Fred Phelps / Phelps Family / Westboro Baptist [mega-merged]

[figjam]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

...if we impede them from voicing their bigotry in public, what guarantee do we have that, in similar circumstances, our own points of view will not be deemed as bigoted or inappropriate, and thus deserving of censorship? Protecting their right to be execrable in their public displays of religious fervour is as essential as protecting our right to reject them because our principles are diametrically opposed to theirs. In order to be free, we must make concessions.

That is the biggest load of nonsensicle PC (sick) BS I have heard in years... Why not rather have no opinion at all and be a friend to all? It seems simpler.


This "sorry I am alive" BS is really destructive.

- - - Updated - - -

Ignoring them is feeding their hatred. They will try even harder next time.

I'm seriously thinking you're not being serious.

Make a point... we are not mind readers...

 

[Laufey]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Although I can see the point of ignoring them I also see another point.

The laws won't be changed without coverage. And it really is insane that people can take it this far all in the name of freedom of speech.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

insane is world lands 24/7

if a PR dude obama wot cost a wot lot a mons just travel ta toilet
* ALL CLEARRRRRRRRRR *
sure a make private for folk funeral

how fix so eons obvious easy but sure all world leadurs got dick on button so

thankyou

ans folk worry about robots go figa

 

[mikey3000]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Conventions of politeness and consideration towards others, as well as general notions of propriety and safety, should never be considered limitations to freedom of speech, but practical socially construed instruments that facilitate interactions and prevent communal cohesion from disintegrating into anarchy.

Expressing extreme religious, political or moral points of view, however infuriating they might be, is a form of freedom of speech, because we are allowing communities within larger society to present their reality as a part of it, and be granted both validity and representation. Just as this works in favour of traditionally oppressed groups, such as racial, ethnic or sexual orientation-defined minorities, it must work in favour of those whose ideas and principles oppose our own. While what these people are doing is distasteful at best and atrociously cruel at worst, they have a legal right to engage in these behaviours. Morally, however, we can condemn them.

Nonetheless, if we impede them from voicing their bigotry in public, what guarantee do we have that, in similar circumstances, our own points of view will not be deemed as bigoted or inappropriate, and thus deserving of censorship? Protecting their right to be execrable in their public displays of religious fervour is as essential as protecting our right to reject them because our principles are diametrically opposed to theirs. In order to be free, we must make concessions.

Totally disagree with everything you tried to say.

Again, how can we as a society tell our kids to stand up to bullying when, as adults we tolerate it ourselves. That's exactly what it is, bullying. What hypocrisy! Shameful! No wonder the kids are confused as hell. Who can blame them.

 

[MystikWizard]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

Ironically ... the WBC does more to advance Gay rights in this country than just about any group I can think of. Let them go out and protest. The more they protest, the better.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Nonetheless, if we impede them from voicing their bigotry in public, what guarantee do we have that, in similar circumstances, our own points of view will not be deemed as bigoted or inappropriate, and thus deserving of censorship? Protecting their right to be execrable in their public displays of religious fervour is as essential as protecting our right to reject them because our principles are diametrically opposed to theirs. In order to be free, we must make concessions.

Letting them voice their views in public does not mean letting them intrude into private space. What we have here is a conflict between constitutional principles, and IMO one is being used to tromp on the others.

The one principle is obvious: freedom of speech. But there are two others not so often raised: privacy, and religious freedom. A funeral is a private affair and creates a zone of privacy that should be respected as much as what people do in their own bedrooms. On top of that, a funeral is generally religious, and even when not specifically so carries with it a solemnity very like a religious affair.

On those two grounds, we should have a simple balance: if the Phelps are close enough that their presence can even be noticed in any fashion by the people at the funeral, they should be subject to both criminal action and civil suit.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Again, how can we as a society tell our kids to stand up to bullying when, as adults we tolerate it ourselves. That's exactly what it is, bullying. What hypocrisy! Shameful! No wonder the kids are confused as hell. Who can blame them.

Excellent point.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

Ironically ... the WBC does more to advance Gay rights in this country than just about any group I can think of. Let them go out and protest. The more they protest, the better.

Probably so. <sigh>

But letting them emotionally assault funeral-goers is a poor lesson to our children.

 

[chance1]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

Ironically ... the WBC does more to advance Gay rights in this country than just about any group I can think of. Let them go out and protest. The more they protest, the better.

BINGO

hate speech in effect provides good results

as difficult as it is to hear and see

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

BINGO

hate speech in effect provides good results

as difficult as it is to hear and see

That's no excuse for emotional assault.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Zoltanspawn, I'm not sure that I understand your point.

But if your question is,"How does sensible gun control relate to the topic at hand", my point about using cold, hard logic with gun control, related to the fact that many Americans, so wrapped up in the religion of ideology, cannot see or even understand the concept of "common sense" laws, or laws based on logic.

This is true both in the case of gun laws, and in the case of "Freedom of Speech"--blind ideology trumping logic or common sense. (take your pick)

As to why Americans are so comically ideological? Well, you'd have to ask somebody else that question.

JB, in post #35 you seemed to suggest that "common sense" was a good enough reason to oppose the free-speech rights of the WBC.

I don't agree.

The digression into idealism and ideology doesn't interest me at all. The comparison with gun laws doesn't interest me.

What would interest me is a reason--other than "it's common sense"--why you oppose their free-speech rights.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

why not internet 2 go funeral aans debate wit westyboros while folk escape ta funeral

make two funerals make real one very cia thang

it idea

thankyou

no obama not got pay me nothin it free idea

 

[Laufey]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

People should have freedom from harassment.

Freedom can't be endless... it should end when it clashes with the freedom of others.

Would you say that not allowing people to stone others is against freedom of religion?

Those people should be allowed to express their opinions... but there are other ways to execute it than to harass grieving relatives.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

^Ask a Canadian that question.

Okay.

Can any Canadians here explain why JohannBessler thinks the WBC doesn't deserve free-speech rights?

Or, if you Canadians can't do that, can you provide reasons why you think Americans ought to limit the speech of the WBC?

 

[gsdx]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Can any Canadians here explain why JohannBessler thinks the WBC doesn't deserve free-speech rights?

Because it is hate speech which is intended solely to get a reaction out of people. They mock the 'freedom of speech' rights and, at the same time, stomp everyone's rights into the mud. They also make a mockery of 'freedom of religion'.

Granting Phelps' small group their rights to free hate speech denies millions of Americans their own rights. And when a fallen soldier's father tried to stand up for his own rights, Phelps took him to court and the father lost. The courts told him that he had no rights. Phelps had them all.

That is a sad fact, and one which is very often ignored by those who are terrified that they might not be able to say what they really think.

 

[mikey3000]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Okay.

Can any Canadians here explain why JohannBessler thinks the WBC doesn't deserve free-speech rights?

Or, if you Canadians can't do that, can you provide reasons why you think Americans ought to limit the speech of the WBC?

How about this...

This "freedom of speech" you speak of violates MY freedoms.

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectio..._of_Rights_and_Freedoms#Freedom_of_expression

That's what kills me about Americans. There is never middle ground; no shades of grey. Everything has to be black or white, all or nothing. Every time.

You have already lost most of your basic rights anyway.

"Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush administration and the USA Patriot Act following the terror attacks:

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them."

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

^Icewater runs through your veins, Zoltanspawn.

I could answer your question. I could branch into "mental cruelty" defenses for divorces, and "intentional infliction of emotional distress" defenses for everybody else.

Then we could branch into "anti-bullying laws" (which deal with speech), and then, maybe into sexual harassment (which most often involves words). We could even reach into the treacherous waters of treason (which often involves the spoken word.)

But you already have icewater running through your veins, and nothing I say will ever change your mind.

Finis.

Icewater runs through my veins because I'm asking you to supply reasons for your opinions?

That's ridiculous.

Looks like it was easy enough for gsdx and mikey3000 to come up with a few reasons for their thoughts, quickly enough. Neither dumbly suggested, "it's common sense."

 

[mikey3000]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Please don't generalize cause that is clearly not always true.

Prove me wrong.

Look, I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but surly you must realize that those freedoms you cherish so much are not always applicable in today's world. Things have changed in the past 220 years. There was no high powered assault rifles back then. There was no global village back then. There were no crack pots protesting dead soldiers back then. The world is a changing place. Take a look.

 

[gsdx]

Re: Picketing the Funerals of Dead Children!!?? Really Westboro Baptist Church? Realty??!!

Looks like it was easy enough for gsdx and mikey3000 to come up with a few reasons for their thoughts

I have another thought, which I've offered in this forum a number of times. One person's right should never supersede another person's right. By granting Phelps his right to protest the funerals following this travesty and tragedy, the mourners are denied their rights. There is something seriously wrong with that.

 

[chance1]

Re: Westboro Scum to Protest in Newtown.

not sure if this has been shared yet but

there is a way to constructively and legally stop the madness

Go Aggies !!

Texas A&M alum Lt. Col. Roy Tisdale died on June 28 during a safety briefing at Fort Bragg, N.C. Tisdale was killed by another soldier who then fatally shot himself.

[Quote truncated by moderator] Copyright © 2012 TheHuffingtonPost.com, Inc.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/06/texas-am-students_n_1653002.html