On-Topic Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

[White Eagle]

I have been trying to figure out what is happening. I keep getting emails stating Snowden is right in what he is doing very few stating he is a traitor. The ones stating he is a traitor are those who I wouldn't believe if they said my pants were on fire. Today I got emails from BoldProgre​ssives & RootsActio​n Team, both stating to protect Snowden from the Government.
Those of you at JUB that are saying Snowden was right in what he did I will trust what you say. I think I have just made up my mind. Thanks.

 

[tigerfan482]

I am waiting for evidence, but I do not believe that the government will be forthcoming with evidence that it has not done these acts either. The information that have read discusses NSA facilities in several states that have the capabilities to download and store entire phone conversations, entire blocks of thousands of emails at a time, Thousands of banking transactions, and entire blocks of information and store it for retrieval later. Indiscriminate storage of all information for later retrieval does not tell me that my government is tracking suspected terrorists. Nor does it tell me that the government is not collecting conversations of my fellow citizens. The government has been sued by the ACLU demanding that the government disclose what information that they have collected on that Organization. The government has been proven to have lied to us in the past. Watergate, Iran Contra, Mission Accomplished, and the patriot act to name a few. The patriot act, was a wholesale revocation of individual rights. The idea that Americans have to give up individual rights to protect ourselves from terrorism is bullshit. The Patriot Act has done nothing identifiable to reduce terrorism, and if the government has any evidence, they have not shared that, which you would think they would want to do to show the citizens that these measures are working. If you evaluate the government only on Human Rights Violations, we probably don't have it too bad, unless of course you want to marry someone you love.

You do realize it is impossible to prove a negative right? That's why the Constitution requires innocence to be assumed and guilt to be proven. The burden should be on those who make an accusation to prove that the accusation is correct.

And did you know that Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Google, Apple, and numerous other companies already possess the capability to store all of that information you mention and more? I don't know why it's so hard to explain to people that just because something is technically capable of something doesn't mean that it is or ever will be used for doing that. Again, as I have said before, there has been no evidence produced at all that the government is storing all of the data in the world (or even any data on US citizens at all) in this data center.

Yes the government has been sued by the ACLU as have many organizations. What's the point? The lawsuit hasn't even been accepted by a court yet.

And several of your examples of being "lied to" aren't exactly what you claim. For instance, "Mission Accomplished" was a political speech George W. Bush made, but was not actually any official policy or promise to the American people. The Patriot Act was a piece of legislation that was available for anyone (including the voting members of Congress) to read. And out of a government that's over 220 years old (depending on what you considering the starting point of the government), I'd say it's a good track record given that fallible humans run the government, just like they run everything else.

And the Patriot Act doesn't require you to give up individual rights and I haven't seen anyone who has been able to show that their rights have been violated in any way or that they've lost any freedom at all. Of course the government isn't going to come out and say "we stopped a terrorist attack today by monitoring the phone calls in Pakistan of this individual" because you not only burn your methods of being able to get that information, but you tip off other terrorists and cause them to change their modes of behavior to avoid detection.

And I, for one, can go out and marry anyone I want right now. I'm sorry you live in a state you can't, but you could certainly move to a state where you are allowed to. I would consider that a violation of human rights though.

I have been trying to figure out what is happening. I keep getting emails stating Snowden is right in what he is doing very few stating he is a traitor. The ones stating he is a traitor are those who I wouldn't believe if they said my pants were on fire. Today I got emails from BoldProgre​ssives & RootsActio​n Team, both stating to protect Snowden from the Government.
Those of you at JUB that are saying Snowden was right in what he did I will trust what you say. I think I have just made up my mind. Thanks.

Do you really base your opinions of of what e-mails and people on JUB tell you? Go read the documentation provided, do some research on the laws and regulations, read up on the background of places like the NSA, etc. Ingest information and make your own decision. Don't go by what other people tell you think.

 

[palbert]

I have been trying to figure out what is happening. I keep getting emails stating Snowden is right in what he is doing very few stating he is a traitor. The ones stating he is a traitor are those who I wouldn't believe if they said my pants were on fire. Today I got emails from BoldProgre​ssives & RootsActio​n Team, both stating to protect Snowden from the Government.
Those of you at JUB that are saying Snowden was right in what he did I will trust what you say. I think I have just made up my mind. Thanks.

I trust you to make the judgment you think right - no matter what your decision is.

If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),

you will see that the US citizen's relief from proceedings incident to the Government's finding of a non-national security crime are burdensome, onerous, exhorbitantly expensive. Any relief is doomed to failure as the accused must establish that the evidence was "unlawfully acquired" or not acquired pursuant to the appropriate paperwork, all of which is conveniently secret. The Government should have to approve lawfulness.

I, personally, am sorry that Mr. Snowden had to take this course. But, I am glad he did: our Congresspersons seem not to have been minding the store.

 

[refujiunderground]

I suspect that very soon, he will just disappear. Literally.

yep, the plane will NOT make it to the destination.

 

[kallipolis]

Do you really base your opinions of of what e-mails and people on JUB tell you?

I don't....especially your theoretical reasoning that imagines all government employees never break the law and are Heaven bound as a result of their saintly lives.

 

[Kulindahr]

If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),

you will see that the US citizen's relief from proceedings incident to the Government's finding of a non-national security crime are burdensome, onerous, exhorbitantly expensive. Any relief is doomed to failure as the accused must establish that the evidence was "unlawfully acquired" or not acquired pursuant to the appropriate paperwork, all of which is conveniently secret. The Government should have to approve lawfulness.

Exactly. Laws all over the country also exempt goverment officials from doing actual harm so long as they claim they were endeavoring to do their jobs. The mere existence of such laws proves we have had rights taken away, because they allow authorities to detain, jail, and otherwise harm citizens with no recourse allowed.

"With liberty for the rich and the justice you can afford" is the truth.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't....especially your theoretical reasoning that imagines all government employees never break the law and are Heaven bound as a result of their saintly lives.

Heh -- yeah. Reading his posts is like qtching a "science fiction" movie where they obviously didn't have any advisors who grasped so much as middle school physics: the suspension of disbelief required is enormous... and disgusting.

 

[kallipolis]

Heh -- yeah. Reading his posts is like qtching a "science fiction" movie where they obviously didn't have any advisors who grasped so much as middle school physics: the suspension of disbelief required is enormous... and disgusting.

I believe he needs a prescription, prescribing a daily dosage of George Orwell's classics..beginning with 1984.

 

[kallipolis]

One of my favourite quotes from 1984:

Winston Smith: Does Big Brother even exist?

O'Brien: Of course he exists.

Winston Smith: No, I mean... does he exist like you or me?

O'Brien: You do not exist.

 

[White Eagle]

You do realize it is impossible to prove a negative right? That's why the Constitution requires innocence to be assumed and guilt to be proven. The burden should be on those who make an accusation to prove that the accusation is correct.

And did you know that Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Google, Apple, and numerous other companies already possess the capability to store all of that information you mention and more? I don't know why it's so hard to explain to people that just because something is technically capable of something doesn't mean that it is or ever will be used for doing that. Again, as I have said before, there has been no evidence produced at all that the government is storing all of the data in the world (or even any data on US citizens at all) in this data center.

Yes the government has been sued by the ACLU as have many organizations. What's the point? The lawsuit hasn't even been accepted by a court yet.

And several of your examples of being "lied to" aren't exactly what you claim. For instance, "Mission Accomplished" was a political speech George W. Bush made, but was not actually any official policy or promise to the American people. The Patriot Act was a piece of legislation that was available for anyone (including the voting members of Congress) to read. And out of a government that's over 220 years old (depending on what you considering the starting point of the government), I'd say it's a good track record given that fallible humans run the government, just like they run everything else.

And the Patriot Act doesn't require you to give up individual rights and I haven't seen anyone who has been able to show that their rights have been violated in any way or that they've lost any freedom at all. Of course the government isn't going to come out and say "we stopped a terrorist attack today by monitoring the phone calls in Pakistan of this individual" because you not only burn your methods of being able to get that information, but you tip off other terrorists and cause them to change their modes of behavior to avoid detection.

And I, for one, can go out and marry anyone I want right now. I'm sorry you live in a state you can't, but you could certainly move to a state where you are allowed to. I would consider that a violation of human rights though.


Do you really base your opinions of of what e-mails and people on JUB tell you? Go read the documentation provided, do some research on the laws and regulations, read up on the background of places like the NSA, etc. Ingest information and make your own decision. Don't go by what other people tell you think.

1. I don't go by what others say.
2. I really didn't say what my decision was. I said I trust what Jubbers say because I know their beliefs and how they lead their lives. And just look at Palbert's post #243. The ones I believe will show more of what they are going by. Palbert did just that.

palbert... If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),

I am going there right now.

 

[ArseYouLikeIt]

Ecuador appears to be the destination of choice for any "whistleblower" demanding that others accept responsibility for their actions, whilst refusing to do so themselves. Better to take off, do a runner, find some 3rd rate banana republic with a woeful record on democratic rights, there you can spend the rest of your life dodging the flies, dodging the military coups, trapped in the knowledge that you can never leave for fear of arrest and extradition....in some ways, this is a just punishment in itself.

 

[kallipolis]

Ecuador appears to be the destination of choice for any "whistleblower" demanding that others accept responsibility for their actions, whilst refusing to do so themselves. Better to take off, do a runner, find some 3rd rate banana republic with a woeful record on democratic rights, there you can spend the rest of your life dodging the flies, dodging the military coups, trapped in the knowledge that you can never leave for fear of arrest and extradition....in some ways, this is a just punishment in itself.

The final chapter of this saga has not been written...with the further thought that speculation serves no useful purpose ...other than to add to the sense of mystery that fuels this spy story worthy of John Le Carre at his very best.

 

[ArseYouLikeIt]

The final chapter of this saga has not been written...with the further thought that speculation serves no useful purpose ...other than to add to the sense of mystery that fuels this spy story worthy of John Le Carre at his very best.

Oh but I like John Le Carre

 

[kallipolis]

Oh but I like John Le Carre

Snap..........

 

[White Eagle]

I have to thank palbert for these links. I didn't read the Prism thread, therefore my problem in not figuring out what it is about. OH, BTW, I mentioned getting emails about protecting Snowden. I wasn't saying that I believed the emails. It's just who do you believe? The Congresscritters, generally GOP, whom I won't believe. Cheney? Right! It just adds to the confusion.
kallipolis and Kulindar and Sausy each bring up points to consider. Kulindar, whom I've had many PMs with about a lot of different subjects, I would trust his points. Sausy and I differ on some things, but I'm with him on this subject. kallipolis is someone else I trust. I see Kulindahr brought up the police state once in these links. It seems you are indifferent about what is being done with NSA. You, it seems, are the type that will be surprised when the police state becomes a fact. I have looked into these "police actions" from Calif to NYC. There are many instances of police wrongdoing. Someone HAS to step up and confront why this happens. A lot of these "police actions" are allowed to happen.
So, yes, I am taking into consideration what these jubbers are saying. Altho I am not letting this make my decisions. It's just the people who think Snowden is the traitor are the ones that I have trouble believing.

 

[ArseYouLikeIt]

^ If you`re so concerned about "Police states" why don't you appear to care that first Assange and now Snowden are seeking refuge in Ecuador?

 

[kallipolis]

^ If you`re so concerned about "Police states" why don't you appear to care that first Assange and now Snowden are seeking refuge in Ecuador?

According to information provided by the CIA Ecuador is a democratic state but, I am happy to be corrected if some one has information that indicates otherwise.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ec.html

 

[Lostlover]

Not irrelevant at all. You provide no proof of a loss of any rights or liberties yet you complain constantly about it. It's because you don't know what losing rights and liberties is because you've never experienced it. Try going to a friendly middle east country (Qatar for instance.) Try being gay there. Try saying what you think about the government there. Try having a muscle magazine on you when you enter the country. And this is one of the more westernized countries out there. So what I'm actually saying is that you need to get a perspective on what it is you're complaining about before you actually start complaining because it's very possible you're complaint isn't really valid.

And what are you talking about with courts and police lying to you?

Ain't that the truth. Kuli, what will you do to support Snowden besides just offering words on the internet? You're talking about liberties but still can't bring yourself to stop using Google, who is complicit in this all because they gave your private information to the government.

You can't have your Google and bitch about liberty too.

You're no different than a lady I used to work with. She complained about her husband taking the family money and using it for things he shouldn't. When people brought up the idea that she should move out and give him an ultimatum, she shot back that that "wasn't the right thing to do."

Moving out was the right thing to do. She just likes having conflict and being the lady with the screwed up home life: one to pity. That's part of her identity. As long as she gets sympathy at work, she's fine. It's no different with you and your cause of "liberty and freedom." Just like this lady, when it comes to stopping the problem (for you ceasing to use Google, Microsoft, and Apple), you refuse to do it, because if you did, you'd no longer have a cause celebre. And you also like Google too damn much to match your words with actions.

 

[tigerfan482]

I trust you to make the judgment you think right - no matter what your decision is.

If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),

you will see that the US citizen's relief from proceedings incident to the Government's finding of a non-national security crime are burdensome, onerous, exhorbitantly expensive. Any relief is doomed to failure as the accused must establish that the evidence was "unlawfully acquired" or not acquired pursuant to the appropriate paperwork, all of which is conveniently secret. The Government should have to approve lawfulness.

I, personally, am sorry that Mr. Snowden had to take this course. But, I am glad he did: our Congresspersons seem not to have been minding the store.

The relief from any such evidence is no more burdensome than any other relief that is sought in court. And any crime someone is charged with requires the government to prove the person is guilty, not for the person to prove they are innocent. Further, any evidence introduced as evidence of guilt is required to be provided to the defense for rebuttal.

I don't....especially your theoretical reasoning that imagines all government employees never break the law and are Heaven bound as a result of their saintly lives.

My "theoretical reasoning" will stand at that until your or any of your kind show any evidence that government employees have broken the law. We operate on an innocent until proven guilty system of government here.

Exactly. Laws all over the country also exempt goverment officials from doing actual harm so long as they claim they were endeavoring to do their jobs. The mere existence of such laws proves we have had rights taken away, because they allow authorities to detain, jail, and otherwise harm citizens with no recourse allowed.

"With liberty for the rich and the justice you can afford" is the truth.

Do you have evidence of any of your claims? Again, there is a lot of rhetoric here and lofty claims with no substantive proof of anything.

Heh -- yeah. Reading his posts is like qtching a "science fiction" movie where they obviously didn't have any advisors who grasped so much as middle school physics: the suspension of disbelief required is enormous... and disgusting.

1. I don't go by what others say.
2. I really didn't say what my decision was. I said I trust what Jubbers say because I know their beliefs and how they lead their lives. And just look at Palbert's post #243. The ones I believe will show more of what they are going by. Palbert did just that.

I am going there right now.

Yes please read that. I never claimed that you had made up your mind. However, I clearly reference what I am going by in my posts as well. I invite you to read through both this and the linked thread.

 

[tigerfan482]

The final chapter of this saga has not been written...with the further thought that speculation serves no useful purpose ...other than to add to the sense of mystery that fuels this spy story worthy of John Le Carre at his very best.

Every post you've made in here has been nothing but speculation. You're speculation's best friend.

I have to thank palbert for these links. I didn't read the Prism thread, therefore my problem in not figuring out what it is about. OH, BTW, I mentioned getting emails about protecting Snowden. I wasn't saying that I believed the emails. It's just who do you believe? The Congresscritters, generally GOP, whom I won't believe. Cheney? Right! It just adds to the confusion.
kallipolis and Kulindar and Sausy each bring up points to consider. Kulindar, whom I've had many PMs with about a lot of different subjects, I would trust his points. Sausy and I differ on some things, but I'm with him on this subject. kallipolis is someone else I trust. I see Kulindahr brought up the police state once in these links. It seems you are indifferent about what is being done with NSA. You, it seems, are the type that will be surprised when the police state becomes a fact. I have looked into these "police actions" from Calif to NYC. There are many instances of police wrongdoing. Someone HAS to step up and confront why this happens. A lot of these "police actions" are allowed to happen.
So, yes, I am taking into consideration what these jubbers are saying. Altho I am not letting this make my decisions. It's just the people who think Snowden is the traitor are the ones that I have trouble believing.

Again, can you (or anyone you named) present ANY BIT OF EVIDENCE that any of these police state actions have actually occurred? Everything that they have posted has been nothing BUT speculation on what the NSA does and does not do. I get it. They don't know and they're scared. It's ok to be scared of the unknown. But there has been no proof provided that NSA engages in any of these activities against Americans at all. They, like the news media, has taken the small amount of information they have received about the existence of a technical capability, and have filled in the remainder of the story they tell with what they personally believe is bing done without any proof to back it up. And if you notice, it's the libertarian folks who are screaming the loudest because they started off with a preconceived notion of the government being out to get them. This is why the majority of the public doesn't care.

According to information provided by the CIA Ecuador is a democratic state but, I am happy to be corrected if some one has information that indicates otherwise.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ec.html

According to the CIA, the United States is a democratic state, so what's wrong with bringing him here to answer for the crimes "he had no intent of hiding from"?