Faggotty Me!

[NineOfClubs]

Actually, I am not working at the moment, so it would be impossible to answer your question. The last time I was in an office environment was before I was actually Out.

So, let's move on ...

I'm sure you'd like to "move on".

Because you've never had the guts, the balls, to be yourself in front of others who were different, unlike the OP, and most of the rest of us.

You've got a long way to go, baby....

 

[Apollo]

Have you taken a look in the "Would you rather be straight" thread? You will notice that a majority of Gays that voted would still rather be straight than Gay. Again, we have the current negative Gay stereotypes associated with being Gay to thank for that.

That has made coming out so much more difficult than it really should be in this day and age.

That is more that being gay acting your definition of normal or not is hard.

A lot of people would rather just act societies definition of normal, which is liking the opposite sex, and be done with it.

You're not acting normal as long as you actively like or fuck men.

 

[Apollo]

Wrong Answer.

A straight is much more likely to sit down with someone who acts more normal, as opposed to the flaming Drag Queen.

Case and point with myself and my homophobic friends I have been friends with for years before coming out. Now, they are perfectly fine with me after I sat down like a rationale person and talked to them about homosexuality.

Not true at all. I know many straight men who will sit down next to a feminine guy and be perfectly fine. You're idea that all straight men hate feminine guys is ludicrous and stupid. Most straight guys don't care if a gay guy is feminine or not.

If a guy is a homophobe, he is homophobic for different reasons, and seeing some straight acting gay isn't going to change his mind.

And if your homophobic friends had sat down with a feminine guy, the reaction would be the same. Most likely they weren't homophobic and just didn't know that they had a gay guy for a friend, so they felt self making gay jokes.

 

[StationToStation]

The whole premise of this thread is what throws me off a bit...

Having met StationToStation many times, I don't think he really gives of a gay vibe...

Maybe if I ran into him while he's working -- but not "normal day" stuff...

Oh well -- most people have better gaydar than I do anyways...

^I did want to make it clear, since it's a bits a foggy like you mentioned^

I wasn't wearing make-up that day on the train, I merely was wearing my "uniform" I wear to work as a highly in demand make-up artist, which is all black clothing. Black wool pants (sad that one can still wear wool trousers in July here in Portland, uh?), a black cotton dress shirt, with black socks, shoes and a belt.

This reminds me, I need to watch my DVD on upcoming fall trends, one of the major cosmetic companies gave me last week.

As for men wearing make-up, our Founding Fathers wore make-up, the French royalty wore make-up, the Egyptian Kings wore make-up, traditionally men have worn make-up longer than women. Know your history, please.

 

[treanir]

As for men wearing make-up, our Founding Fathers wore make-up, the French royalty wore make-up, the Egyptian Kings wore make-up, traditionally men have worn make-up longer than women. Know your history, please.

And they're all dead! See, that's why men should never wear make-up: they will die!

 

[IcarusBurns]

I'm sure you'd like to "move on".

Because you've never had the guts, the balls, to be yourself in front of others who were different, unlike the OP, and most of the rest of us.

You've got a long way to go, baby....

Oh my god, will you shut up? You are being so obnoxious and rude. The way you are talking makes you seem like you expect all gays to be queeny and loud or else they aren't welcome in to your "community". Your holier-than-thou attitude is not appreciated.

 

[IcarusBurns]

I don't care if anyone is militant, I just care if they are being assholes about it.

 

[fetaby]

Icarus, I'm being lazy. Would you care to discuss your views again on this thread.

 

[honooryuu]

i dont fit the stereotypes either, and i really try not to be. but im not going to change myself for someone else. if they dont like me for who i am then they can fuck themselves. i agree with most of the posters in this thread. be who you are and dont change unless you want to change.

 

[71390S]

Yeah. I agree. No gay man should feel like he NEEDS to make the effort to be feminine and be a stereotype to fit in with the gay community.

So is it not contradictory to say that a male who is naturally inclined to be more feminine should NEED to make the effort to act against his nature and be er, "butch?"

Sounds an awful like those who tell gays they should make the effort to be straight. *shrugs* Just pondering, not pointing fingers.

 

[Rex]

I don't think it's the liking men thing that makes some people uneasy. It's breaking gender roles.

Lots of guys I've talked to said they don't care if someone is gay but they never understood why they have to act a certain way. I guess I can understand it but everyone should still just do what makes them happy but be ready to face hate.

 

[71390S]

^ Word!

I posted this in another thread that touched on men and gender roles:

Our culture is extremely uncomfortable with males who violate male gender roles/norms/expectations. Notice how it's all good for women to wear pants, or a little girl to play with a tractor. But if lil Jimmy wants to be a princess, uh oh he might be queer. Being a gay MALE (even though it is a sexuality and not gender) violates male gender roles. It doesn't matter how masculine the gay man is, he will still be put in the "feminine" categorey. I think this speaks volumes about our society's attitude towards the feminine.

 

[Rex]

^ Word!

I posted this in another thread that touched on men and gender roles:

Our culture is extremely uncomfortable with males who violate male gender roles/norms/expectations. Notice how it's all good for women to wear pants, or a little girl to play with a tractor. But if lil Jimmy wants to be a princess, uh oh he might be queer. Being a gay MALE (even though it is a sexuality and not gender) violates male gender roles. It doesn't matter how masculine the gay man is, he will still be put in the "feminine" categorey. I think this speaks volumes about our society's attitude towards the feminine.

I don't think this is true.

First of all, if a girl wears pants and plays with a tractor that won't get much attention but if you see a grown woman that's a total bull dyke and macho you better believe she will get some scrutiny for it but you'll find that the lipstick lesbo will have a much easier time dealing with society.

Not saying this is right or wrong but it's true.

As for a masculine gay guy, I also think the macho "straight acting" ones have a much easier time being accepted and less threatening to others but yes there are certain people that are so homophobic that it won't matter but the ones who "flaunt" their sexuality usually face the most hate and negative attention.

 

[71390S]

Well sure, anyone, male or female who violates a gender role will get flack. But for example women can wear pants and dresses/skirts (and we all know women wearing pants used to be a huge tabboo) but men can't get away with that (unless you're in scotland, maybe haha). In general I think gender roles for men are much more rigid, and inspire sexism/homophobia against gay/bi/straight men alike.

 

[fetaby]

Well sure, anyone, male or female who violates a gender role will get flack. But for example women can wear pants and dresses/skirts (and we all know women wearing pants used to be a huge tabboo) but men can't get away with that (unless you're in scotland, maybe haha). In general I think gender roles for men are much more rigid, and inspire sexism/homophobia against gay/bi/straight men alike.

Alright here we go. It has been said here that the feminine stereotype created by those rigid gender roles has made the coming out process for masculine gays more difficult. Do you believe this is true?

Either way I agree with what your saying in the above quote. So my question for you is, how do we go about changing that? I'm not a fem. I have some qualities, but for the most part it's not me. However, I can see much appeal to the practicality and ease of such a garment as a skirt. It'd be great on hot days, and when you really got to pee. And if your the promiscuous sort the advantages are apparant.

So how about it? How long will it be before I can wear a skirt?

 

[saymyname]

While I find it unfortunate that Icarus registered just to show support for Mystik's viewpoint, I will agree with him that you need to chill out some, for your own continued presence on the forums if nothing else.

This isn't the first time my posts have been deleted on the forums. Sometimes I get too emotionally involved and the moderators can't handle the radical delivery of my radical viewpoints. However, if I'm calling someone sexist, it's because he IS sexist. He's associating fem guys with negativity and femininity in general with negativity and being "less than" masculine men. His is a straw man argument based on fear, based on becoming part of the group and the majority as opposed to abolishing the structures in society that make it possible for others to be born privileged over a smaller group to begin with. It's a shame my post was deleted because, despite the personal attacks (which I wrote because the hate he is spewing is a personal attack itself), I was spot on. He's oppressive. He wants all gay people to act "normal" and be normalized and assimilated. That is not what our movement is about and that's not what Harry Hay fought for. It's disgusting.

 

[undisclosed1234]

I can see both sides of this argument.

For my own part, I think there's something endearing about an effeminate man, as long as he's not a screamer.

And that's fine. To each his own as they say.

Personally I dislike effeminate guys. I would never feel attracted to one and when it comes to being friends I have a few acquaintances (friends of friends) but I find myself having little to nothing in common with them that can last past 1-minute chitchat at a party. In those cases it's just as big of an extreme as punk goths in terms of the exterior defining the interior; that's been my experience. I don't think they're lesser gays or should force themselves to act more masculine if that's their real selves (some just put on a show).

I just dont see how that makes me a self-hating mo or a traitor to some rainbow cause which seems to #1 accusation when someone shares this opinion.

 

[71390S]

Alright here we go. It has been said here that the feminine stereotype created by those rigid gender roles has made the coming out process for masculine gays more difficult. Do you believe this is true?

Either way I agree with what your saying in the above quote. So my question for you is, how do we go about changing that? I'm not a fem. I have some qualities, but for the most part it's not me. However, I can see much appeal to the practicality and ease of such a garment as a skirt. It'd be great on hot days, and when you really got to pee. And if your the promiscuous sort the advantages are apparant.

So how about it? How long will it be before I can wear a skirt?

I think rigid gender roles make it 'hard' for all types of people to come out. And yeah that includes 'masculine' gay men. Because then they are shoved in the feminine categorey (despite not being girly) and have to battle society's notion of what a gay man is like. And all too often I see their frustration and anger become focused on feminie gay men, instead of the real culprit: Our cultures gender roles for males.

How should we change it? Great question. At the moment all I can think of is persistence over time. Gender variant people (both gay and straight - and bi!) are becoming less ashamed of being who they are. GLBT people are too. The more people get "used to it" the more acceptable they will become. In one of my classes I learned that the best way for people to overcome bigotry is to work on something with the person who they are bigoted against, kind of like a bonding thing. I hope we can have the chance wear skirts soon without being looked down on

 

[MystikWizard]

This isn't the first time my posts have been deleted on the forums. Sometimes I get too emotionally involved and the moderators can't handle the radical delivery of my radical viewpoints. However, if I'm calling someone sexist, it's because he IS sexist. He's associating fem guys with negativity and femininity in general with negativity and being "less than" masculine men. His is a straw man argument based on fear, based on becoming part of the group and the majority as opposed to abolishing the structures in society that make it possible for others to be born privileged over a smaller group to begin with. It's a shame my post was deleted because, despite the personal attacks (which I wrote because the hate he is spewing is a personal attack itself), I was spot on. He's oppressive. He wants all gay people to act "normal" and be normalized and assimilated. That is not what our movement is about and that's not what Harry Hay fought for. It's disgusting.

I was going to simply let the thread die, but I see others wanted to keep it going.

Firstly, my attitudes and opinions that you have a problem with, are directly reflective of the enemy camp. However, I am willing to look at what their concerns are and what makes Heterosexuals afraid of Gays, and then come to conclusions about what is helping/hurting the Movement.

You, however, would rather say "Fuck what everyone else thinks. I don't give a damn and I am going to do whatever the Hell I want to do."

You claim that I am using personal attacks, however have difficulty comprehending that I am not singling posters out in the discussions. That is not a personal attack. What I am doing is critiquing and providing my analysis for why the Gay Rights Movement is taking longer than it should. I am not insulting anyone, unlike yourself and what you did in your last post in this thread.

Well, when 90% of the population who is Heterosexual makes rules for people like you, perhaps a less confrontational attitude may be a better approach. You are owed nothing at this point in time. You are entitled to nothing at this point in time. We would like to alter the marriage laws in the country, and ensure that equal benefits are provided to same sex spouses, but there are no laws currently in place that mandates any of that. So why you would rather piss off the people who can make all of that possible, is really beyond me.

You talk about me being oppressive ... in terms of getting ahead in the world, absolutely not. I want Gays to succeed just like everyone else who is Gay. And the handful that do go out and make a name for themselves, more power to them. However, have you noticed that the ones who do, more often than not, do so by respecting the norms of society?

Respecting the social norms of society is not being oppressive. You don't see very many heterosexuals going out and trying to draw attention to themselves, because they are straight. Why do you feel like you are so special, just because you are Gay? Being Gay is really nothing Special, at all. We are at a point in the World's history, where society still is not fully convinced that sexuality isn't a choice. So instead of dressing in drag and purposefully acting overly effeminate to draw unnecessary attention to ourselves ... how about we instead show Straights that we can respect the social norms of society just like they can?

As discussed, people like other people they can relate to. Are straights more likely to relate to Joe Shmo who respects the social norms and behaves normal in every way, but has a Gay Orientation? Or are they more likely to sit down and relate to Glamorella, the Dildo Carrying Drag Queen?

You don't want to pay attention to that, but it is true. And the sooner people with your combative mentality understands that, the quicker Gay Rights will progress and the quicker homophobia will disappear.

And those social norms aren't simply exclusive because one is Gay. A straight person in public would simply feel very uneasy around another Straight Guy who would be wearing a dress in public, or would be less likely to relate to a Straight guy who is intentionally trying to draw attention to himself in a manner that violates social norms.

As far as the Movement you spoke about, and claiming that "this isn't what our Movement is about" ..... as I understand it, the Primary Movement is about Gay Rights and Tolerance. The best way to encourage Tolerance is by being able to relate to the masses. I am 100% convinced this would have a much more positive, rapid impact than advocating what you are advocating .... which is dragging out the goal of the Movement which again is Tolerance.

You aren't the majority here. You can't do what you want or behave the way you necessarily want and expect the public to accept it, much less embrace it. You need to correctly view the issue through the eyes of your opponents in order to come to a conclusion about the appropriate steps to take. Which you don't seem willing to do.

I preach Individualism and encourage a colorless society in my desire to see negative stereotypes go away. However, at no point did I advocate violating social norms in the process, nor claim that this was the way to go. What I mean by Individualism is my desire not to see Gays all lumped in the same category with the same ideas, same religious principles, same interests, same Political Ideologies, etc.

When you are viewed as Godless sinners by those strong in their faith, and then are out in the streets violating social norms, dressing and behaving like the opposite sex, carrying sex toys in the street .... then how can you possibly wonder why those group of people don't support you?

 

[Rex]

Not true at all. I know many straight men who will sit down next to a feminine guy and be perfectly fine. You're idea that all straight men hate feminine guys is ludicrous and stupid. Most straight guys don't care if a gay guy is feminine or not.

If a guy is a homophobe, he is homophobic for different reasons, and seeing some straight acting gay isn't going to change his mind.

And if your homophobic friends had sat down with a feminine guy, the reaction would be the same. Most likely they weren't homophobic and just didn't know that they had a gay guy for a friend, so they felt self making gay jokes.

I completely disagree.

Some straight guys who aren't homophobic at all won't have any problem with fem guys but I've seen and heard MANY who tell me that they don't care if someone is gay but they never understood why so and so has to act like a woman, etc.

It's not just the having sex with men that makes them uneasy but the gender role barrier thing just makes them MORE uncomfortable.

For example, my friends who are pretty much all homophobic get disgusted when they see a fem guy flaming it up but when they found out Niel Patrick Harris, who they likes, was gay (we were watching "Harold and Kumar") they didn't really have anything bad to say about it and I'm sure it's because he comes off as a "normal", non queer acting gay guy. If the gay thing doesn't come up at the forefront of knowing someone and they end up liking the guy as a friend before they find out he's gay, they are more likely to be accepting.

When most homophobes think of gay men, they immediately think of the flaming, loud queen stereotype and that is threatening to them and makes them uncomfortable. They are less likely to associate themselves with a person like that, but when they meet a guy who they don't know is gay at first because he's "like them" and then the guy comes out to them they are more likely to become open minded because they start to think outside the stereotype.