Fed up with the 'you must have children' propaganda

[crubbed]

It occurs to me that the "have children" propaganda I most despise is Roman Catholic authorities urging people who already have too many to have even more.

Tell me about it. I see it on TV everyday, couples with 9+ children struggling to have the money to raise them. Or teenagers having more than one child... ugh.

You should also know that you are hardly the first to think (abstractly, impersonally) that it is better that all of us should have never been born at all than to suffer the 'imperfections' of this world (I hold this view); however, in light of your depression, I would set aside investigating this idea (see Schopenhauer) until you are happier and able to withstand the difficulty of the idea.

Thanks. You gave me some good advice there.

(Willieboy) made a great point you sound more like somebody that expects everybody to manage everything for you. I doubt your parents were one bit selfish in giving you life instead you choose to sit around feeling sorry for yoursel instead of getting up and taking action one like yourself comes across as ungrateful and bratty. Unless you live in a third world country you really are just overreacting, my parents gave me the choice in life to sit around or do something they helped me in life, but now i no longer burden them you might try getting up sometime and living a little.

You exist deal with it.

I don't think that's the way you should speak to a probably depressed person, but that's just me. First world ungrateful & depressed brat.

So, telling someone that really needs to see a therapist about his depression is rude to you, but basically calling children a waste of time isn't? How rude of you.

If you read it carefully, I stressed the fact that I wasn't sure I was in the right, and that I was looking for you guys' opinion. If you call that rude...

Right, because being given the gift of life, being given the option to shine, is the same as being thrown in a massive pile of shit.

I just can't with this 'give the gift of life' propaganda slogan. What does it mean exactly? Do you think poor people struggling everyday, pondering suicide because of whatever reason, consider themselves gifted? Do they even care?

Maybe you aren't so much depressed as you are lazy? Just laying around waiting for everybody else to do for you and hand you everything on a silver platter, but unwilling to lift a finger for yourself...... Then complaining about how terrible life is for you, and how everything sucks.

I have no clue how one could read my OP and think 'this guy is just lazy'. Uhm. Okay.

Just wait till the "conservatives" gays start looking down on those "licentious" gays that just want to literally fuck around once marriage equality is in all 50 states.

This was the first time I thought about this. And you're so right, this is so going to happen.

 

[Willie Boy]

If you read it carefully, I stressed the fact that I wasn't sure I was in the right, and that I was looking for you guys' opinion. If you call that rude...

And when you got an opinion that was not to your liking you immediately called it rude, without first taking the time to fully understand it. So yes, I call that rude.

I just can't with this 'give the gift of life' propaganda slogan. What does it mean exactly? Do you think poor people struggling everyday, pondering suicide because of whatever reason, consider themselves gifted? Do they even care?

First off it is neither propaganda nor slogan. It is simple truth, maybe if you took the time to learn and understand ideas different than you own you would be in a much better frame of mind. As to what it means....... Simple. It means that you live, that you have a choice of making what you want of your life or lying around whining and crying about how you have nothing and life sucks and nobody cares about you. I don't know you personally but I care enough to tell you what you need to hear, do you care enough to listen?

I have no clue how one could read my OP and think 'this guy is just lazy'. Uhm. Okay.

Well, when your posts show a desire not to even consider any change of activity (or even thought) to try to improve your existence yes, that is lazy. You refuse to make a difference in your own life and hide behind the flag of depression. All you want to do is play the tired old "woe is me, everybody hates me" record, but you wont lift a finger to make a change that could very easily improve your life in a major way. So yes, that is lazy. What "depression" you have is of your own making, brought on by your refusal to take responsibility for yourself. Step up and be a man, you can do it.

You think you're the only person who has had it rough? My life started out with the death of my parents and me ending up in a foster home. My foster parents were pedophiles and molested and abused me until I ran away when I was 11. I lived on the streets after that. You don't even want to know how many times I should have died (or how many times I actually was legally dead), but I survived. Eventually I was adopted by a wonderful man and provided with a stable and safe home. I made a choice not to feel sorry for myself and made the best of what I had, now I'm retired and never have to worry about money, or basically anything, ever again.

So yeah, choose to sit around and feel sorry for yourself that you have to actually work to make something of your life, but I wont shed a tear for your so-called pain because there are many out there who have had it worse than you but have chosen to BE. Make whatever choice you want, but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you in your laziness. At least have the balls to tell us the truth.

 

[crubbed]

And when you got an opinion that was not to your liking you immediately called it rude, without first taking the time to fully understand it. So yes, I call that rude.

Hm a little backstory here:

Originally Posted by Willie Boy View Post
Having sex is selfish. Having a child is a gift.
Now, about your depression...... Go see a therapist.

I think this is rude.

And I stand by what I said.

It is simple truth, maybe if you took the time to learn and understand ideas different than you own you would be in a much better frame of mind.

I guess they should be presented as valid ideas not just thrown into my face.

It means that you live, that you have a choice of making what you want of your life

Yeah, unless you are born without an arm. Or sight-impaired. Or in very hard circumstances. Is that a gift? I don't know. I'm seriously questioning that, I think it would be stupid to never question something you've been raised with.

or lying around whining and crying about how you have nothing and life sucks and nobody cares about you.

I never said nobody cares about me. Never have I cried about this. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

I don't know you personally but I care enough to tell you what you need to hear, do you care enough to listen?

If you were more polite about it, I'd probably listen (as I did with other users). Now, I just don't care.

Well, when your posts show a desire not to even consider any change of activity (or even thought) to try to improve your existence yes, that is lazy.

Huh? Have you even read my posts thanking the people chiming in giving me their advice?

You refuse to make a difference in your own life and hide behind the flag of depression. All you want to do is play the tired old "woe is me, everybody hates me" record, but you wont lift a finger to make a change that could very easily improve your life in a major way. So yes, that is lazy. What "depression" you have is of your own making, brought on by your refusal to take responsibility for yourself. Step up and be a man, you can do it.

Sounds like someone here doesn't really care about depression and what it does to a person. It's just a matter of being spoiled brats, yeah.

You think you're the only person who has had it rough?

Huh? I'm in pain because I'm empathic and I know that other people are even in a sadder, worse state than I am and I feel awful about it. Do you know what being empathic means?

My life started out with the death of my parents and me ending up in a foster home. My foster parents were pedophiles and molested and abused me until I ran away when I was 11. I lived on the streets after that. You don't even want to know how many times I should have died (or how many times I actually was legally dead), but I survived. Eventually I was adopted by a wonderful man and provided with a stable and safe home. I made a choice not to feel sorry for myself and made the best of what I had, now I'm retired and never have to worry about money, or basically anything, ever again.

I'm sorry about your past. Still, you don't know anything about me.

So yeah, choose to sit around and feel sorry for yourself that you have to actually work to make something of your life,

Huh? This has nothing to do with making something of my life. I was talking about bringing children into this world. I don't understand what's happening here.

but I wont shed a tear for your so-called pain because there are many out there who have had it worse than you but have chosen to BE. Make whatever choice you want, but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you in your laziness. At least have the balls to tell us the truth.

Me expecting people to feel sorry for me? I repeat: I was talking about children being brought into this world. Okay, something's seriously off here. You should be the one to tell us the truth. What's with this chip on your shoulder attitude?

 

[Willie Boy]

Hm a little backstory here

Ummm..... You mean history.



Yeah, unless you are born without an arm. Or sight-impaired. Or in very hard circumstances. Is that a gift?[/quote]
Life itself is a gift. That is what you need to understand. Everybody has to face struggles of one form or another. It isn't the lack of trouble that makes us great, but our perseverance to overcome it. Sadly, this is something that lazy people lack the desire for.

I never said nobody cares about me. Never have I cried about this. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

Your whole attitude cries it.

If you were more polite about it, I'd probably listen (as I did with other users). Now, I just don't care.[/quote}
I was polite. My original response to you was simply pointing out where my opinion differed from yours and to suggest you get help for what I originally accepted as depression. Depression is not something that should be faced alone, it requires therapy and or medication. Those who don't find help rarely survive attempts at suicide. And you take the suggestion that your life was too valuable to be lost needlessly as rudeness..... Or was it the suggestion that you actually do something that you found fault with?

Huh? Have you even read my posts thanking the people chiming in giving me their advice?

Yes. Those were the posts that said what you wanted to hear.

Sounds like someone here doesn't really care about depression and what it does to a person.

I've shared with you the basics of what I went through as a child...... But I intentionally left out my struggle with depression prior to finding a safe home late into my teens. I learned to overcome it. I have also dealt with many other sufferers with depression through the years, enough to tell the difference between the symptoms of depression and those of laziness.

It's just a matter of being a spoiled brat, yeah.

Maybe not spoiled, but you are a brat, expecting others to do for you what you refuse to do for yourself. Hence your whining that life sucks. Get up off your lazy ass and get an education. Then you can get out and get a job. You'll find a much better life on the other side. You just need someone to light a fire under your ass to get you moving.



Huh? I'm in pain because I'm empathic and I know that other people are even in a sadder, worse state than I am and I feel awful about it. Do you know what being empathic means?



I'm sorry about your past. Still, you don't know anything about me.



Huh? This has nothing to do with making something of my life. I was talking about bringing children into this world. I don't understand what's happening here.



Me expecting people to feel sorry for me? I repeat: I was talking about children being brought into this world. Okay, something's seriously off here. You should be the one to tell us the truth. What's with this chip on your shoulder attitude?

 

[Kulindahr]

Reproducing should be a privilige, not a right.

No, it's a right -- but rights have to be exercised responsibly. We're pretty much at the point where genetic guidelines can be implemented, so we stop passing on defects, and that would be a good place to start.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Point of information: "species" is both singular and plural. The word "specie" refers to money.

 

[Gentleheart]

I like (and mostly agree with) this article on it.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Benetar's Asymmetry:

1) The presence of pain is bad; and
2) The presence of pleasure is good.
3) The absence of pain is good (even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone); but
4) The absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation.

This^ is a pretty convincing, rational argument against making babies. And here is a short explanation of it.

 

[Gentleheart]

 

[Kulindahr]

Benetar's Asymmetry:

1) The presence of pain is bad; and
2) The presence of pleasure is good.
3) The absence of pain is good (even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone); but
4) The absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation.

This^ is a pretty convincing, rational argument against making babies. And here is a short explanation of it.

That's a nice pile of bullshit. For starters, it fails because it requires the assumption that x amount of time spent in pleasure is equal to x amount of time spent in pain. I can testify just how false that is, and it introduces a reality that blows the alleged asymmetry out of the water: remembered pleasure can trump remembered pain and present pain. Another point is that it assumes that pleasure and pain are a binary function, i.e. that all pain is the same and all pleasure is the same.

Not having babies is not especially moral or immoral. It could even be argued that it depends on the people proposing to have a baby: if they carry genetic defects that will predispose the child to a life with more pain than pleasure, having a baby could be regarded as immoral. But for everyone to have no babies would be immoral, because it would mean the end of the race.

It was an interesting read, but it's an exercise in the sort of sophomoric "philosophy" that results mostly in people thinking how brilliant they are.

 

[darden]

glad I've never experienced it... my sister and I actually had this conversation last week:

Darden: the older I get, the pass I want children... when I was 22, I was all about it. now that I'm 32, not so much.
Darden's sister: good.

her point being that she feels like the older someone is, the more set in their ways they are and the less willing they'd be to adapt to a baby. this was in the midst of a discussion where we were talking about how surprised her 37 year-old sister-in-law just announced that she was pregnant (with her married lover's child)

 

[mikey3000]

No, it's a right -- but rights have to be exercised responsibly. We're pretty much at the point where genetic guidelines can be implemented, so we stop passing on defects, and that would be a good place to start.

That is a horrible ! place to start. What genetic guidelines do you suggest we follow? Eradicate deafness? Blindness? Dwarfism? Shortness? Low IQ? Brown eyes? Brown skin? Red hair? Who decides? Because you know darn well that homosexuality will be on that list too. No, that is a horrible place to start. So much for equality.

 

[pat grimshaw]

...What genetic guidelines do you suggest we follow? Eradicate deafness? Blindness? Dwarfism?...

Yes. why not?

Jesus and all the other gods can take their unborn souls.

 

[xbuzzerx]

That is a horrible ! place to start. What genetic guidelines do you suggest we follow? Eradicate deafness? Blindness? Dwarfism? Shortness? Low IQ? Brown eyes? Brown skin? Red hair? Who decides? Because you know darn well that homosexuality will be on that list too. No, that is a horrible place to start. So much for equality.

If you suffered every single day in physical pain from a genetic ailment, would you hope that your parents had given this speech though?

 

[mikey3000]

I do suffer daily from a genetic malady. It doesn't make me feel any less worthy, or rather it didn't, till now.

 

[pat grimshaw]

^
I'll have you know that more than a few of us here on JUB suffer from genetic maladies.

 

[zoltanspawn]

That's a nice pile of bullshit. For starters, it fails because it requires the assumption that x amount of time spent in pleasure is equal to x amount of time spent in pain. I can testify just how false that is, and it introduces a reality that blows the alleged asymmetry out of the water: remembered pleasure can trump remembered pain and present pain. Another point is that it assumes that pleasure and pain are a binary function, i.e. that all pain is the same and all pleasure is the same.

The argument does not hinge on real pain and pleasure, but on pain and pleasure that does not exist.

Look at 3) and 4) again: they talk about absent pain, and absent pleasure.

The asymmetry arises because the absence of pain is good (like the presence of pain is bad) BUT ASYMMETRICALLY the absence of pleasure is not bad (like the presence of pleasure is good).

Therefore, there is no harm in non-existence in the first place; whereas, there is harm in existence.

Benetar's argument is that the harm (however much) entailed by existence is enough to make harm-free non-existence preferable.

Not having babies is not especially moral or immoral. It could even be argued that it depends on the people proposing to have a baby: if they carry genetic defects that will predispose the child to a life with more pain than pleasure, having a baby could be regarded as immoral. But for everyone to have no babies would be immoral, because it would mean the end of the race.

It was an interesting read, but it's an exercise in the sort of sophomoric "philosophy" that results mostly in people thinking how brilliant they are.

It's not self-evident that it's immoral for the human race to end. I hold the opposite view, that it would be a very good thing to happen. (And the reason is that, our violent competitive, opportunistic nature does too much damage to the world.)

 

[xbuzzerx]

I do suffer daily from a genetic malady. It doesn't make me feel any less worthy, or rather it didn't, till now.

And if your parents could have prevented that illness at birth, you would have been angry with them?

 

[mikey3000]

Should've your parents corrected your homosexuality if they could've?

 

[Kulindahr]

That is a horrible ! place to start. What genetic guidelines do you suggest we follow? Eradicate deafness? Blindness? Dwarfism? Shortness? Low IQ? Brown eyes? Brown skin? Red hair? Who decides? Because you know darn well that homosexuality will be on that list too. No, that is a horrible place to start. So much for equality.

Obvious defects only -- and being gay is not a defect. Since it's a medical matter, doctors could be required to adhere to guidelines and only counsel against medical defects. So deafness, blindness, definitely, low IQ arguably; colors of skin and eyes and hair, no. And any doctor supplying counseling to try to avoid anything not an actual medical defect would be stripped of their license.