Femmephobia in the gay community

[DreamDancer310]

I personally think the consistent and constant bashing, belittling and both implicit and explicit targeting of effeminate gay men in our community is a big taboo we don't talk about. At all. But it's there, clear as day.

Why is it on every gay site and discussion blog fem gays are brought up as a negative, and always berated?

Poster make references that it's complimentary to have less feminine/queens on media representing gay people, and painted them as basically tolerable side shows at Pride. I guess I wonder...what is so shameful about being an inherently effeminate man? Other than being raised to believe it's evil and ill based on societal upbringings drilled in our head: is a gay man who has a slight strut to his walk, or softness in his talk worthy of less respect? Less valued member of society? Is immune to feeling pain & rejection? From my unscientific observations..I'd say no. As we often observe in news outlets, fem gays do take a lot of burden for being identifiably gay. That burden does cause distress for them. It does often make them take the first punch (or bullets), or even worse, drives them at 12 years old to take loaded guns and blow their own brains out. All for what? inherently being wired to be more fem?

At the end of the day, of all the negative attributes to have (greedy, devious, callous, self revolved, violent) is being an effeminate man really such an awful terrible thing to be? For the gay community, a demographic with a sizable number of in the middle to fem men in it, it seems being fem is in fact evil. I think what often happens is some gay people look at being gay from the lens of a homophobic straight person, and as a result, almost create a fixation to not be that vision of what said homophobe thinks gay are. Or look down on those who are. That fosters a mentality where those who are easily pegged as gay equate to being bad....can you see how that could facilitate more of the same bigotry, ignorance and intolerance that drives the rural 12 year old fem/gay child to take their own life?

And why do gay men have a VERY challenging time differentiating between feminine and obnoxious? Most feminine men I know aren't obnoxious, or loud, or even flashy. They are just inherently feminine. If you have an issue with someone or people who are obnoxious, say I don't like obnoxious people. But using 'fem' as a code word to signify obnoxious, and qualifying it with "I can't stand how annoying fem gay men are"....when in fact, there's many soft spoken fem gay men. Reserved fem gay men. Timid fem gay men, hardly loud or annoying. And many masculine men who thrive off attention and needing to be the center of everything.

Can someone help clarify the perpetual existence of femmephobia in our community and why it's never discussed?

 

[Sparky-Sparky-Boom-Boom]

One word "Insecurity"

 

[DreamDancer310]

Thanks sparky. I think part of it is indeed insecurity...but I think there's many many layers to it.

Misogyny being another. And I sincerely believe homophobia plays a considerable role as well (without even being realized). Right or wrong, fem qualities are attributed to being gay. The word 'gaydar' didn't stem from men with blue hair. But men who embody some fem traits. When we then turn being fem into a negative for gay people, who happen to inherently be fem....that's when thing start getting blurry between that and missplaced (subtle) homophobia and misogyny.

Clear example: in our society, and more notably, in our community, do we put as much pressure and condemnation and judgment on masculine lesbians? or masculine appearing women in general? Heck, one could very specifically argue (with examples) how women who posses masculine appearing mannerisms are deemed strong, powerful, "girl power!"

I know MANY many many lesbians, and have befriended many in my life. The contrast between how feminine gay men are treated by the gay community and how masculine lesbians are treated within the lesbian community are STARTLING.
Lesbians will not shy away from mentioning not being sexually attracted to a butch fellow lesbian, however, that's where the brunt of it ends with them. They don't harbor resentment for someone within their bracket who happens to masculine. They don't judge, and belittle them and make them feel like a stain on being a lesbian. Lesbians champion that butch lesbian as much as that lipstick lesbian. And this is coming from years of observed, and noted experiences from lesbians of all backgrounds and walks of life.

Many masculine gay men (not all) treat fem gays absolutely no different than how many straight people treat gay people. They judge them and depreciate them all for being different. And I sincerely believe that.

 

[DreamDancer310]

BustinJeiber...I don't even know where to start with what you wrote. I really don't.

LoL (inhale...exhale)....

* Notice how your thought process instantly gravitated to "overly fem" when my post very clearly and strategically noted just FEM. Knowing full well someone like yourself would paint ALL feminine men with one brush.

* Majority of gay men trying to blend in with the population? First off, if you have to try. It's not innate. Secondly, what population is that? the 6 billion people on our planet with THOUSANDS of various mannerisms, cultures, likes/dislikes? Or is it the Christian, psuedo-conservative, "not so comfortable with the gay thing" population you are trying to blend in with? Who are you trying to blend in with? Because heteros come in all kinds.

* You're last point comes from a privileged point of view. Go talk to a gay child in a small town in the South and ask him how it's like being gay. Or the fact that in our own "land of the free" it's completely legal for an employer to fire a person for even being suspected of being gay. Or that 1 in 4 gay youth attempt suicide. Or how about the overwhelming number of gay homeless youth out there kicked out as a child for being gay by their own blood.

I think folks like yourself are uncomfortable with talking about homophobia, partially because there's part of it internalized in yourself (and not realized either)

when you say you're not attempting to put anyone down....in the very sentence after stating "...the agenda of the socially normal gays to be more acceptable to the common public and by doing so they push out the ultra feminine and make them a caste of social deformities"...goes beyond insulting. I think that right there flirts with prejudice. The very exact form of prejudice homophobes use against gay people. Verbatim actually. That you can't realize it is whats most startling. And I really do say that with both respect and clarity.

 

[DreamDancer310]

I'd love to know how BustinJeiber and their thought process of painting feminine gays as nothing short of a negative, cesspool, that should be condemned (and actively are by his ilk)

How is that ANY different than anti gay people who preach against being gay?

I really sincerely want to know what the difference is between an anti gay person saying "being gay is not normal. It's not the dominant trait in humans. Most people are heterosexual. We blend in society as heterosexuals, and go with normalcy. A man being with another man is just too much. Why don't you just try to be like everyone else?"

How is that argument ANY different than what BustinJeiber preaches "being fem is not normal or dominant in society. Most gay men are trying to distance themselves from it and by doing so, pushing out and aside fem gays. Blending in with normal society is more noble and just."

In BOTH cases, judgment is being cast on someone for being inherently different. And literally with the same *Exact* arguments.

 

[DreamDancer310]

Mystery Loves company: thanks for your very honest, sincere, and reflective commentary. I honestly think if more gay men actually went inward and explored their disdain for fem gays, they'd realize how it comes from a place not very foriegn from where misogyny, homophobia, and general prejudice comes from (without their realizing). It's very considerate of you.

And this has nothing to do with being with a fem gay man sexually. That I honor & respect. But if you really sit back and evaluate the words used against fem gay men, it goes way, way, wayyyy beyond "I don't want to sleep with them" and in 99.999% of cases, truly boil down to "I'd rather they go back and closet themselves"

It's the notion of "that's not me, I can't relate to that behavior, so I don't support it. I support what I do, and what's normal to my reality" ....Not at all different from an anti gay straight man when approached about his stance on gay people.

 

[Kahaih]

You’ve posted 5 posts out of 10 in your own thread.

Post #1 – 498 words

Post #3 – 305 words

Post #7 – 335 words

Post #8 – 176 words

Post #9 – 168 words

I don’t think you are looking for a conversation/discussion.

 

[DreamDancer310]

BustinJeiber...you may not be an 'enemy' but if the only thing that separates you, your arguments and your disdain for fem gays as those homophobes who pick on our fem gay youth at school; is the fact that you love penis, and they don't....well, then I'm sorry, but you're indeed in bed with the enemy.

A lot of the arguments you make are arguments internalized homophobes who are self hating hate: It's the same meme/ brain washed talking points.
"Why wear your sexuality on your sleeve?" (notice how this only is directed at gay people)
"Homophobia is all but gone. No need to be so loud."
"Pride events are shameful."
"Why do you have to shove it down everyone's throats?"
"Fem gays; why can't you just be normal like everyone else?"

It's truly the pages ripped out of the conservative anti gay guide book, and copy/paste on various gay forums. And these types of gays have had these thoughts instilled in them so long that they can't even shake it off, or stand back and question it.

You essentially want to be able to have as much cock as possible as a man ( a fact that makes a majority of the world anywhere from uncomfortable, to downright revolted) and be left alone and respected for it....yet want to sit on a platform and analyze the mindset, behavior, mannerism, intent, self worth, and *value* of feminine gays who are different from you. That you can't grasp how one form of prejudice is cut from the same cloth as the other is fascinating and needs to be addressed to you.

Folks like you frame society and human race as black and white (gay/straight) not realizing between that there's all types that make this world operate, and make humanity enjoyable, and diversity (in all it's forms) should be celebrated. You and your wording absolutely positively wants to stifle the freedoms of people who are different than you. Fem gay men. You may not want to legislate against their being (although, I truly believe if given the opportunity, someone like you would indeed campaign against them) you want to shun them, and shame them right back in the closet. For being different than you. Once again, absolutely no different than the worst anti gay individual.

I suppose whats most troubling is when someone like yourself really believes your reasoning and stance against fem gays (minding their own business, living their own lives) is not only just, but noble. When your ignorance toward said fem gays by way of your own wording is exposed to you, you get very defensive, and make an instant martyr out of yourself "I didn't say anything wrong. I'm just stating my opinion, that inherently fem gays who are born with fem traits are a real stain, embarrassing, with little redeeming qualities and those of us NORMAL don't want to be associated with them. What? Can't we all just be friends?"

It's mighty calculating but we both know that.

Reminds me of the bullies who pick on fem gay kids and when cornered about it say "what? we were just horsing around. I mean, I made them feel like sh-t, but that's not my fault. listen, we should all grow thicker skin. And be able to scrutinize who we deem weaker, and judge them for it. And they need to get over it! let's all be friends"

Mighty, mightyyy calculating.

 

[eastofeden]

Oppressed groups of people oppress each other. Whoever is closest in behavoir or appearance to the oppressor are considered the most desirable members of the oppressed group.

The way to change it is within each individual and being aware of their behavoir and taking responsibility for it. Internalized homophobia affects all of us and understanding it is the first step to overcoming it.

 

[DreamDancer310]

east of eden....I love both the person in your icon photo, the book east of eden and the movie...and more over, your brilliant, logical, reasonable (and compassionate) point of view on this topic. You nailed it in a few words, and did so beautifully. Thanks for that.

I suppose it's a conversation I'm surprised we don't have more often, considering how, on a near daily basis a feminine gay child is taking a loaded gun and blowing their brains out. In their suicide letters, that I actually do pour over reading online (often in tears) they all express that it was the relentless, cruel bullying and mistreatment of them being feminine and gay that resulted in their sadness and inspired their suicide. Then you come on gay blogs, and you have nothing but resentment expressed for fem gays. It seriously fascinates me. That we don't draw a parallel about how hetero society already dictates and belittles sectors of our gay population...why are some of you all A.) Joining them and B.) Validating the bullying of fem gays by giving "justifiable" reasoning as to why fem gays should be shunned.

That the gay community seems incapable of differentiating between feminine and obnoxious, and brands both as the same thing is even more fascinating.

 

[DreamDancer310]

Love Rupaul. I tend to really respect anyone who has it "f- IT this is me- and I'm gonna be me" way of leading life, because life's short, and you should pursue your happiness if it's not harming anyone.

 

[pat grimshaw]

...your thought process instantly gravitated to "overly fem" when my post very clearly and strategically noted just FEM..

Why don't you give us an example —a gif or video— of what you're talking about so we know what we're talking about?

 

[DreamDancer310]

@ Coward

You can't be respectful and tolerant of those who you don't want to bed? You have sexual encounter and attraction bolted in your mind so much, that even in casual interaction with men..unless you find them sexually/romantically appealing..it's a no go?

Choosing to pigeon hole a "majority" of feminine men as a certain negative trait is a copout. And inaccurate. There's many a fantastic, stellar, smart, well rounded feminine gay men out there. Chioosing to highlight the negatives ones as the poster child of the majority is ignorant, and wanting to have a reason to be prejudice against them.

That's on you. But I assure you, for the average person, there's not much difference between a male cock sucker who walks like a man and a male cock sucker who has a soft voice. The fact that you put a dick in your mouth makes you just as fem to them. So think about that next time you go off on fem gays thinking you're so much more superior because you're passable
(which is a highly debatable point in and of itself, as many of us can testify that those who scream about their masculinity the most and criticize feminine men the loudest are often harboring some extremely obvious fem traits themselves, obvious to everyone around them...except for them)

 

[Nishin]

[...]

Can someone help clarify the perpetual existence of femmephobia in our community and why it's never discussed?

What younameitphobia doesn't exist in our "community"?
Just like straights, bis or any other subgroup, we're just humans.

 

[Scealle]

I think femme gays can be fun to hang around with. Don't have rl gay friends so I am not sure about the whole femmephobia thing.
Personally I think I have quite a lot of traits that are considered feminine to some, drawing, arts, skating, dancing, flexibility, quiet and I like cute things. I don't have a lot of hand gesture when I talk though

 

[DreamDancer310]

LoL....anyone notice how my question asked about why feminine gay men are demonized in our community and so many of the responders who answered why said "I hate bitches...well, it's because loud obnoxious people are annoying...well, over the top jerks anger people"

Notice how my original question didn't mention anything about obnoxious, rude, crude, over the top charcteristics and traits. Simply femminine. I said the word fem, and some took it as license to substitute the words obnoxious, over the top, bitchy, and mean...they then said "well, that's what my automatic reaction to hearing the word fem is? what's you point? when did I ever say all fem people are like that?"....Uhhh....you didn't have to. The fact that your initial reflex when being asked why femme gays are resented by you is to shoot off all sorts of negative personality traits that are NOT exclusive to being fem tells me in your own (narrow) mind...you have constructed a box for what is fem, and when hearing that word, you have a knee-jerk reaction. Then when asked why you have that knee-jerk reaction to generalize all fems as those negative traits...you retaliate by saying "No I didn't"

LoL....a lot of spinning and circling and dancing going on from the two posters. When for them, it really boils down to an irrational hatred/prejudice against men who don't act like the gender normative notion of how a man is supposed to act like.

Bitchy? mean? loud? rude? obnoxious? if that's your limited extent of what being fem is or what all fems are or what even most fem gay men are...then that's you're own limited exposure speaking.

Funny how many of us can recall knowing many well rounded, amazing, smart, loyal, poetic, artistic, insightful fem gay guys out there.

And if we're going to make generalizations about certain types (very often ONLY fem gays) in the gay community...by all means, let's spread the love and share some of our experiences and thoughts about the machismo hyper masculine crowd as well....

 

[DreamDancer310]

Thanks Bender Boy. I do agree, people are people. And in my opinion, so long as someones not mean spirited, harmless, or disrespectful....what makes humanity beautiful is our differences, and uniqueness and individuality. we should celebrate that.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…what makes humanity beautiful is our differences, and uniqueness and individuality. we should celebrate that.

Yes, but some people are more unique and more individual.

They are determined to be so.

 

[blackbeltninja]

I've always thought it a simple argument.

1. We're gay
2. We like men, not women
3. Effeminate guys come off more like women. Thus the existence of effeminate men is a dichotomy ("wait... a man, who is more like a woman? But... but... he's a MAN!?"), and it causes our brains to divide by zero and collapse.

Like special relativity, we simply don't understand it enough.

-d-

 

[rareboy]

I think that everyone has provided valid different insights here that tell us why some homos dislike the feminine traits that other homos display.

Whether right or wrong, insecurity, femmephobia, or whatever, the fact is that homos are just as tolerant/intolerant of behaviour as anyone else.

The question is; how can this be changed...or can it even be changed?

I think that once homosexuality becomes more accepted by straight cultures, the fact that some boys are more feminine may be less of an issue generally and everyone can relax more.

After that, it will be more preference than prejudice.

By the way....I have straight friends who don't like overtly feminine women either. They prefer their women to be more 'masculine' in terms of their interests and behaviour and less focussed on looks and fashion. Takes all kinds.

What isn't acceptable though, are homos complaining about other homos' feminine behaviour because it embarasses them.