out to the obscenely wealthy. For reference just see any discussion about foodstamps.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

No....
....for alot of reasons....

The main one for me.....alot of the worst oppressors of gay men are other gay men who are self loathing and closeted.

Take a quick gander at the last five years of right wing anti gay religious politicians caught in bed...with men...and then go back a couple hundred years....

The damage they do is far worse..and more vicious....

I would rather they do reparations with their time and energy....like working with gay teens who are suicidal or homeless...because of people like them.

I urge you to consider how much more work could be done if these were govt-funded initiatives instead of just grassroots independent, self-funded programs that rely on the kindness of strangers or, as time has shown us, lack thereof.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Bolded, people will get more upset over someone at the bottom of the totem pole getting crumbs than the people who sit at the top gorging on a buffet. Nobody even uses the words "welfare" or "handout" for the billions paid out to the obscenely wealthy. For reference just see any discussion about foodstamps.

Great point.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Well,
if an American was damaged by the US government's policy,
yes the government should compensate that person.

I'm sure many are not damaged but some are.

Fuck, even Telly gets it. Well, until that last sentence. Many of us are damaged, medically, psychologically, some financially, emotionally, mentally, you'll never go broke selling condoms and prozac outside a gay night club. Fuck, I forgot to mention that the emotional anguish many gay men have suffered has left a lot of them running to addiction to cope so that needs to be an integral part of our reparations, rehabilitation.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Great point.

I wonder if these gals have even considered just how much homophobia has been written into law and/or sponsored by the US govt. Don't Ask Don't Tell and marriage equality was on the books til practically fucking yesterday, are we allowed to donate blood yet? How many assaults have been committed against LGBT and handled poorly after "gay panic defense" became an actual defense? It's too early for me to even think about all the ways the govt has given us the middle finger and I can't imagine the limitless ways they could fund programs that help to lift us up out of the dirt. The "I'm fine so this is unnecessary" crowd reeeeeeeeeeally haven't considered the magnitude of our problems and sorely-needed solutions.