High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

[youfiad]

I'm not sure as to whether or not the argument has been made by anyone else, but I would like to point out that Switzerland does not have the same crime issues as the USA does and it is loaded with assault riffels in private homes..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Number_of_guns_in_circulation

 

[Rolyo85]

I'm not sure as to whether or not the argument has been made by anyone else, but I would like to point out that Switzerland does not have the same crime issues as the USA does and it is loaded with assault riffels in private homes..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Number_of_guns_in_circulation

It has, and the answer to that is that unlike the ignorant armed to the teeth masses in the US, Switzerland has mandatory military training.

 

[xbuzzerx]

It has, and the answer to that is that unlike the ignorant armed to the teeth masses in the US, Switzerland has mandatory military training.

I also presume it has national healthcare.

 

[youfiad]

It has, and the answer to that is that unlike the ignorant armed to the teeth masses in the US, Switzerland has mandatory military training.

I'm not seeing how manditory military training should play into this equation. Does being in the military make people less crazy?? Not from what I've seen, quite to the contrary.

Switzerland has strict laws on how those guns can be used, and those rifles are with reserve officers.



And this from that source... it still doesn't stack up compared to the US.

I don't understand what you're trying ot say. How guns can be used? Laws?

I agree that we probably have more guns percapita, but comparitively speaking, the proportions are way out of wack. There's something else that's going on that isn't gun numbers themselves.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I'm not seeing how manditory military training should play into this equation. Does being in the military make people less crazy?? Not from what I've seen, quite to the contrary.

It means they're all trained and qualified in how to handle guns and gun safety, at the bare minimum-- something you probably cannot say with any certainty for a majority of all gun owners in the U.S., for one.

For two a lot of these crazed shooters you do see in the U.S. with military backgrounds are vets and have a host of psychological problems, like this cop in LA at the moment as one instance. Switzerland's pretty famous for NOT getting involved in wars.

So no, not military training PER SE, but regimented training in gun use and safety is a given in Switzerland and is not in the United States. In part because of --- full circle --- NRA insistences upon no/as a little regulation as possible.

 

[youfiad]

It means they're all trained and qualified in how to handle guns and gun safety, at the bare minimum-- something you probably cannot say with any certainty for a majority of all gun owners in the U.S., for one.

For two a lot of these crazed shooters you do see in the U.S. with military backgrounds are vets and have a host of psychological problems, like this cop in LA at the moment as one instance. Switzerland's pretty famous for NOT getting involved in wars.

So no, not military training PER SE, but regimented training in gun use and safety is a given in Switzerland and is not in the United States. In part because of --- full circle --- NRA insistences upon no/as a little regulation as possible.

I don't think gun safety is truly on the minds of most psychopaths who commit such horrible acts of terror. You do make a valid point on the returning Vet problem though. However, I don't think your first pointi holds any validity.

Once again, I want to stress that I am not even addressing the NRA's stance on gun control; they're a bunch of republican morons.

Switzerland has far more strict laws than the US. I don't know why gun advocates cite Switzerland. Those who own guns are required to pass psychological testing and extensive training. This is not the case in the United States.

More gun laws? From what I can see, they're pretty open to guns. They arent required to pass psychological testing, but they are unable to own one if they fail psychological testing.

 

[Rolyo85]

I'm not seeing how manditory military training should play into this equation. Does being in the military make people less crazy?? Not from what I've seen, quite to the contrary.

It teaches actual gun responsibility, unlike here where that phrase is only paid lip service. And obviously they don't have the same "yay! Guns for everyone!" Laws the US has, since apparently crazies still have no access to them.

 

[youfiad]

It teaches actual gun responsibility, unlike here where that phrase is only paid lip service. And obviously they don't have the same "yay! Guns for everyone!" Laws the US has, since apparently crazies still have no access to them.

Actually, according to my limited knowledge, they are precisely "guns for everyone"

The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home (until 2007 this also included ammunition[3]). Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable.[4] Annually, approximately 20,000 persons are trained in basic training for a duration from 18 to 21 weeks (increased from 15 weeks, in 2003).

All I am saying, and have been saying, that there are elements that are being ignored from the "Ban automatic guns" people. I'm not trying to push a pro gun agenda, because quite frankly, I think guns are stupid anyway. I just have to stand up when things aren't making sense or people are arguing without just cause (in my opinion).

 

[xbuzzerx]

I don't think gun safety is truly on the minds of most psychopaths who commit such horrible acts of terror. You do make a valid point on the returning Vet problem though. However, I don't think your first pointi holds any validity.

Once again, I want to stress that I am not even addressing the NRA's stance on gun control; they're a bunch of republican morons.

Gun safety training probably wouldn't stop a psychopath; true. That's where the mental health part comes in. It would however stop this utterly retarded crap like 8 people being shot 'accidentally' on Gun Appreciation Day, or at least minimize gun accidents and accidental shootings, which would certainly be a start. Everyone's quick to point out that Lanza's mother was incompetent for not having properly secured her guns but what reason do we even have to believe she would have known how to do so? No training or certification is required in the U.S. in order to get some firearms.

 

[youfiad]

The US isn't Switzerland. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges. Switzerland has a different structure. And it's interesting from your citation... that ammunition is NOT kept at home (at least until 2007). So the guns are basically empty at home? This is a VERY different situation. And what elements are ignored? Pay attention to your own sources.

Switzerland apparently is tightening up its own laws in recent years.

No, the US isn't Switzerland, that's part of the point. People keep saying that high gun ownage = higher murder rates, when it simple isn't and doesn't have to be the case.

The law that you're stating actually required them to keep MILITARY amunition at home until 2007. If I understand correctly, they can just get their own at home.

 

[youfiad]

Gun safety training probably wouldn't stop a psychopath; true. That's where the mental health part comes in. It would however stop this utterly retarded crap like 8 people being shot 'accidentally' on Gun Appreciation Day, or at least minimize gun accidents and accidental shootings, which would certainly be a start. Everyone's quick to point out that Lanza's mother was incompetent for not having properly secured her guns but what reason do we even have to believe she would have known how to do so? No training or certification is required in the U.S. in order to get some firearms.

I'd say 99 times out of 100, gun related deaths aren't accidental, and that's being highly generous. And I'm sure that if you look at numbers, there are still most likely accidental deaths there too. Once again, not a specialist, nor do I care to be, I'm merely scepitical of overly dramaticized arguments that are more emotionally appealing that logically sound (the types of arguments I commonly hear surrounding many issues).

I think that point about Lanza's mother is far reaching. Sure it's entirely possible that she was retarded, but to assume that it's probably or even the most likely scenario is just bologna in my opinion.

I do think that you did raise a valid point, and it's a point that I tend to resort to in most of my arguments. That is that our country is lacking in general education and that learning to think isn't stressed enough in our classes. People can only see what's directly in front of their eyes, and tome, tat's quite scary, moreso than the guns. But as far as the no training or certification being required in the USA, that's the same rule in Switzerland, and the're not suffering the same problem.

Nap time, again...

 

[Rolyo85]

Actually, you are incorrect. What people are saying is that EASY ACCESSIBILITY of guns = higher murder rates. Be it guns that are given away at gun shows with no background checks, or weapons insecurely stored and stolen. The number of guns - while also relevant - isn't the major factor in this problem.

 

[Apollo]

A Active Duty swiss commented on gun laws in Switzerland.

"The bottom left is a fake and not from Switzerland, because the only rifle you're able to own here is your military service weapon, with full auto disabled. People who didn't serve in the army can hardly get any kind of weapon. The ammunition is distributed only on official government licenced shooting ranges and you're not allowed to have any ammo at home, the military police can come to your home unanounced any day and check for illegal ammunition and take your rifle away. In public you will see many former servicemen and women with their rifle on their way to their annual official shooting test to make sure they still have military standards!! Outside of the range and the army you can only move around withe the bolt taken out of your rifle and stored seperately!
Greetings from a currently active Swiss infantryman!"

 

[youfiad]

The US isn't Switzerland. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges. Switzerland has a different structure. And it's interesting from your citation... that ammunition is NOT kept at home (at least until 2007). So the guns are basically empty at home? This is a VERY different situation. And what elements are ignored? Pay attention to your own sources.

Switzerland apparently is tightening up its own laws in recent years.

It's not an apples and orange argument, stop resorting to it as though claiming so is actually changing anything. I'm not claiming that they are equal in every way, quite to the contrary.

 

[youfiad]

Actually, you are incorrect. What people are saying is that EASY ACCESSIBILITY of guns = higher murder rates. Be it guns that are given away at gun shows with no background checks, or weapons insecurely stored and stolen. The number of guns - while also relevant - isn't the major factor in this problem.

The name of the thread is "High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report "

 

[youfiad]

A Active Duty swiss commented on gun laws in Switzerland.

Seems inconsistent from other things I've been reading

Only if you are in the military. however every male is required to undergo mandatory military service when they hit 18 , they are required to take the gun home. Also when they complete their service they have the option to keep their service rifle (but the automatic mechanism is removed)

Its easy to get a gun if you are a citizen there are even huge shooting festivals, even youth competitions as a result Swiss are excellent marksmen. Bullets are subsidized by the government in switzerland (they are very cheap) and there is a very strong gun culture and has been this way since guns were invented. Switzerland is famous for its citizen militia in fact the swiss militia system inspired the US 2nd amendment.

Kaiser Wilhelm once asked 'what can a quarter million swiss militia do to a half million german soldiers?" when he planned to invade switzerland, to which a swiss man replied 'shoot twice and go home'.

An interesting thing is that crime in Switzerland is very low so more guns= less crime?

 

[Rolyo85]

The name of the thread is "High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report "

What the name of the thread is, isn't very relevant for what the overarching discussion - that has now spanned over 30 threads on CE&P - is actually about. Yes, the fact that there are too many guns IS a problem. But not THE biggest gun problem.

As for the Switzerland comparison, there are just too many glaring differences for it to be of any use.

 

[Apollo]

Seems inconsistent from other things I've been reading

Only if you are in the military. however every male is required to undergo mandatory military service when they hit 18 , they are required to take the gun home. Also when they complete their service they have the option to keep their service rifle (but the automatic mechanism is removed)

Its easy to get a gun if you are a citizen there are even huge shooting festivals, even youth competitions as a result Swiss are excellent marksmen. Bullets are subsidized by the government in switzerland (they are very cheap) and there is a very strong gun culture and has been this way since guns were invented. Switzerland is famous for its citizen militia in fact the swiss militia system inspired the US 2nd amendment.

Kaiser Wilhelm once asked 'what can a quarter million swiss militia do to a half million german soldiers?" when he planned to invade switzerland, to which a swiss man replied 'shoot twice and go home'.

An interesting thing is that crime in Switzerland is very low so more guns= less crime?

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

This website has everything you need to know on gun ownership in Switzerland or any country and the impact it has on society in statistics and references laws.

 

[youfiad]

it's absolutely apples and oranges. Total apples and oranges. They are two different countries and two different cultures. Stop trying to compare the two.

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Wikipedia isn't the most accurate.

And Switzerland doesn't have that low crime rates.

So then what you're saying in essence is that it it's our culture that's at fault and not guns at all, since we both have that in common. The only outlying variable is culture?

By the way, that wasn't a wiki quote. And i will refute that wikipedia isn't most accurate. Most of wikipedia has heavily secured sources.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I think that point about Lanza's mother is far reaching. Sure it's entirely possible that she was retarded, but to assume that it's probably or even the most likely scenario is just bologna in my opinion.

You think this because you have a hard reason to believe it, or just hand on your hip "you don't think so"?

Everything I've read indicated that she had guns pretty much all over the house and Lanza didn't have to go to any great trouble to pick them up.