I just want a white boyfriend.

[theblackajah]

Once again, chimere, saying that you've countered an argument is not the same as actually countering it.

I've re-read over your previous posts- nowhere do you pose any logical statements that attempt to prove my arguments as fallacious.

Secondly, if I had the choice between being re-born Asian or Caucasian - I wouldn't know which to choose. I've never been white, so I'd have to ask around for perspectives, because choosing a race is more than just choosing appearance - it's choosing an entire culture to be born into.

And no, I do not hate myself, nor do I hate Asians. I have many Asian friends, and as I've said, I've been attracted to Asians. Once again, admitting that perhaps another race has a physical advantage is not the same as hate or racism, just as saying that most women are not as physically strong or muscled as most men is most certainly not chauvinistic.

 

[theblackajah]

Because they're so insecure with themselves, and also they have grown up and been socialized in a society where the white male was seen as ideal, and constructed a "masculine" identity that is racial. There's the whole rebelling-against-conservative-parents element too, because many Asians see conservatism as manifesting itself in the social construction known as "race". I've seen Asians see "whiteness" (blonde hair, blue eyes, pale skin) as desirable, and thus "non-white" attributes such as large lips, narrow eyes, and epicanthal folds are undesirable. They're all chasing for this ideal - the seancody, fratmen, corbinfisher type, and it only breeds contempt and racism among their own race in some sort of competitive way where white men are a commodity that they all chase after.

The sad consequence is that you see so many hot asian and black guys that "settle" for a white guy who's older and much more uglier than what they deserve simply because they buy into this race nonsense. It is so shallow and unfortunately, gay men are profoundly awesome at being shallow.

From your posts alone, YOU seem to hate Asians more than anyone else in this thread. You have the most bitterness, the most resentment, not only towards Asians but towards Caucasians AND blacks.

Perhaps you should address the psychological factors that are leading to your rage and bitterness, rather than blaming everyone else for having preference hrm?

 

[chimere]

Once again, chimere, saying that you've countered an argument is not the same as actually countering it.

I've re-read over your previous posts- nowhere do you pose any logical statements that attempt to prove my arguments as fallacious.

Secondly, if I had the choice between being re-born Asian or Caucasian - I wouldn't know which to choose. I've never been white, so I'd have to ask around for perspectives, because choosing a race is more than just choosing appearance - it's choosing an entire culture to be born into.

And no, I do not hate myself, nor do I hate Asians. I have many Asian friends, and as I've said, I've been attracted to Asians. Once again, admitting that perhaps another race has a physical advantage is not the same as hate or racism, just as saying that most women are not as physically strong or muscled as most men is most certainly not chauvinistic.

Well outline your previous arguments in a coherent matter and I will make a rebuttal.

Funny how you also outline that there is more to being human than what is skin-deep, but you obviously don't notice this when "preferring white men" over Asians.

What is even more sick is your comparison that Asians are inherently genetically inferior to white men the same way women are not as physically strong as men. Wow.

From your posts alone, YOU seem to hate Asians more than anyone else in this thread. You have the most bitterness, the most resentment, not only towards Asians but towards Caucasians AND blacks.

Perhaps you should address the psychological factors that are leading to your rage and bitterness, rather than blaming everyone else for having preference hrm?

I hate Asians? And Caucasians and blacks? Excuse me? That is simply a lie and you're obviously trying to making trolling comments because nowhere have I said anything about having racial preferences or hating any race.

What I do hate are racists like you that make the dumbest arguments out of complacency in thinking you have the entire social world figured out. "I'm asian and I have asian friends" therefore I'm not racist. Or as many Americans say, "I'm not racist, but..."

FYI, I've screwed around with guys of every race and I don't limit myself to "preferring" once race over the other like you do, like so many other self-hating minorities.

EDIT: You are confused about my comments about Asians and their preferences. It is obvious many of them are potato queens with racial preferences like you, undoubtedly. And I am relentlessly critical of that racist notion.

However, that is not to say I am racist against Asians. I expected you to have the basic comprehension to differentiate between speaking at a structural level and acting at an individual level. I know that Asians may be racist potato queens, but I would never be racist to an Asian that messaged me (since he obviously knows my race as listed). Not all Asians are potato queens and I would be glad to talk to many of them. You, on the other hand, prejudge, and see white men as superior before anything. I do not make prejudgments nor support prejudice. And consequently, I would never ever bother talking to someone like you. But someone like you would never ever bother talking to me because I am Asian, anyways.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

Secondly, if I had the choice between being re-born Asian or Caucasian - I wouldn't know which to choose. I've never been white, so I'd have to ask around for perspectives, because choosing a race is more than just choosing appearance - it's choosing an entire culture to be born into

Oh my, theblackajah. I'm sorry to hear that. That's an unfortunate dilemma. I would not seriously consider wanting to be reborn another race. This skin I'm in is way too much fun, with guys asking me if I taste like chocolate! I welcome the curiosity that comes with differentness. Who wants to be a clone.

Seriously. I think you might find members of your own race less attractive than others do if because you're looking too hard, and too critically for flaws, which we all have, even whites.

It's true that asian men, on average, may have different physical dimensions than whites, and less body hair. But really, there's more to sex than being big and hairy.

Unlike others in this thread, I think your preferences are so deeply embedded that it's probably too late to change.

I wish you luck, and love!

 

[theblackajah]

Well outline your previous arguments in a coherent matter and I will make a rebuttal.

Funny how you also outline that there is more to being human than what is skin-deep, but you obviously don't notice this when "preferring white men" over Asians.

What is even more sick is your comparison that Asians are inherently genetically inferior to white men the same way women are not as physically strong as men. Wow.

I hate Asians? And Caucasians and blacks? Excuse me? That is simply a lie and you're obviously trying to making trolling comments because nowhere have I said anything about having racial preferences or hating any race.

What I do hate are racists like you that make the dumbest arguments out of complacency in thinking you have the entire social world figured out. "I'm asian and I have asian friends" therefore I'm not racist. Or as many Americans say, "I'm not racist, but..."

FYI, I've screwed around with guys of every race and I don't limit myself to "preferring" once race over the other like you do, like so many other self-hating minorities.

EDIT: You are confused about my comments about Asians and their preferences. It is obvious many of them are potato queens with racial preferences like you, undoubtedly. And I am relentlessly critical of that racist notion.

However, that is not to say I am racist against Asians. I expected you to have the basic comprehension to differentiate between speaking at a structural level and acting at an individual level. I know that Asians may be racist potato queens, but I would never be racist to an Asian that messaged me (since he obviously knows my race as listed). Not all Asians are potato queens and I would be glad to talk to many of them. You, on the other hand, prejudge, and see white men as superior before anything. I do not make prejudgments nor support prejudice. And consequently, I would never ever bother talking to someone like you. But someone like you would never ever bother talking to me because I am Asian, anyways.

If you'd like to see my points in a coherent manner, look back to one of my original posts. I bullet-pointed it just for people like you. Hopefully bullet points are coherent enough, nay?

Secondly, it's quite amusing how fervent you are about Asians not being inferior in any single way to another race. The very thought of it seems to drive you crazy. Is it so hard to simply wrap your mind around the fact that not all races are equal in every way?

And, since you seem to be getting the wrong impression, my argument is that Asians are inherently -physically- less attractive, on a distributed statistical basis, compared to Caucasians. Asians, as an entire -race-, are NOT inferior. Asians have certain traits that are superior to other races, but these traits are more cultural than genetic.

Not all races are equal in every manner. Just as Kenyans are better at track and field than anyone else, and just as blacks tend to be better at given sports like basketball.

 

[theblackajah]

Oh my, theblackajah. I'm sorry to hear that. That's an unfortunate dilemma. I would not seriously consider wanting to be reborn another race. This skin I'm in is way too much fun, with guys asking me if I taste like chocolate! I welcome the curiosity that comes with differentness. Who wants to be a clone.

Seriously. I think you might find members of your own race less attractive than others do if because you're looking too hard, and too critically for flaws, which we all have, even whites.

It's true that asian men, on average, may have different physical dimensions than whites, and less body hair. But really, there's more to sex than being big and hairy.

Unlike others in this thread, I think your preferences are so deeply embedded that it's probably too late to change.

I wish you luck, and love!

I'm happy for you. As for me, like I said - I wouldn't necessarily choose to be another race over being Asian. All I said was that I'd have to make an informed decision before choosing, ie. weighing all the pro's and con's of the choices set before me.

 

[theblackajah]

I just realize, chimere, that looking back and finding a post might be too difficult for you. So here:

Some reasons why Asian men are physically less attractive, on a statistical frequency basis:

- The all-too-common girly-asian-haircut trend
- Genetic tendency for asian men to be slightly shorter and skinnier, with significantly less musculature
- Cultural emphasis on books/brains over body: ie. "focus on your studies, not sports"

And to bullet point the further reasoning for you...

- Another reason why asian men tend to be less attractive, I feel, is because of millenia of breeding based on societal status/wealth rather than physical characteristics. In fact, this is still common up until today

- This results in the non-promotion of attractive physical traits over generations of breeding, therefore these traits do not become common/widespread - and the result? The fraction of asian men who are physically attractive being significantly less.

 

[theblackajah]

For those interested in actual empirical data and studies:

Mok, Teresa Ann (2000) Attractiveness in Asian faces: Effects of race, gender, and ethnic identity. Ph.D. dissertation, Purdue University, United States -- Indiana. Retrieved March 15, 2008, from ProQuest Digital Dissertations database. (Publication No. AAT 3017840).

The study found that out of 4 races rating the attractiveness of males of those 4 races, ALL 4 races rated Asians as least attractive. In fact, Asians were the ones that rated other Asians as being most attractive. Caucasians were rated most attractive across the board.

The significance of this proves one thing: This so-called Asian self-hate, though present in some Westernized Asians, is statistically a myth. Asians are actually the group that find other Asians most commonly attractive.

Regardless of what race the participants were, one common judgment was made: Asians are least attractive. While Caucasians being attributed as "most attractive" can be reasoned out with white hegemony, how do you explain the fact that the Asians were statistically rated as least attractive across all the sampled races by every single one of them?

And of course, how is it that the other non-white races still came up on top of Asians in physical attractiveness? What, can you blame it then on non-white-non-Asian hegemony? Don't think that exists.

Once again, yet another basis of proof for my arguments.

 

[dav242]

i find it interesting that this argument has been mainly between two very articulate and obviously intelligent asians in vancouver - representing two schools of thought on this issue.

but after looking through this thread, i'm with chimere on this one.

blackajah - your arguments are well reasoned and - obviously - backed by some research and hard data (but, as we all know, there's always room for significant bias in social science research).

my big question is - what's the purpose of accepting that as asians we're uglier and more disgusting than whites, on average?

just to justify your preference for white men?

you can present me with as much hard evidence that asians are patently inferior in terms of attractiveness to every other goddamn race on this planet - and i'll accept the data, as long as the methods are valid, etc.

but i would never use that data to determine who i find attractive in reality. my dick is usually the best indicator for that.

and in my 20+ years of being in the gay scene, i've found alot of other asian guys attractive. have they been as attractive as some other white guys i've seen? on the whole - no, not necessarily.

but some of these guys are still fucking hot, and it's - quite frankly - encouraging to see because it reminds me that - hey, there are some hotties among us.

blackajah - i can accept your argument, but the biggest problem i have with your argument is its implications:

namely, that because all asians have been proven to be unattractive, it's OK for us to ignore other asian guys who approach us because - according to the data - they're most likely going to be unattractive.

whether or not you realize it, you're essentially giving the OK for race-based hate and discrimination.

i'm not saying you're self-hating in any way because - quite frankly - that issue is moot.

and it's always annoying to see arguments reduced to scathing ad hominems. although, yes, at the same time, who we are often shapes our beliefs and preferences so i get that this argument would come to that level.

in the end, however, reconsider the implications of what you're telling us.

if you want us to be reminded of all the data and all the reasons that asians are uglier and unattractive, you send a message to all the other gay asians on these boards - who may be in the process of coming out and may still uncomfortable with who they are - that they are scum of the gay dating pool.

yes, that might be true. yes, you may be right.
and yes, you may have been simply using that data to justify the asian myopic preference of white men.

but, there's something to be said about giving other gay asians the confidence and the boost that hey - on the whole - we still have something to offer other guys.

and that hey - there are hot asians out there that are as jack-off-worthy and - therefore - as desirable as the corbinfisher/Sean Cody/fratmen guys.

besides, if it were true that asians were as unattractive as these studies suggest, then it logically follows that white men wouldn't be attracted to asian guys either.

i mean, if we're disgusting, in-bred nerds and white guys are pure adonises, then why would a white guy even bother dating an asian???

hence, the catch 22 that the OP seems to have found himself in.

i'm not dogging your preference for white men - (i too find white men attractive - but i also find alot of asian guys attractive), but i take issue with your need to somehow justify that preference using evidence that shows that asians are, on the whole, unattractive.

instead of finding reasons to remind us that we may be the least attractive race possible, i'd rather someone remind us of reasons that our race may be attractive to others. hell, i'd rather that someone posted photos of some hot asians who rival the fratmen/Sean Cody/corbinfisher ideal.

bottom line, blackajah - you present some great facts, a compelling case. and if i were some sort of judge, sure, i'd say you'd have the edge in the argument, with the evidence and research you've presented.

but as a gay asian, i'd never subscribe to those beliefs - regardless of how valid they are - because i'd never get anywhere if i kept on thinking that i was the ugliest person on this planet, by virtue of my race alone.

as cliche as it sounds, in the dating world, confidence in key.

of course, in the gay scene, a hot body, cute face, bubble butt and other such shallow things are also important.

but if you've got all those things but are hung up on the fact that you're part of the most disgusting race on earth, then you really don't stand a chance of bagging yourself a white guy.

and blackajah - i'm sure you've had good success with white men, so that last comment was primarily for all the other newbie gay asians out there who may be reading this thread, kicking themselves in the ass just for being who they are - gay and part of the most unattractive race on the planet, according to your measures.

 

[dav242]

and if you're looking for other (and potentially white) guys on these boards who can get it up for asian men OR if you want an idea of what some attractive asian guys look like, this is a good place to start:

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169152

 

[dav242]

also - for all you asians who exclusively date whites - are you telling me that this guy doesn't turn you on at all?

maybe he doesn't count as much because he's half-asian, but does that mean you can only get a semi-hard-on (50%) for him?

he's an old corbinfisher boy, too, which is nice because it's proof that - yes, even us nasty asians (or half asians) can be corbinfisher worthy.

he may be one of the many exceptions to the rule and he's also half-asian, but still - let's take some pride in what our race may have to offer

 

[youngnihilist]

not denying that asians TEND to be of the smaller structure etc etc

HOWEVER, who is to say that is less attractive???

many people are more attracted to a thin smooth asian than a buff hairy white guy. its all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[chimere]

Regardless of what race the participants were, one common judgment was made: Asians are least attractive. While Caucasians being attributed as "most attractive" can be reasoned out with white hegemony, how do you explain the fact that the Asians were statistically rated as least attractive across all the sampled races by every single one of them?

And of course, how is it that the other non-white races still came up on top of Asians in physical attractiveness? What, can you blame it then on non-white-non-Asian hegemony? Don't think that exists.

Once again, yet another basis of proof for my arguments.

Do you know what hegemony means? Have you even taken a sociology course? Essentially, this is an issue of semiotics of "ideal" aesthetics - meaning "what is beautiful" is taken to be, characteristics of Caucasian features. Hegemony means subjugation and hierarchy - and thus, the desirability of Caucasian traits over traits of other races.

So, you will see white men being on top, followed by latinos, middle easterners, and east indians. At the bottom are blacks and asians, who do not share the "Caucasian" traits typical of european whites. Physical anthropology meets cultural hegemony.

It's not proof for your argument at all, it's proof that you have been socialized, like so many Asians that have grown up in the West, to see what is "beautiful" as "white features".

And, since you seem to be getting the wrong impression, my argument is that Asians are inherently -physically- less attractive, on a distributed statistical basis, compared to Caucasians. Asians, as an entire -race-, are NOT inferior. Asians have certain traits that are superior to other races, but these traits are more cultural than genetic.

"Cultural" traits over "genetic" traits? Explain, because you seem to be on the cutting edge of sociobiology with your amateur social science.

Not all races are equal in every manner. Just as Kenyans are better at track and field than anyone else, and just as blacks tend to be better at given sports like basketball.

This is fucking laughable. Anthropologists refer to 'populations', no such thing as 'race'.

There is nothing that says black people are better at track and field than anybody else. West Africans (Kenyans) may be good at long distance sprints, but East Africans and Southern Africans are not. Yet in your racial structure, they are all "black", with the same "cultural and genetic traits". You have no clue what you're talking about, and I suggest you take some physical anthropology courses if you want to fully understand what your own argument is - because it's laughable.

 

[chimere]

I just realize, chimere, that looking back and finding a post might be too difficult for you. So here:

Some reasons why Asian men are physically less attractive, on a statistical frequency basis:

- The all-too-common girly-asian-haircut trend
- Genetic tendency for asian men to be slightly shorter and skinnier, with significantly less musculature
- Cultural emphasis on books/brains over body: ie. "focus on your studies, not sports"

Well you're completely wrong and need to reconsider your amateur anthropology, because:

- "girly-asian-haircut trend": it's a cultural fad, and has no correlation with beauty for races because it's limited to cultural contexts. these haircuts may be "girly" here in the West, but may be desirable in the East. You are making an ethnocentric value judgment.

mullets from the 1960's aren't "sexy" either. it's about context, and you're trying to make a sweeping generalization that all Asian men are ugly because all Asian men have girly haircuts. Guess what, they all don't have girly haircuts, and to discriminate against Asians because of cultural trends on the other side of the ocean and recent emigres is completely illegitimate.

- genetic tendency for asian men to be skinnier or shorter and less muscled: Here again you're trying to bring in physical anthropology to justify your racism. Asian men may be skinnier shorter and less muscled, but even anthropologists are unsure whether the degrees of it is due to nutrition or genetics. Also, it only implicates the further notion that you are arguing from a Western-centric viewpoint and ethnocentrism that men who are skinnier, shorter, or not chiseled muscle daddies are undesirable.
Just because you are socialized into Western culture where there are racial structures that value certain attributes does not make it correct. You're trying to justify racist views of differences by pointing out the differences - it's circular logic. Not to mention the tendency for blacks to also be buffer, larger, and more muscular - but not being the apex of masculine idealism. Your racist tastes go far beyond musculature.

- cultural emphasis on books/brains over body: I don't know about you, but you're completely clueless on this matter. All societies, by and far, have valued intelligence and academics for their children. Your entire argument is a stereotype of Asians being nerds and only interested in schoolwork and obviously constructed by Western media. And your stereotype holds little truth, because Western Caucasians hold the same values of school and intelligence (especially since the Baby Boomers). This isn't even an argument, it's a pathetic, skewed, incorrect "notion".

And to bullet point the further reasoning for you...

- Another reason why asian men tend to be less attractive, I feel, is because of millenia of breeding based on societal status/wealth rather than physical characteristics. In fact, this is still common up until today

- This results in the non-promotion of attractive physical traits over generations of breeding, therefore these traits do not become common/widespread - and the result? The fraction of asian men who are physically attractive being significantly less.

- Physical characteristics from millenia of "breeding": you are so laughably wrong. have you not read up on European history? Britain has had a society based on class (and your so called "breeding") for centuries. Yet I bet you would fall for these British men, who somehow had your desirable "physical characteristics" yet have a society that has "bred" more on societal status and wealth than even the Chinese did.

Your entire argument is sick, wrong, and racist. You somehow think that Asians are naturally ugly because of history, when the history does not favour your argument. If Asians are naturally ugly because of class and wealth inbreeding, then the entire continent of Europe since the feudal times should be aesthetically disgusting.

Yet for you, these Caucasians aren't. Sorry, but you're a racist, plain and simple, and trying to justify racism by somehow arguing that Asians are genetically inferior is not going to fool anybody.

 

[chimere]

So I suppose theblackajah with his brilliant "theories" (which is a completely stretch, sorry science), those men in Asia must be having a hard time, with all their women "settling" for native Asians instead of searching out every white man they can get. After all, Asians are statistically and genetically more ugly than white men.

Meaning China has had 6,000 years of bathing in their own ugliness, needing white men to come in, fuck their women, and show them what real beauty is!

 

[chimere]

For those interested in actual empirical data and studies:

Mok, Teresa Ann (2000) Attractiveness in Asian faces: Effects of race, gender, and ethnic identity. Ph.D. dissertation, Purdue University, United States -- Indiana. Retrieved March 15, 2008, from ProQuest Digital Dissertations database. (Publication No. AAT 3017840).

The study found that out of 4 races rating the attractiveness of males of those 4 races, ALL 4 races rated Asians as least attractive. In fact, Asians were the ones that rated other Asians as being most attractive. Caucasians were rated most attractive across the board.

The significance of this proves one thing: This so-called Asian self-hate, though present in some Westernized Asians, is statistically a myth. Asians are actually the group that find other Asians most commonly attractive.

I don't think you understand what you're reading.

First of all, you obviously are amateur at this. No one links to PhD dissertations to back up an argument.

Secondly, the dissertation rated only the attractiveness of Asian faces. It did not rate 4 races. Did you even read the study?

"Undergraduates (N = 90; 60 Asian American; 30 White American) at midwestern universities completed written ratings of their perceptions of the attractiveness of 24 Asian faces (12 male, 12 female). A majority of participants made ratings based on their own personal preferences; a subset of Asian American participants made ratings based on their beliefs of how Whites would rate photographs. All participants answered questions to measure their ethnic identity."

Sample size is pretty weak, considering it's a social psychology study and that they're all undergraduate students.

In addition, this does not help your argument because all participants were American, meaning they are socialized in Western media and already, like you, subscribe to discourses whereby "Caucasian features" are desirable and attractive. It is therefore, unsurprising that those who disagreed and found Asians attractive were Asians themselves - because not all have been "brainwashed" into this mentality like you, theblackajah.

Lastly, it does not disprove the notion of self-hate among Asians like you. That self-hate is clearly prevalent as Asian-Americans are socialized by Western media that portrays them as unattractive. And if Asian-Americans can't see themselves as attractive, and see the white-boy-next-door as attractive into comparison, that is self-hate if they never want to date an Asian man because they don't see them as attractive. Even if it is not their fault.

PS: Statistics had nothing to do with this, so you saying "statistically a myth" is incorrect because you never had statistical data to justify your argument anyways.

 

[theblackajah]

- "girly-asian-haircut trend": it's a cultural fad, and has no correlation with beauty for races because it's limited to cultural contexts. these haircuts may be "girly" here in the West, but may be desirable in the East. You are making an ethnocentric value judgment.

That's like arguing that, hey, wearing a bra may be effeminate here in the West, but perhaps it's hot in the East! The structure of this haircut, depending on the type, is inherently effeminate in nature because of its length and feathery look. Objectively speaking though, I must concede that my dislike of this haircut could be biased - I left Asia right when this trend was starting, so I can't accurately gauge how attractive it is deemed back there.

- genetic tendency for asian men to be skinnier or shorter and less muscled: Here again you're trying to bring in physical anthropology to justify your racism. Asian men may be skinnier shorter and less muscled, but even anthropologists are unsure whether the degrees of it is due to nutrition or genetics. Also, it only implicates the further notion that you are arguing from a Western-centric viewpoint and ethnocentrism that men who are skinnier, shorter, or not chiseled muscle daddies are undesirable.
Just because you are socialized into Western culture where there are racial structures that value certain attributes does not make it correct. You're trying to justify racist views of differences by pointing out the differences - it's circular logic. Not to mention the tendency for blacks to also be buffer, larger, and more muscular - but not being the apex of masculine idealism. Your racist tastes go far beyond musculature.

In this point, I must yield to you. You are correct in that my argument is inherently biased because it is based on the notion that muscled, tall men are attractive. After all, back in the ancient days of China, fat Asian men were considered hot, because it was a display of status and wealth. Therefore, the basis of these preferred traits is contextual. However, it cannot be proven that muscled, tall men have become the standard because of media portrayal of tall, muscled white men. After all, these traits were long preferred by many cultures far before mass media was invented. So - in the context of today's standard, possibly because of the influence of mass media (but unprovable), these traits are most certainly preferred as a standard in most cultures.

- cultural emphasis on books/brains over body: I don't know about you, but you're completely clueless on this matter. All societies, by and far, have valued intelligence and academics for their children. Your entire argument is a stereotype of Asians being nerds and only interested in schoolwork and obviously constructed by Western media. And your stereotype holds little truth, because Western Caucasians hold the same values of school and intelligence (especially since the Baby Boomers). This isn't even an argument, it's a pathetic, skewed, incorrect "notion".

- First off, I've spoken to my numerous Asian friends on this matter (and obviously, I actually come from an Asian country and have grown up surrounded by only Asians). There is most certainly a significant difference in what Asian cultures prioritize and how heavily Asian parents tend to restrict their children to academic pursuits. Of course societies by far and large value intelligence - who doesn't? Asian cultures just tend to value it significantly more, with increased pressure on offspring. Don't believe me? Look up the research that has been done into it. Ask your Asian friends, ask your white friends to join the discussion. See, compare.

- Physical characteristics from millenia of "breeding": you are so laughably wrong. have you not read up on European history? Britain has had a society based on class (and your so called "breeding") for centuries. Yet I bet you would fall for these British men, who somehow had your desirable "physical characteristics" yet have a society that has "bred" more on societal status and wealth than even the Chinese did.

Millenia - ie. thousands of years. China dates that far back - and the culture has emphasized marrying for wealth and status. Now, go back several THOUSAND years in European history (Whoops, modern Britain isn't even there yet!), and analyze the cultures there. Did all peoples in those cultures, regardless of class, emphasize marrying for wealth and status? Or was this limited to those in the nobility? So, perhaps YOU should go back and read YOUR history. China precedes Britain by a couple thousand years. Don't compare a breeding structure of only a few hundred years to that of a few thousand. It makes a significant evolutionary difference.

Your entire argument is sick, wrong, and racist. You somehow think that Asians are naturally ugly because of history, when the history does not favour your argument. If Asians are naturally ugly because of class and wealth inbreeding, then the entire continent of Europe since the feudal times should be aesthetically disgusting.

Once again, you seem to think that by calling me racist, it will somehow make it true and thus render all my arguments inherently racist and deplorable. Of course not. Secondly, class and wealth "inbreeding" (as you seem to enjoy calling it) was limited to individual class sections, notably the nobility - and this does lead to evolutionary problems and genetic deficiencies, such as genetic diseases and deformities in the nobility. The rest of the population, however, was not constrained to this practice.

I'm glad you've finally put forward your own arguments - it is certainly appreciated. However, you insult your own intelligence at times by liberally peppering your points with petty insults. It just goes to show, you're right on one thing: people can certainly be ugly on the inside too.

And by the way: just because you've taken a course here and there, and know how to use fancy terminology, doesn't make you any more credible. Unless you actually have a related degree, or education beyond that. The fact that you try to wave it around as some sort of trump credential only goes to show how desperate you are to prove yourself right and impose your sense of Asian pride and hate for Caucasians and their cultural dominance on the rest of us.

Keep up the intelligent replies - and try to match it with intelligent behaviour.

 

[theblackajah]

i find it interesting that this argument has been mainly between two very articulate and obviously intelligent asians in vancouver - representing two schools of thought on this issue.

but after looking through this thread, i'm with chimere on this one.

blackajah - your arguments are well reasoned and - obviously - backed by some research and hard data (but, as we all know, there's always room for significant bias in social science research).

my big question is - what's the purpose of accepting that as asians we're uglier and more disgusting than whites, on average?

just to justify your preference for white men?

you can present me with as much hard evidence that asians are patently inferior in terms of attractiveness to every other goddamn race on this planet - and i'll accept the data, as long as the methods are valid, etc.

but i would never use that data to determine who i find attractive in reality. my dick is usually the best indicator for that.

and in my 20+ years of being in the gay scene, i've found alot of other asian guys attractive. have they been as attractive as some other white guys i've seen? on the whole - no, not necessarily.

but some of these guys are still fucking hot, and it's - quite frankly - encouraging to see because it reminds me that - hey, there are some hotties among us.

blackajah - i can accept your argument, but the biggest problem i have with your argument is its implications:

namely, that because all asians have been proven to be unattractive, it's OK for us to ignore other asian guys who approach us because - according to the data - they're most likely going to be unattractive.

whether or not you realize it, you're essentially giving the OK for race-based hate and discrimination.

i'm not saying you're self-hating in any way because - quite frankly - that issue is moot.

and it's always annoying to see arguments reduced to scathing ad hominems. although, yes, at the same time, who we are often shapes our beliefs and preferences so i get that this argument would come to that level.

in the end, however, reconsider the implications of what you're telling us.

if you want us to be reminded of all the data and all the reasons that asians are uglier and unattractive, you send a message to all the other gay asians on these boards - who may be in the process of coming out and may still uncomfortable with who they are - that they are scum of the gay dating pool.

yes, that might be true. yes, you may be right.
and yes, you may have been simply using that data to justify the asian myopic preference of white men.

but, there's something to be said about giving other gay asians the confidence and the boost that hey - on the whole - we still have something to offer other guys.

and that hey - there are hot asians out there that are as jack-off-worthy and - therefore - as desirable as the corbinfisher/seancody/fratmen guys.

besides, if it were true that asians were as unattractive as these studies suggest, then it logically follows that white men wouldn't be attracted to asian guys either.

i mean, if we're disgusting, in-bred nerds and white guys are pure adonises, then why would a white guy even bother dating an asian???

hence, the catch 22 that the OP seems to have found himself in.

i'm not dogging your preference for white men - (i too find white men attractive - but i also find alot of asian guys attractive), but i take issue with your need to somehow justify that preference using evidence that shows that asians are, on the whole, unattractive.

instead of finding reasons to remind us that we may be the least attractive race possible, i'd rather someone remind us of reasons that our race may be attractive to others. hell, i'd rather that someone posted photos of some hot asians who rival the fratmen/seancody/corbinfisher ideal.

bottom line, blackajah - you present some great facts, a compelling case. and if i were some sort of judge, sure, i'd say you'd have the edge in the argument, with the evidence and research you've presented.

but as a gay asian, i'd never subscribe to those beliefs - regardless of how valid they are - because i'd never get anywhere if i kept on thinking that i was the ugliest person on this planet, by virtue of my race alone.

as cliche as it sounds, in the dating world, confidence in key.

of course, in the gay scene, a hot body, cute face, bubble butt and other such shallow things are also important.

but if you've got all those things but are hung up on the fact that you're part of the most disgusting race on earth, then you really don't stand a chance of bagging yourself a white guy.

and blackajah - i'm sure you've had good success with white men, so that last comment was primarily for all the other newbie gay asians out there who may be reading this thread, kicking themselves in the ass just for being who they are - gay and part of the most unattractive race on the planet, according to your measures.

You're very right on certain issues, but I think you may have misunderstood my intent. Most certainly, there ARE hot Asians out there! I encourage everyone to equally consider each race. My intent is not to put Asians down as the bottom of the barrel. I'm simply trying to explain why most people tend to prefer other races over Asians, beyond the all-but-too-commonly-accepted explanation of "brainwashing" and "whites on pedestals".

In a way, I'm simply trying to change the way people think. Perhaps the Earth ISN'T flat, nay?

Thank you for your courteous reply though, it's very refreshing. I most certainly apologize to any Asians out there who would think less of themselves because of my argument: that's not what I meant to do. In fact, I hope that they take my points, see the challenges they face, and use it as motivation to make themselves better people, to improve, to bring out the best in themselves.

 

[tallguy297]

Uh guys....

Can we drag this thread back on topic please?

While this is a fascinating debate, statistical analysis and point scoring doesn't quite help the op answer questions about how he feels. This thread is not a debate.

This topic will always come down to personal choice and preference. There is nothing to be served by clogging up a thread with argument and counter argument over who is more right or wrong.

Your personal expereinces and opinions alone are the most valuable contributions you can make in this forum... thats what matter most. Its time to leave this argument at the door and move on to sharing those things with the op.



Thanks guys!

TG

 

[theblackajah]

I don't think you understand what you're reading.

First of all, you obviously are amateur at this. No one links to PhD dissertations to back up an argument.

Secondly, the dissertation rated only the attractiveness of Asian faces. It did not rate 4 races. Did you even read the study?

"Undergraduates (N = 90; 60 Asian American; 30 White American) at midwestern universities completed written ratings of their perceptions of the attractiveness of 24 Asian faces (12 male, 12 female). A majority of participants made ratings based on their own personal preferences; a subset of Asian American participants made ratings based on their beliefs of how Whites would rate photographs. All participants answered questions to measure their ethnic identity."

Sample size is pretty weak, considering it's a social psychology study and that they're all undergraduate students.

In addition, this does not help your argument because all participants were American, meaning they are socialized in Western media and already, like you, subscribe to discourses whereby "Caucasian features" are desirable and attractive. It is therefore, unsurprising that those who disagreed and found Asians attractive were Asians themselves - because not all have been "brainwashed" into this mentality like you, theblackajah.

Lastly, it does not disprove the notion of self-hate among Asians like you. That self-hate is clearly prevalent as Asian-Americans are socialized by Western media that portrays them as unattractive. And if Asian-Americans can't see themselves as attractive, and see the white-boy-next-door as attractive into comparison, that is self-hate if they never want to date an Asian man because they don't see them as attractive. Even if it is not their fault.

PS: Statistics had nothing to do with this, so you saying "statistically a myth" is incorrect because you never had statistical data to justify your argument anyways.

Oh, you're right, I'm quite an amateur on forum arguments. I shouldn't have posted an actual study. I should just yell at the poster, call them racist, and say "you're wrong" to prove my point. Chimere, your attempts at discrediting me by putting yourself on a pedestal as some sort of "wizkid" at debate, reasoning, research and all things anthopological is getting tired. It's the age old trick of shifting the argument to the person, rather than the topic on debate itself - watch coverage of the run-up to the 2008 US elections and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Secondly, before you say I'm an amateur and don't understand what I'm reading, or that I haven't read it... perhaps YOU should read the whole thing. Do a little SEARCH in the document: try 4 races. You should find the appropriate section. Read the WHOLE thing first if you're going to accuse others of not doing so

As for the reality of self-hating Asians: Read my post. I said that some do exist, but in general, from the sampling group (once again, read the ENTIRE thing), Asians were the ones that found Asians most attractive. Hrmmm... perhaps not all Asians hate themselves... what a revelation! Careful not to get an aneurysm there.

Lastly, saying that the entire sampling group has been brainwashed is an assumption - prove it first, then your argument will be valid. Beyond that, it seems that, to you, everyone and anyone living in North America is nothing but a victim of mass media and white supremacy. We might as well file a class action law suit, from the way you put things.