Hillary Clinton and her presidential-loss, blame game of excluding herself

[luckynumbah7]

I think it's not rehashing losses but reflecting and from there find a new way forward.

What reflection

 

[MystikWizard]

I am just curious if anyone thinks Hillary's new book, "What Happened", is a good idea on her part.

It appears she was late to her first signing in New York.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillar...-on-sale/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=42127686

 

[Sausy]

If Hillary were to try honesty for a change, she would have named her book "WHAT HAPPENED???????????????!!"

or "WTF???????????"

It's good of you Julian to give her the benefit of the doubt, but she continues to give plenty of evidence she doesn't REALLY get it or ever will.

She superficially accepts blame, but just as quickly throws stuff in other directions...her passive aggressive hostility to Bernie gives severe incredulity to her actually being reflective and thoughtful(though not some of his most unyielding supporters, who are as bad as the Trump "deplorables", probably worse as they should know better. And in her calling a sizable segment of Trump supporters that name, in actuality that's one important point she got spot on.

 

[Sausy]

To anyone who still believes Hillary Clinton has the best interests of the Democratic Party and the American people at heart and is really going to reflect and show thoughtfulness and humility here... think again. Read the most recent article on her by Aaron Blake at the Washington Post... full on vengeance mode and heat seeking missiles against any move to a progressive agenda. Certainly she will not forgive or forget Bernie Sanders... NOT the noxious few Bernie bros who would rather support Trump at the expense of the American people, but literally against Bernie Sanders and his message to the Dems to stand for strong progressive principles. You know, like that lefty wingnut FDR. Hillary Clinton hasn't changed and will NEVER change. I'll NEVER be with her... I want leaders who are unyieldingly with us.

If she had shown some real contrition and reached out and admitted she genuinely believed she has done a lot of damage to himself with her actions and how she is perceived, I would have moved into a conciliatory position as well. But if she's not only going to burn the bridges but commence bombing what remains and utterly destroying things rather than setting the Democratic Party on its principled ,progressive best standing, FDR values.... no way, no time for making nice.

 

[Benvolio]

^ It's a common tactic here to try to divert the attention away from Trump and to Clinton. It never works. The point is that Trump is president, not Clinton. What is happening in the United States is Trump's doing, and he is responsible for it. It is because of Trump that blatant discrimination is allowed and often rewarded by not dealing with it.

Indeed. Thank you. Median income is at an all time high; employment high, unemployment low, fewer illigal immigrants; the stock market at a record high, up 2 trillion dollars under Trump. You are correct, it is Trump's doing.

 

[KaraBulut]

Indeed. Thank you. Median income is at an all time high; employment high, unemployment low, fewer illigal immigrants; the stock market at a record high, up 2 trillion dollars under Trump. You are correct, it is Trump's doing.

Since he's fixed everything in 6 months, will he resign now?

 

[opinterph]

Read the most recent article on her by Aaron Blake at the Washington Post...

[LFLOAT]Which one?[/LFLOAT]

Aaron Blake
Reporter — Washington, D.C.​

 

[KaraBulut]

[LFLOAT]Which one?[/LFLOAT]

Aaron Blake
Reporter — Washington, D.C.​

Probably the one in The Fix?

 

[Sausy]

Probably the one in The Fix?

Indeed, the one. Hillary wants to launch all out war against reformists wreaking vengeance out of a sense of pettiness and entitlement, she's welcome to it. But she shows unmistakably the problem ISN'T Bernie or his message... it's her and those in the leadership with her mentality.

 

[Sausy]

And before one of Hillary's apologists comes out pointing at apparent Bernie "hypocrisy" on a vote in 2007 regarding an immigration reform bill he DID join fifteen other Democrats in opposing which failed to pass, try reading the real history of the bill and the real complexities involved. When the time came again in 2013, any of the reservations Sanders had were ameliorated and he strongly backed that bill as he strongly supports the current effort. What we have on Hillary Clinton's part, you can go through a sizable list of efforts she supposedly claims to be a progressive on, but opposed or conveniently flip flopped when the prevailing sentiments no longer were in vogue. The facts, when viewed with intellectual and moral honesty and credibility, are with him. They too, are sure not "with her".

 

[bankside]

I think it's a little bonkers to go on for too long in rehashing the last democratic primary when the priority has to be consolidating support for a credible challenger to the Orange Buffoon.

Yet, consolidating probably requires understanding what went wrong. Sigh.

Hillary "flip flopping" is seen as some big stain on her credibility. It's true that by comparison, theocons have been more likely to be uniformly and ruthlessly consistent in their opposition to human dignity, and in their contempt for a society that puts all people ahead of where they started instead of bleeding the losers to feed the victors.

But a politician changing her position or only supporting something luke-warmly doesn't prove any failings of integrity. If you want to cross a river in a boat, you might be able to paddle straight there. You might also face strong currents and rapids, forced to detour, turn back, and drift downstream for a while, depending on the hazards you find in the water. That doesn't make you a shitty canoeist or a self-serving charlatan.

There's no question that Clinton tried to steer the boat in the right direction. I don't begrudge her the judgment or the wisdom to decide that she might have pushed the country as far as it could go on a certain topic, even if she had further to take it. That's not unprincipled or unethical. It's a judgment call that a leader has to make. I don't even care if Clinton made the wrong call about when to turn the canoe: I'm defending the need for a leader to make a call like that, and the brains for her to know that kind of strategy is necessary.

Fuck, even Trump knew enough to do that. He'd say something horrific and then back pedal long enough to see how many people he brought with him. Even fucking britebart boy is encouraging Trump to have an end game that they don't draw attention to, with interim plans for where to steer their boat, and only get there in stages when they think the public will let them get away with it.

If Fucking breitbart can figure that out, we can't deny Clinton the right to push one step at a time in the same way. And we have to question the smarts of the strategy coming from people who want to dump in Hillary as unprincipled just because she doesn't start ranting on immediately about "late-stage capitalism."

Lots of her critics want to just paddle that boat straight across the river to the policy of their dreams. It doesn't work like that. You just end up bailing out a sinking canoe.

 

[Sausy]

I happen to strongly disagree with your conclusion. But in the end, whatever she thinks or no matter how her defenders still can't even cede any ground to the points of her detractors... the words of Hillary Clinton and her often contradictory actions speak for themselves. I'm more certain and glad than ever I wasn't and will never be "with her". If Breitbart AND Hillary both are good with a two-faced game, they deserve each other. What is important is that slowly, certainly... the tide is turning away from Hillary's vision and ambitions and as we have seen her in the past few days for what she really is... we should turn the page and move on without her. She can't let it go but we as a nation cannot afford her petty, classless wrathful vengeance.

 

[kallipolis]

Few politicians are natural leaders, with most following the prevailing tide that will hopefully get them elected.
Hillary Clinton is a run of the mill politician, not a trail blazer with a determination to change society. Nevertheless Hillary Clinton represents a willingness to change society for the better, at the pace set by the electorate. Woe behold those politicians who wish to out run the will of the voter.

Most politicians known to me are content to move with the tide, knowing that the electorate creates the momentum.

 

[bankside]

Even Bernie was with her in the election!!!

Even Bernie changed where his canoe was aimed because he couldn't paddle straight across the river! Fuck.

 

[kallipolis]

^Bernie is as pragmatic as any politician with a willingness to understand that ones agenda cannot be implemented in a day, simply because it is the right thing to do....Universal health care is an example that the United States clearly needs to import, with Canada's system an ideal example to follow.

Rome was not built in a day.

 

[KaraBulut]

Indeed, the one. Hillary wants to launch all out war against reformists wreaking vengeance out of a sense of pettiness and entitlement, she's welcome to it. But she shows unmistakably the problem ISN'T Bernie or his message... it's her and those in the leadership with her mentality.

I'm not sure how many people have actually read the book (I've bought it but probably won't start it for another week) but from the Sander's quotes that I've seen, it's a mixed bag (only the negative ones have been covered by the media, of course) but is pretty accurate, fact-wise. He did do her campaign a lot of damage and he was never called out for the thinness of many of his major proposals.

The thing that I've always found with both of the Clintons is that they're extremely good at analysis of the past and the present. For example, if you watch the video of Hillary interacting with Black Lives Matter activists, she's extremely good at listening and distilling down a lot of the semi-coherent rhetoric of the discussion into very keen observations.

Where Hillary lacks is the ability to forsee the future or to factor in the illogical/emotional aspects (something that Bill has a natural gift for). While that cool, analytical intelligence is a great strength as a lawyer and a legislator, it's a terrible failing in a politician running for major office.

^Bernie is as pragmatic as any politician with a willingness to understand that ones agenda cannot be implemented in a day, simply because it is the right thing to do....Universal health care is an example that the United States clearly needs to import, with Canada's system an ideal example to follow.

Rome was not built in a day.

I wouldn't describe Bernie as pragmatic in the least bit. Bernie is part activist and part idealist. He has great ideas but has no idea how to implement them or pay for them. It's true of most of his proposals- ideas that I would be happy to see implemented- but like so many of these grand "ideas", it's all strategy and little tactics.

It's a universal American failure- we're great at big ideas and building big things, but we never want to plan for the maintenance or the cost of the maintenance. It's true of our infrastructure and it's true of our social programs.

One of the reasons that Bernie attracted so many younger Democrats is that these big strategies sound like great ideas. But those of us who are older remember these same ideas coming around in the 60s and 70s with mixed successes and a lot of failures. Those failures are exactly what brought us the centrist administration of Bill Clinton in the 90s.

 

[kallipolis]

^Bernie's decisiveness in swinging his campaign behind Hillary spoke of his pragmatic choice to support the Democratic Party candidate.

Bernie's ideas such as universal health care have become much more main stream in the national debate, and I believe that Bernie should be thanked for his initiative in continuing to work on universal health care as his labour of love.

 

[kallipolis]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/14/universal-healthcare-america-bernie-sanders

I'm rather partial to an odd ball politician who can engage the mainstream political arena in debate on such matters as universal health care, and as a result encourage people to discuss its merits enabling the political elite to recognise that they can obtain some political capital by not dismissing such ideas.

I quote:

Sanders is an unusual politician because he’s been willing to lead on an issue before its broad popularity was established. For decades, he has roamed the political wilderness crying out for European or Canadian-style single-payer healthcare. He has done it through Democratic and Republican administrations, no matter the electorate’s political orientation at any given time. It is something he believes in.

 

[KaraBulut]

^Bernie's decisiveness in swinging his campaign behind Hillary spoke of his pragmatic choice to support the Democratic Party candidate.

There were two problems with Bernie: his last minute change from "independent" to "Democrat" to run for President and his reneging on a promise to not run a negative campaign against the actual Democrat who was running.

I'm not sure how it played outside the US but the Bernie supporters were unruly and bitter to the end. Some of it was the nature of the 2016 election that had an anti-establishment bent on both sides- Republican and Democrat. A lot of it had a misogynistic tone- ergo the term "Bernie Bros".

You can follow the tone of the Bernie vs Hillary tension in Sarah Silverman's speech at the convention- starting at 2:00 Silverman starts her speech, at 4:30 you can hear the booing when Sarah is praising Hillary and at 5:45 she finally calls out the "Bernie or Bust" crowd. When they pan through the audience, you can see the Bernie Bros with the signs and other accoutrement:

Bernie's ideas such as universal health care have become much more main stream in the national debate, and I believe that Bernie should be thanked for his initiative in continuing to work on universal health care as his labour of love.

I agree with you about the value that Bernie brought to the discussion.

There was a period in American politics when we weren't afraid of discussing ideas, even if it involved discussions between Republicans and Democrats. These days, there's such a logjam of dogma and ideology on the left and the right. And special interests and the perpetual outrage machine prevents discussion of new and revolutionary ideas.

The "Medicare-for-all" has been proposed several times in the past and no one has expressed an interest. Sanders just reintroduced another Medicare-for-all" bill this week and 5 Democratic senators have signed on to discuss. Sanders deserves credit for bringing these issues into the 2016 campaign.

 

[mikey3000]

Oh, sounds exactly like President Donald J. Trump. He has yet to take any responsibility for anything he has done. By blaming everyone else, he, too, is saying that "Absolutely nothing" is his fault.

So, your point is...?

Um, this is not about Trump, it's about Kilary. Stop trolling.