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High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

So I'm going to quote you again since you obviously didn't remember what you said.

Seems like you did mention military there. My point still accurately stands. The US is the largest exporter of firearms in the world, both in the military and civilian sectors. It is lunacy to think that many of those civilian guns do not go to civilians in other countries and that many of those military guns do not wind up in civilian hands. We are the largest contributor to the problem.

Of course I mentioned military -- it's kind of hard to point out that you dragged the military into a subject that didn't include it without using the word.

If you're going down that route, then it excludes all of today's modern firearms and applies on to muzzle loaded muskets and sidearms. Also, since there wasn't a standing army when the Constitution was written, one could argue that a) we cannot have a standing military or b) the standing military satisfies the requirement for a well-regulated militia and thus no personal firearm ownership is needed. The right of all arms is being addressed by the amendment, which is why no specific arms were mentioned. And that right is dictated by the need for a well-regulated militia. If the need for a well-regulated militia is no longer there, then that right is no longer needed. That is the whole purpose in adding the first half of the second amendment.

No, it doesn't. I'll try again: the Second Amendment means the standard weapons of the common soldier. That means -- to go worldwide -- something like the AK-47, a 9mm sidearm, and a knife. Or are you seriously claiming that the Founding Fathers and the Framers were so dim that they didn't realize there would be advances in weaponry (which they had witnessed in their lifetimes!)?

One thing is certain, that they weren't so dim as to confuse a standing army with the militia; they believed that the militia was the proper counter to the standing army, which they saw as an instrument of tyranny. They knew the difference between the general militia, an organized or formal militia, and a standing army -- for that matter, so does US law, which makes clear that the standing army is NOT militia, and that the National Guard is formal militia up to the point when it is called up by the federal government, at which point it ceases to be militia. Just read the writings of the time, and you'll see that they held that the mere existence of a standing army was sufficient cause for the citizenry to be active and training and well-armed (part of being well-regulated) and on the alert.

Again, can you name a politician that has advocated for or introduced legislation to take away all firearms? You're arguing a position that no politician has taken. Yes, if you want to pass legislation, you're going to get support for that legislation from anyone who is willing to give it. That doesn't mean you are accepting their whole platform as your own. There is a large cross-section of people who support better regulations for firearms and they represent a wide range of views. You're choosing the most extreme view and saying that any action taken at all will lead to that end result. That is a slippery slope and it is a logical fallacy.

Advocated for legislation? Of course not -- they're not fools. But every one of them who is pals with the likes of the Brady campaign (or whatever they call themselves these days) is aiming at disarmament of "mister and misses America".

George Washington didn't write the Constitution. There have been MANY literary works written in regards to the interpretation of the Second Amendment, some in favor and some opposed. The Supreme Court has ruled (and obviously taken well-regulated to mean) that there can be restrictions on firearm sales and regulations put on their use and their possession. In fact, other than straight up across-the-board bans, they have upheld almost every regulation passed, including the previous ban on assault rifles both federally and in various states.

George Washington was commander of the combined militias of the colonies. If anyone knew what the term meant, he did. Since he wrote in those terms to the Continental Congress, he knew that they understood it in the same way he did.

As for regulations, now that the Court has finally gotten around to tackling the Second head on, they're affirming exactly what numerous decisions before have set out: that the right to keep and bear arms is individual, that it applies in private and public, that its exercise cannot be made burdensome, and most importantly that its being a right supersedes any detrimental effects.
 
Well then arms is not a term you can modify to mean today's modern weaponry. If you're going to take arms into the context of the period, then they were obviously referring to muzzle loaded, black powder firearms. They don't encompass semi-automatic weapons. They don't include pump action shotguns. They don't include high capacity magazines. They don't include laser/optical sights. None of that is included in the Second Amendment so all of that should be illegal. It's an arbitrary redefining of the terms of the Second Amendment which is a gun nuts trick whereby they can justify having whatever firearms they want while excluding anything that may weaken their "firearms uninhibited for everyone" mantra.

They specifically said that they meant the ordinary arms of the common soldier.

I don't understand this liberal penchant for ignoring standard procedures of scholarship and assuming blithely that the people who wrote the Constitution were both intellectually dim and totally disconnected from their society. It's fundamentalism at its worst: the assumption that an older document was written for you, to you, in your terms.

The SCOTUS has already acknowledged that the Framers weren't a bunch of dims, when they took pains to examine whether a shotgun was of military use: they didn't ask whether the Framers knew of such a weapon, but whether it fit the Framers intent of the standard weapons of a common soldier; in fact they were generous by considering whether it had any military use at all, with the implication that if it did, it was protected under the Second Amendment.
 
Baloney. I am not part of any militia, nor is anyone else here unless they are in the national guard. Chris Dorner is a nutcase with major mental problems. He's not fighting against anyone for anything real except for his own selfish bullshit. Please read up on the story. It's not that difficult... it's very well covered.

If you claim to not be part of the militia, you're either not a citizen, you're physically incompetent to handle a firearm, or you're in violation of the US Code. All able-bodied citizens of a certain age are the militia, by federal law.
 
This is so far out in fantasy land I'm not even going to try to reach for an answer. I'll just make one point: you just demonstrated that the one with the terrible fear of his neighbor is YOU.

Kulindahr, you have no answer because you have no case. Ultimately, despite your protestations about their leadership, you toe the NRA line, subscribe to their empty rhetoric, and your lifetime membership is the shoe that fits.

I don't fear my fellow citizens, because I know in case of any disagreement we are expecting to meet each other in a battle of wits rather than in a hail of bullets. By contrast, you fear the day that some nut-job with a gun shows up on your doorstep unbidden and unprovoked, and your whole plan for self preservation consists in hoping you're a better shot.
 
And even that relies on the assumption it can be seen coming.

Ugh. Don't even get me started. Probably the biggest thing where this (huge but not universal) chunk of Americans need to wake up is with this idea that guns actually work as advertised. They just don't offer people the protection they think they're buying.
 
How many of them would be alive now if one or more of the teachers had been armed?

Likely the same number, as the shooting took seconds - nowhere near enough time for anyone to actually do anything, with or without a gun available to them.

There is a reason why somehow those violent sprees are almost never prevented by a responsible gun-owner, even they occasionally do happen around people with guns.
 
Rights are intrinsic -- and that is a fact, one resting on the fact that each person owns himself. That IS reality, regardless of all the ideologues who have other notions.

Nope, that's ideology. Facts are quantifiable, documentable things. This is your fanatic Ayn Randian opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. And regardless of how much Holy Judgment you will put in your tone, the message remains just as flimsy.
 
There's no hypocrisy at all, just reality.

You, OTOH, are basing your position on lies, such as that in the middle of your second line.

No, it's actually fairly hypocritical. You advocate free unrestrained gun-ownership, yet cherry pick what it applies to. As for the rest, it is not a position based on lies, it is based on provable fact :)
 
"Arms" is not a term you can just take and define as you wish apart from the context. "Keep and bear arms" defines, by its common use at the time, the meaning of the term "arms", which was the personal weapons of the common soldier. Now, if you can show me that the common soldier in, say, NATO, carries a nuke around as standard weaponry, then I'll concede your claim. But as it is, you're arbitrarily redefining the terms of the Second Amendment -- which is a lawyer's trick whereby anything at all can be made to mean whatever you wish.

This is - again - an opinion you are having, that is probably shared by others, and most certainly not shared by all. "Arms" means weapons. What you THINK those weapons are "supposed" to be is quite irrelevant. The truth is, you flip-flop on this because at one point you insist those are only the things a common soldier would have, but then you claim it should be anything that the government could throw at us.

When the reality is so much simpler. The simplistic and clean way the Second is worded means one of two things - either ONLY muskets and sabres are allowed, or EVERY AND ANY weapon ever invented is. Anything else is your opinion, which, frankly, is worth less and less on the subject.
 
This is so far out in fantasy land I'm not even going to try to reach for an answer. I'll just make one point: you just demonstrated that the one with the terrible fear of his neighbor is YOU.

Incorrect. And SUDDENLY, when faced with actual counter-ideology, you fail to write a ten paragraph response. Interesting.
 
They specifically said that they meant the ordinary arms of the common soldier.

I don't understand this liberal penchant for ignoring standard procedures of scholarship and assuming blithely that the people who wrote the Constitution were both intellectually dim and totally disconnected from their society. It's fundamentalism at its worst: the assumption that an older document was written for you, to you, in your terms.

The SCOTUS has already acknowledged that the Framers weren't a bunch of dims, when they took pains to examine whether a shotgun was of military use: they didn't ask whether the Framers knew of such a weapon, but whether it fit the Framers intent of the standard weapons of a common soldier; in fact they were generous by considering whether it had any military use at all, with the implication that if it did, it was protected under the Second Amendment.

No offense, but nobody gives a fuck what they meant, just like many people don't give a fuck what the Bible's writers meant. The ONLY thing that matters is the actual wording, and what it means for modern day law.
 
There's no hypocrisy at all, just reality.

You, OTOH, are basing your position on lies, such as that in the middle of your second line.

Kul... it's very hard to take you seriously on this topic when you define the Constitution, an in some ways very dated document that was never by its framers intended to be locked and crystallized for all time in the most rigid understanding possible from the perspective of the context of 1776, as being a bible of the universal, natural human rights which existed before the Constitution and transcend laws or practical considerations of time passing and technology and society changing-- AND as having only one interpretation (yours), and then from that position you say that everyone else is lying.

We're not lying, we're not being dishonest. We're not "spouting falsehoods." Those statements are only true working from a perspective that you are unquestionably right in your interpretation and no one else is, end of discussion. That's clearly what you believe but it's not what the rest of us believe and we're not being "dishonest" in what we're saying.
 
The founding fathers believed strongly because the were all too aware of the tyranny which result when individuals have the authority to change the law or Constitution. They believed " ours should be a government of laws and not of men". Laws are to changed by the Democratic process, not by the whim of judges or Presidents.
 
The founding fathers believed strongly because the were all too aware of the tyranny which result when individuals have the authority to change the law or Constitution. They believed " ours should be a government of laws and not of men". Laws are to changed by the Democratic process, not by the whim of judges or Presidents.

You are totally correct. Laws are also to be changed by the democratic process and not by enabling our mentally ill to get guns and shoot at us out of some antiquated notion that we are going to fight our own government with handguns.

I'll never understand people who use that excuse-- and it's an excuse-- when we can't even get a high voter turnout. If people truly care so much about the direction of government they'd ensure through their votes that they never have the kind of government they'd ever need to worry about fighting in the streets with firearms.
 
You are totally correct. Laws are also to be changed by the democratic process and not by enabling our mentally ill to get guns and shoot at us out of some antiquated notion that we are going to fight our own government with handguns.

I'll never understand people who use that excuse-- and it's an excuse-- when we can't even get a high voter turnout. If people truly care so much about the direction of government they'd ensure through their votes that they never have the kind of government they'd ever need to worry about fighting in the streets with firearms.



Yeah, it's really hypocritical to bitch and moan about the need to fight the government, yet not be bothered to go vote for that government.
 
Baloney. That's twisting it. There is no "militia" asides from the national guard (technically), and maybe the police. It's old language that doesn't apply to the real world.

Federal law defines the militia, and it's all able-bodied citizens between 16 and 60 (unless they've changed it recently). Federal law recognizes the National Guard as units of the formal militia, being under state authority but being citizen-soldiers. They cease to be militia when the federal government calls them up, because they are then standing army. But the rest of us remain the militia, regardless of whether we even own a firearm.

That is, after all, the authority for a military draft: since we are the militia, the federal government has the authority to call us up for service.
 
Kulindahr, you have no answer because you have no case. Ultimately, despite your protestations about their leadership, you toe the NRA line, subscribe to their empty rhetoric, and your lifetime membership is the shoe that fits.

I don't fear my fellow citizens, because I know in case of any disagreement we are expecting to meet each other in a battle of wits rather than in a hail of bullets. By contrast, you fear the day that some nut-job with a gun shows up on your doorstep unbidden and unprovoked, and your whole plan for self preservation consists in hoping you're a better shot.

Your whole case rests on the assumption that the reports of violent crime daily are false, or that you are somehow immune, or that you just don't care to take responsibility for yourself.

Carrying a firearm is no different than having air bags or getting a flu shot: all three are about facing reality and doing something to take responsibility.
 
Nope, that's ideology. Facts are quantifiable, documentable things. This is your fanatic Ayn Randian opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. And regardless of how much Holy Judgment you will put in your tone, the message remains just as flimsy.

No matter how much you deny it, self-ownership is a fact. It's observable and demonstrable, not just psychologically but medically.
 
We call that "making shit up" :)

So sound scholarship is now "making shit up" when you don't like it.

"Militia" and "keep and bear arms" are terms that had specific meanings when the Second Amendment was framed and established. That you keep yourself ignorant of those meanings doesn't give a license to dismiss those meanings.
 
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