Faggotty Me!

[saymyname]

I was going to simply let the thread die, but I see others wanted to keep it going.

Firstly, my attitudes and opinions that you have a problem with, are directly reflective of the enemy camp. However, I am willing to look at what their concerns are and what makes Heterosexuals afraid of Gays, and then come to conclusions about what is helping/hurting the Movement.

You, however, would rather say "Fuck what everyone else thinks. I don't give a damn and I am going to do whatever the Hell I want to do."

You claim that I am using personal attacks, however have difficulty comprehending that I am not singling posters out in the discussions. That is not a personal attack. What I am doing is critiquing and providing my analysis for why the Gay Rights Movement is taking longer than it should. I am not insulting anyone, unlike yourself and what you did in your last post in this thread.

You're setting the gay rights movement back. Stonewall happened by gay men, butch dykes, trans people, drag queens, 'freaks' and those pushed to the edge of society because of the social norms that YOU wish to uphold. We shouldn't be fighting to uphold these social norms, we should abolish them.

Well, when 90% of the population who is Heterosexual makes rules for people like you, perhaps a less confrontational attitude may be a better approach. You are owed nothing at this point in time. You are entitled to nothing at this point in time. We would like to alter the marriage laws in the country, and ensure that equal benefits are provided to same sex spouses, but there are no laws currently in place that mandates any of that. So why you would rather piss off the people who can make all of that possible, is really beyond me.

You seem to be under the impression that ALL straight people are, like yourself, STUCK IN THE 1950'S. You don't have to be gay or queer to support social liberalism. I AM owed my rights and I AM entitled to my rights as a citizen, I'm not going to tow the line and pretend I'm the same as straight Protestant couples with a white picket fence because I'm not. But just because I'm different and have different views and a different lifestyle doesn't mean I shouldn't have the same rights. Do you think when black people were fighting for their rights, they kept trying to "act white"? Read some Malcolm X. They stopped conking their hair. Our differences should be celebrated and respected, not invisiblized, which is what you're suggesting.

You talk about me being oppressive ... in terms of getting ahead in the world, absolutely not. I want Gays to succeed just like everyone else who is Gay. And the handful that do go out and make a name for themselves, more power to them. However, have you noticed that the ones who do, more often than not, do so by respecting the norms of society?

Umm, no. You're absolutely wrong. The most famous GLBT people have always been people who subvert and push boundaries. David Bowie, Prince, Allen Ginsberg, Wilde, so many gay writers and poets, so many gay musicians. Maybe you aren't an internalized homophobe (big maybe), but if you think a smart way to go about getting respect and rights is to assimilate into the status quo, we're not fighting for the same thing. People should be allowed to be who they are and act how they feel, do what they want - liberation. You're suggesting we drop anything that makes us stand out, just so we're respected by bigots. They'll still call you a faggot when you walk out of the room. There's that old saying, I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for what I am not.

Respecting the social norms of society is not being oppressive.
Are you joking? Tell that to black people during the civil rights movement. Tell that to Women. Tell that to gay people who don't live in gay friendly areas. Tell that to trans people. Social norms are extremely pervasive and oppressive. Read Foucault.


You don't see very many heterosexuals going out and trying to draw attention to themselves, because they are straight. Why do you feel like you are so special, just because you are Gay? Being Gay is really nothing Special, at all. We are at a point in the World's history, where society still is not fully convinced that sexuality isn't a choice. So instead of dressing in drag and purposefully acting overly effeminate to draw unnecessary attention to ourselves ... how about we instead show Straights that we can respect the social norms of society just like they can?

Straight people don't have to draw attention to themselves because there is nothing interesting or political about being straight. Maybe gay people aren't 'special' per se, but I think overcoming extreme amounts of adversity is something to be proud of. The amount of things we've accomplished - no thanks to people like you - in spite of our oppression is incredible. As for drag, drag is a form of expression, drag is a performance art, drag is often very political. You clearly don't know very much about drag. Your desire to uphold gender norms is rather terrifying. You're arguing for the kind of straight society where gay people are recuced to the bitch and the butch. I don't want to fucking MIRROR STRAIGHT SOCIETY! I want to smash the mirror! Get it! Straights can respect the social norms of society because their bodies are not the center of political struggles! They create and perpetuate the social norms that oppress us. Allies are with us in transforming those norms, or abolishing them altogether. You know, at one time, divorce wasn't normal, using birth control wasn't normal, women working out of the home wasn't normal, interracial relationships weren't normal. Is that what you'd prefer, that no one ever fights to disturb the way things are? Fuck that...

As discussed, people like other people they can relate to. Are straights more likely to relate to Joe Shmo who respects the social norms and behaves normal in every way, but has a Gay Orientation? Or are they more likely to sit down and relate to Glamorella, the Dildo Carrying Drag Queen?

WHO CARES? Glamorella has a right to exist just as much as Joe Shmo. You're a social fascist, dude. Plain and simple. Have you ever been in a big city, ever, in your entire life???

You don't want to pay attention to that, but it is true. And the sooner people with your combative mentality understands that, the quicker Gay Rights will progress and the quicker homophobia will disappear.

Yeah, a watered down form of rights and equality that says you can be a butt fucking faggot and get married, but don't you dare express how you feel. If you impersonate us, and 'behave', then you can be free. What a deal!

And those social norms aren't simply exclusive because one is Gay. A straight person in public would simply feel very uneasy around another Straight Guy who would be wearing a dress in public, or would be less likely to relate to a Straight guy who is intentionally trying to draw attention to himself in a manner that violates social norms.

I feel UNCOMFORTABLE around MACHO straight men ALL THE TIME! And what are they doing, besides upholding their social norm as alpha male!? I'd rather be sitting next to a guy in a dress on the subway than a fucking skinhead, but which one is more common?

As far as the Movement you spoke about, and claiming that "this isn't what our Movement is about" ..... as I understand it, the Primary Movement is about Gay Rights and Tolerance. The best way to encourage Tolerance is by being able to relate to the masses. I am 100% convinced this would have a much more positive, rapid impact than advocating what you are advocating .... which is dragging out the goal of the Movement which again is Tolerance.

I am advocating total social freedom and sexual freedom. Your idea of equality is for gay people who pass as straight. Or force themselves to. It does nothing for people at the margins of society - gay youth, queers of color, trans people, artists, lower class queer people. You want to uphold the pillars of society that perpetuate inequality and oppression, I want to abolish it. You call for "tolerance" ... since when is tolerance such a fucking privilege? If someone walked around saying "I don't like ____ people, but I tolerate them" would you call that equality? Tolerance has a connotation that the majority has to "put up with" our behavior. They have to 'tolerate' us. Fuck that. I don't want to be tolerated, I want to fuck shit up.

You aren't the majority here. You can't do what you want or behave the way you necessarily want and expect the public to accept it, much less embrace it. You need to correctly view the issue through the eyes of your opponents in order to come to a conclusion about the appropriate steps to take. Which you don't seem willing to do.

Clearly. I'm not willing to sacrifice my entire vision for a bullshit semblance of freedom.

I preach Individualism and encourage a colorless society in my desire to see negative stereotypes go away. However, at no point did I advocate violating social norms in the process, nor claim that this was the way to go. What I mean by Individualism is my desire not to see Gays all lumped in the same category with the same ideas, same religious principles, same interests, same Political Ideologies, etc.

I have no problem with your individualism, but if you really supported that you wouldn't be calling for all non-straight (and straight alike) to act what you consider to be the 'norm'. And yeah, you promote a colorless society where no one celebrates their diversities or their differences, whereas I promote a society where we do see each other's differences, and we're okay with that. 'Violating' social norms is the only way things ever change.

When you are viewed as Godless sinners by those strong in their faith, and then are out in the streets violating social norms, dressing and behaving like the opposite sex, carrying sex toys in the street .... then how can you possibly wonder why those group of people don't support you?

It does NOT MATTER if we're celebrating the ability to have sex shops or embracing gender fluidity in the streets to these people. No matter what, they will view you as a GODLESS SINNER and they will think you are going to hell. Go ahead and be a nice, white, middle class "unoffensive" type of faggot who tries to lick the status quo's ass in order to be GRANTED your rights. The rest of us will form alliances with people calling for actual freedom. Go back to the 50's, you're outdated and unnecessary.

 

[bankside]

Not really. The Cosmetics industry already knows what it is and who it primarily appeals to. It is an industry where its customers tries to disguise or beautify their true selves. However, at the same time, this is an industry that caters to women. It is not the norm for men to wear makeup. Therefore, why do Flamboyant Queens feel the need to be the exception to the rule to stand out, and draw attention to themselves?

This is exactly my point: there is no rule.

Get it? No Rule. It is not the norm for men to wear makeup. It is usually not their habit or their pass-time. It is also not illegal for a reason. In a free world, people can smear pigmented wax on their face if they want to. They can simultaneously expect equality. Women do.

And please don't cop out and say you are speaking metaphorically; you really do want to pretend this is an actual rule, so I'm taking your point at face value.

 

[saymyname]

A lot of men today wear eye liner and use facial products.

Face it, Mystik, you have no argument. You're old hat. Your generation is dying.

 

[IcarusBurns]

I completely disagree.

Some straight guys who aren't homophobic at all won't have any problem with fem guys but I've seen and heard MANY who tell me that they don't care if someone is gay but they never understood why so and so has to act like a woman, etc.

It's not just the having sex with men that makes them uneasy but the gender role barrier thing just makes them MORE uncomfortable.

For example, my friends who are pretty much all homophobic get disgusted when they see a fem guy flaming it up but when they found out Niel Patrick Harris, who they likes, was gay (we were watching "Harold and Kumar") they didn't really have anything bad to say about it and I'm sure it's because he comes off as a "normal", non queer acting gay guy. If the gay thing doesn't come up at the forefront of knowing someone and they end up liking the guy as a friend before they find out he's gay, they are more likely to be accepting.

When most homophobes think of gay men, they immediately think of the flaming, loud queen stereotype and that is threatening to them and makes them uncomfortable. They are less likely to associate themselves with a person like that, but when they meet a guy who they don't know is gay at first because he's "like them" and then the guy comes out to them they are more likely to become open minded because they start to think outside the stereotype.

I totally agree. You just pretty much summed up my entire argument. If anyone thinks that flamers aren't more likely to inspire homophobia, they are just lying to themselves. Plain and simple.

 

[saymyname]

I totally agree. You just pretty much summed up my entire argument. If anyone thinks that flamers aren't more likely to inspire homophobia, they are just lying to themselves. Plain and simple.

Well, we'll stop protecting our flamboyant gay friends when they stop supporting their macho, hypermasculine (flamboyant = over the top) straight men. Not going to happen.

 

[MystikWizard]

A lot of men today wear eye liner and use facial products.

Face it, Mystik, you have no argument. You're old hat. Your generation is dying.

My generation is dying? I'm in my early 30's and am a Gen X'er. Gen X'ers are hardly dying anytime soon. We still have 40-50 years of our lives to vote. Not that I am voting against issues that are of interest to Gays, because I am very supportive of Gay Rights.

However, that does not mean that Heterosexual Gen X'ers are as progressive as myself. I understand that and understand the obstacles involved, where as clearly you could care less and to be frank, demonstrate a degree of immaturity.

So again, I never knew that early 30's was "old". Interesting.

As far as your claims to my not having an "argument" .... that is nothing more than an ineffective psychological ploy that has no effect on me whatsoever. So save your breath. I have elaborated to great extent my concerns of overly Effeminate Queens, who purposely do their thing for attention.

And I will say this much. Just because you may hear things that you may not want to hear, that doesn't make the argument invalid. What that represents is a maturity and a denial problem you have with the reality of the situation.

I will issue a response to your lengthier post tomorrow. Until then, I am off to bed.

 

[IcarusBurns]

I don't like over the top straight men either. They annoy the hell out of me. I don't see you point, SMN.

 

[IcarusBurns]

I don't like over the top straight men either. They annoy the hell out of me. I don't see your point, SMN.

 

[ljghba1]

I totally agree. You just pretty much summed up my entire argument. If anyone thinks that flamers aren't more likely to inspire homophobia, they are just lying to themselves. Plain and simple.

but what everyone is trying to say, i believe, is that until we as a people can move passed all this bigotry and hatred and instead use love and understanding of all different types of people can we truly get passed all this negativity...its people like you that are hindering this process...gay or straight it doesn't matter...it takes one person at a time...which side would you choose...hatred or love of all of mankind? you need to get passed what society has formed in your simple mind....because more often than not society has gotten it wrong.

 

[IcarusBurns]

but what everyone is trying to say, i believe, is that until we as a people can move passed all this bigotry and hatred and instead use love and understanding of all different types of people can we truly get passed all this negativity...its people like you that are hindering this process...gay or straight it doesn't matter...it takes one person at a time...which side would you choose...hatred or love of all of mankind? you need to get passed what society has formed in your simple mind....because more often than not society has gotten it wrong.

While I agree that people should accept everyone for who they are, we don't live in that kind of society. There will always be stereotypes and prejudices.

 

[MystikWizard]

I don't like over the top straight men either. They annoy the hell out of me. I don't see you point, SMN.

SMN's "point" is that he has maturity issues and has difficulty accepting reality. The elevator doesn't quite go to the top floor when he is presented with the real-life feelings of heterosexuals as it pertains to social norms and the Gay Community. He has a set ideology of the way things "should be" with very little regard to the prejudices and attitudes that stand in the way from within the 90% of the Heterosexual Population.

Just because one is "Gay", that does not equate to being able to "walk on water", while Heterosexuals are stuck walking on land. If it isn't socially acceptable for a Straight Guy to walk down the street in a parade with a Dildo then why should it be considered for a Gay guy to do the same thing? Simply because one is "Gay" and that in his mind thinks it grants him a Free Pass?

The only thing it does is make the Gay Community look bad. And the Queens out there need to understand this. If anything, the Gay Rights Movement has been drawn out because of outlandish behavior like this, by only increasing homophobia.

And btw SMN, your response to Icarus was more of a dodge, as I see you didn't bother disputing his comments. Again, you are too stuck in the "way things should be" fantasy mode of yours.

 

[fetaby]

So will it get worse before it gets better? Is homophobia a necessary evil, in terms of keeping gay issues in the minds of straights?

While I'm reading these posts, and we're all talking about sweeping social practices, I can't help but think about Matthew Shephard. If anything kept me in the closet, it was the fear that what happened to him could happen to me. It was never as big an issue that I might be associated as being feminine ( I never played sports, and had more female friends than male friends), rather that someone would visit violence upon me just for being gay. I've watched the drunken rednecks, I know what they are capable of. I couldn't ever completely fit in with them, but was afforded some acceptance by the social status of my brother.

So how many other people will die or be greviously harmed before the world sees we're just people too, we're different but still people?
I just can't believe that blaming the flamers for supposedly causing homophobia is what we as gay people ,wanting change, need to do.
I believe that if a gay person has to tone down any part of themself in order to appease the masses they become nothing more than a lap dog. I don't believe that a straight person will ever see them as being equal. For one reason, they deny themself the truth of themself. If you want equality you have to come to the table as an equal.

I'm going to end this post saying that if you aren't the flaming faggot, if you aren't the drag queen, more power to you. Please use that power to let everyone you know that even though they don't understand, all they need to know is that faggot and that queen is still a person and should be treated as such.

 

[ljghba1]

While I agree that people should accept everyone for who they are, we don't live in that kind of society. There will always be stereotypes and prejudices.

but we have the power to change society. like i said one person at a time. there are no set rules for how society is suppose to be based....it's only a collective thought....maybe there will always be stereotypes and prejudices but we could make those people a minority and open minded people the majority...it's not hard to do...its only a choice...a mindstate...why not spread this mindset starting with yourself....who knows maybe 200 years down the road this world could be a better, more accepting place.

 

[saymyname]

I don't like over the top straight men either. They annoy the hell out of me. I don't see your point, SMN.

That no one tells them that they don't have a right to exist or that they give straight people a "bad name", genius.

Mystik, your arguments are ridiculous. You keep using your argument against "queens carrying dildos down the street" - that happens in a PARADE. It's a parade. It's supposed to be celebratory, decadent, fun. Open. Proud. Accepting... things you clearly don't understand. You are a social fascist. You have an authoritarian personality and anyone who is reading this thread can see that. If you think flaming faggots are annoying, that's one thing, but you're saying they shouldn't be a part of our movement and shouldn't have the freedom to be who they are and act how they want. You want to uphold vicious gender norms that aren't good for anyone. You might be in your 30's, but your ideas are OLD FASHIONED and outdated, and it sounds like you live in a really small town and have never actually BEEN to a gay pride parade.

 

[IcarusBurns]

but you're saying they shouldn't be a part of our movement and shouldn't have the freedom to be who they are and act how they want. You want to uphold vicious gender norms that aren't good for anyone.

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. He has said many times that he thinks people should be free to act as they wish.

 

[fetaby]

but you're saying they shouldn't be a part of our movement and shouldn't have the freedom to be who they are and act how they want. You want to uphold vicious gender norms that aren't good for anyone.

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. He has said many times that he thinks people should be free to act as they wish.

But at the same time, he is saying that the flamers are the ones responsible for the negative stereotypes of gays. In essence, he's saying in order for us to push our agenda of equality and acceptance, the queens need to take a back seat. A sit down and shut the fuck up approach. A.K.A by all means go and be a cockroach, but don't get offended when I step on you. Bull shit.

And were back to page 3.

 

[saymyname]

but you're saying they shouldn't be a part of our movement and shouldn't have the freedom to be who they are and act how they want. You want to uphold vicious gender norms that aren't good for anyone.

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. He has said many times that he thinks people should be free to act as they wish.

Right. As long as they aren't "violating norms" in society.

 

[MystikWizard]

You're setting the gay rights movement back. Stonewall happened by gay men, butch dykes, trans people, drag queens, 'freaks' and those pushed to the edge of society because of the social norms that YOU wish to uphold. We shouldn't be fighting to uphold these social norms, we should abolish them.

You are not examining the very likely possibility that if Gays had started the Gay Rights Movement and pushed for it with respect to following social norms in order to relate more to heterosexuals, that we would be very likely much further along in the process than we are today.

Yeah, the butch dykes, Queens, "Freaks" and so forth did a great job at making the public aware that Gays were out there. Unfortunately, as stated, the only attention it drew was negative attention, and if anything prolonged the Gay Rights Movement.

The fact of the matter is that you want to have your cake, and eat it too. And this arrogant approach that you have is causing the public to resent you ... not embrace you.

You seem to be under the impression that ALL straight people are, like yourself, STUCK IN THE 1950'S. You don't have to be gay or queer to support social liberalism. I AM owed my rights and I AM entitled to my rights as a citizen, I'm not going to tow the line and pretend I'm the same as straight Protestant couples with a white picket fence because I'm not. But just because I'm different and have different views and a different lifestyle doesn't mean I shouldn't have the same rights. Do you think when black people were fighting for their rights, they kept trying to "act white"? Read some Malcolm X. They stopped conking their hair. Our differences should be celebrated and respected, not invisiblized, which is what you're suggesting.

Again, stuck in the world of ideology and not the Real World, as I have pointed out.

We aren't stuck in the 1950's. We are in the year 2009. And like it or not, these are very real attitudes that Heterosexuals have towards Gays in this day and age. Again, like it or not, that is something you need to deal with. You can't just brush it off to the side and say "Oh, well. I don't care."

It absolutely amazes me that you can't understand how your attitude increases homophobia. I thought Gays would most like to see Homophobia end, as opposed to actually increasing it.

Again, you may WANT the same rights as Straights, however as it stands right now, you AREN'T entitled to them. If you were, you would have them. Therefore, it kind of makes sense to me that if you want something that the other 90% of the population has the power to give you, you should really respect the social norms established by the MAJORITY of the population. Marching down the streets in drag carrying sex toys in Oklahoma and Texas isn't going to get you real far.

Umm, no. You're absolutely wrong. The most famous GLBT people have always been people who subvert and push boundaries. David Bowie, Prince, Allen Ginsberg, Wilde, so many gay writers and poets, so many gay musicians. Maybe you aren't an internalized homophobe (big maybe), but if you think a smart way to go about getting respect and rights is to assimilate into the status quo, we're not fighting for the same thing. People should be allowed to be who they are and act how they feel, do what they want - liberation. You're suggesting we drop anything that makes us stand out, just so we're respected by bigots. They'll still call you a faggot when you walk out of the room. There's that old saying, I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for what I am not.

Yet another example of your problem with not living in the Real World. You are far too idealistic as opposed to realistic.

If people simply acted "how they feel" going into work day in and day out, chances are that we would have a lot of people terminated from their jobs.

If people simply acted "how they feel" out in public, chances are that we would have a lot more altercations between people, due to household factors.

However, that does not transpire because we have social norms in our society that we all follow, for the good of society.

Let me ask you this much, since you like to be idealistic. Do you think you could simply go out and be yourself in places like Iran or Afghanistan, without there being a negative response to what you are doing?

Respecting the social norms of society is not being oppressive.

Are you joking? Tell that to black people during the civil rights movement. Tell that to Women. Tell that to gay people who don't live in gay friendly areas. Tell that to trans people. Social norms are extremely pervasive and oppressive. Read Foucault.

Why is it that Blacks have advanced their status in the social rungs of society quicker than Gays? It's because Blacks act civilized and can respect the social norms of society.

And Gay people have the same ability. I feel that most Gays probably do simply want to go about their lives within the realm of society by simply blending in with society like Straights do. However, they want to be "out" without that fear of rejection or labeling. It's unfortunate that the most vocal of those within the Gay Community are the ones that give all Gays a bad name. And because of the Negative stereotypes that Queens give to Gays, that makes it even more difficult for Gays to come out, due to the increase in Homophobia as a result of the Queens' behaviors.

Straight people don't have to draw attention to themselves because there is nothing interesting or political about being straight. Maybe gay people aren't 'special' per se, but I think overcoming extreme amounts of adversity is something to be proud of.

And since you like to be idealistic, nor should there be anything special about being Gay, either. As far as overcoming adversity, sure that is something to be proud of. However, like Blacks, one can be proud of overcoming adversity while still following social norms and not trying to be Obnoxious and "in your face" about it in public.

The amount of things we've accomplished - no thanks to people like you - in spite of our oppression is incredible.

You can accomplish things without necessarily being obnoxious about it in public. Plus, don't make it sound like you really personally did anything. You understand the behavior and attitudes of Heterosexuals, but you don't care what they think.

Again, I ask you, if that is the type of carefree attitude you want to have that you feel applies to all people, then I would like for you to demonstrate that nonchalant attitude in the Middle East, and see what happens to you.

Just like there are norms there that are respected at this period in time, don't disrespect social norms here in the United States at this particular point in time either. There is a right way and a wrong way to push the Tolerance Agenda forward.

As for drag, drag is a form of expression, drag is a performance art, drag is often very political. You clearly don't know very much about drag.

I am aware that Drag is a performance art and a form of expression. I just feel it gives Gays a bad name. Because we are so few, it is unfortunate that all of us are lumped with that particular label, even though we don't want to be. Drag helps our image so much in the eyes of society, now doesn't it?

Your desire to uphold gender norms is rather terrifying. You're arguing for the kind of straight society where gay people are recuced to the bitch and the butch. I don't want to fucking MIRROR STRAIGHT SOCIETY! I want to smash the mirror! Get it!

LOL. I get it alright and have gotten it for some time now. I simply don't agree with it, and feel that you are enflaming tensions amongst the overwhelming majority of the population, as opposed to helping to alleviate those tensions.

Think of Gay Rights in terms of any major planning for a major project from Start to Finish. When you are planning a project, is it possible to go Straight from Point A to Point Z? Or do you have to go little by little and in stages with points in between in order to execute the plan?

You are the kind of Person that wants to go straight from A to Z when it is impractical. And then you wonder why Proposition 8 failed in California. You are dealing with something very tricky when you are dealing with people of faith. A tactful approach in dealing with that, and getting into their minds, is far more effective than a completely reckless "I don't give a Fuck" approach that you want to take.

Straights can respect the social norms of society because their bodies are not the center of political struggles! They create and perpetuate the social norms that oppress us. Allies are with us in transforming those norms, or abolishing them altogether. You know, at one time, divorce wasn't normal, using birth control wasn't normal, women working out of the home wasn't normal, interracial relationships weren't normal. Is that what you'd prefer, that no one ever fights to disturb the way things are? Fuck that...

It's true that norms can be transformed over time, but not by jumping from A to Z. Try that shit in the Middle East and see what happens to you.

WHO CARES? Glamorella has a right to exist just as much as Joe Shmo. You're a social fascist, dude. Plain and simple. Have you ever been in a big city, ever, in your entire life???

I lived on the outskirts of Los Angeles for about a year and a half. And even in places like that Gay Marriage still can't get passed. Why is that do you think? Maybe you should re-examine your approach, because the approach you advocate did nothing in that regard except have the movement for Gay Marriage suppressed.

If you don't want to get into the minds of your opponents, and find ways to tackle those issues appropriately, you aren't going to be successful. And Gays were not successful in what was defined as the Most Liberal State in the Country.

Yeah, a watered down form of rights and equality that says you can be a butt fucking faggot and get married, but don't you dare express how you feel. If you impersonate us, and 'behave', then you can be free. What a deal!

For God's sake, will you Grow the Fuck up? Seriously.

Yeah, I know you want to live in a world without rules. You've made that quite clear. It just isn't practical.

And those social norms aren't simply exclusive because one is Gay. A straight person in public would simply feel very uneasy around another Straight Guy who would be wearing a dress in public, or would be less likely to relate to a Straight guy who is intentionally trying to draw attention to himself in a manner that violates social norms.

I feel UNCOMFORTABLE around MACHO straight men ALL THE TIME! And what are they doing, besides upholding their social norm as alpha male!? I'd rather be sitting next to a guy in a dress on the subway than a fucking skinhead, but which one is more common?

Society is what it is at this particular time. You are 10% of the population. You think you can change the other 90% all by yourself? Again, you really need to grow up and accept reality. And part of that reality is making concessions. For example, "maybe I can convince society that I am like them in every single way except Orientation, and appeal to their sense of morality to the point where we can actually achieve Gay Marriage and all Benefits to Gay Couples .... but the trade off may be that I need to respect the social norms, and act normal in public.

Sounds like a reasonable, fair trade-off to me. Of course with you, it's either all or nothing. Well, don't be surprised if you get nothing with your attitude ... with everyone else suffering the consequences as a result.

I am advocating total social freedom and sexual freedom. Your idea of equality is for gay people who pass as straight.

What I advocate is for it being okay for Gays to be out in public, and for society to respect that, but with Gays still respecting social norms just like everyone else.

Like I said, change comes in stages. You don't simply go from Point A to Z without making stops in between.

Or force themselves to. It does nothing for people at the margins of society - gay youth, queers of color, trans people, artists, lower class queer people. You want to uphold the pillars of society that perpetuate inequality and oppression, I want to abolish it. You call for "tolerance" ... since when is tolerance such a fucking privilege? If someone walked around saying "I don't like ____ people, but I tolerate them" would you call that equality? Tolerance has a connotation that the majority has to "put up with" our behavior. They have to 'tolerate' us. Fuck that. I don't want to be tolerated, I want to fuck shit up.

Well, I got through most of your post, but I am stopping it right here with that.

That's about the second or third time you have stated your desire to "Fuck Shit Up" and it's clear from your words that I am not dealing with a mature person. Rather, I am interacting with an individual who has a large degree of maturity issues to deal with ... what will hopefully improve as you simply grow older and actually mature.

But until then, it's no sense in arguing with an immature adolescent like you who has no desire to listen to reason and would simply rather go out and "Fuck shit up!"

Good for you. And when you get beaten to a bloody pulp after "Fucking Shit Up", have fun paying the hospital bills.

I'm done interacting with you. Have fun talking to the wall, as I am not responding to you any further.

 

[NineOfClubs]

I still have trouble understanding the concept that to gain tolerance and end bigotry, one has to please, and conform to the norms, of the intolerant and the bigoted....

 

[LiquidSky]

I have to say, in a short and sweet way, that us faggots who stick out, get all the heat. I don't want to be straight acting, I don't want to be discreet, I don't want be a man's man, I'm not "bisexual."

Good for you!! I pass for straight and tell people to fuck off when I hear their bullshit. If someone says something stupid about gay folks in front of me, I'll tell 'em a few things.