"Illegal Immigration" is paranoia-speak for "Mexican-hating"

[Legend500]

Chimere, unjust laws in America are eventually overturned, not just ignored. ;-)

Actually, unjust laws are usually ignored (non-abortion or sodomy) and then eventually overturned (Roe v. Wade, Lawrence v. Texas).

 

[wanderer]

the laws are written for a reason, and do have meaning. they are there because lawmakers and politicians, who were voted in by the majority, put them there.

if they "need" to be overturned, then that is their fate, but because its always the very loud minority that speaks out on issues, while the silent majority listens and goes about their day, it seems like "everyone" is against such a law, when in fact, everyone is for the law for a myriad of reasons.

i guess my own personal frustration in this entire theme/subject is the fact that people from other countries are trying to influence the immigration laws of this country, trying to say that we americans are wrong and racist because we dont want to open the flood gates and let everyone and their brothers/sisters in.

on the statue of liberty it says that phrase about the "bring me your poor tired masses" or something to that effect, and with that there were a certain set of society rules that were understood when becoming an American. i think it was pledging your allegiance to this country, and also assimilating into the culture.

i am a huge fan of immigration because it has brought so many influences into this natation, and it wouldnt be as great without it. immigrants, and children of immigrants (myself included) assimilated and shared. but going back to my previous paragraph, about the part of assimilation, it seems now that the new influx of immigants is no longer assimilating and sharing, but rather congreting into communities that homogenously represent their own countries, and isolate themselves. does anybody else notice this?

 

[andysayshi]

 

[LarsVenice]

Mexico deports illegals from Guatemala who are poorer than they and probably starving blacks too

how many American Indians are in the Mexican congress?

I've seen Guatemalans deported when I was traveling in Guatemala and Chiapas. There seems to be a double standard here - it's okay for Mexican to immigrate illegally to the U.S., but not okay for Guatemalans to enter Mexico. Either you respect all borders or you respect none.

Mexico had an Indian president, Porfirio Díaz, who was largely Mixtec, from Oaxaca. I'm sure many representatives in the Mexican congress are from native tribes or at least mixed.

 

[kallipolis]

The standard is not established by Mexico but by those who presume to be more civilised and advanced, than Mexico.

I presume that you can recognise yourself?

 

[Kurn]

A lot of the people in question are not arguing at all. They're just trying to exist.



good grief people!

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't care who comes across the border illegally, I only owe them one thing: a warning to turn back, and if they don't, a bullet between the eyes.
When a mass of people enter a country illegally to take its wealth and return it to their own country, that's called invasion. The appropriate response to invasion is to repel it with all available force.

Paranoia? If I'm paranoid, it's about one thing: millions of people entering the country who have no idea what it's about... and producing children who don't know, either. The next generation will be voting, with the belief that what c=voting is for is getting things you want. Too many Americans believe that already, and it's destroying America. Illegal immigration will only make it worse.

China had a wall for centuries, but they were still invaded when the Ming was overthrown by the Manchu Qing dynasty.

Building a wall may be expensive, but I don't think it would do much in the parts where the wall can be overcome.

The Great Wall wasn't intended to keep people out, it was meant to (1) provide a warning system, so messengers could get to where the armies were and alert them, and (2) keep the invaders from escaping, by having those armies man the wall and keep anyone from crossing it.
The Chinese had the same problem we would with a wall, and that's not the expense of building, but of manning it.

Do you think the Dutch are proud of buying Manhattan for $24 worth of beads from Indians who had never seen anything so shiny and bright?

What they should really be ashamed of is the fact that the natives didn't conceive of it as buying the land, but buying the right to share it. They had no concept of private property except what you might carry with you.

I'm hardly ignorant.
I'm hardly racist.
I make an effort to see both sides of things even if it isn't in my interest.
Nowhere do I indicate that the Rule of Law is an expression of hate.
Mexicans aren't the only illegal immigrants. I know that. But they should be treated distinctly well, as should Canadians, simply by their proximity and to further good will as a bulwark for our security.

Yes, they should be treated well, meaning the same way as citizens would be: cuffed, jailed, and punished, just like any other felon. It makes no more sense to be nice to them when they have invaded our country than it does to be nice to a burglar who has broken into my house and is busy absconding with my property.

Just deal with Mexico's problems by being better than everyone else involved; not more evil.

I'm not sure I can even make sense of that.

What we need is some law, and enforcement, to make it clear that this country is not open for theft.
First, seal the border, with wall, listening posts, and manpower -- take volunteers, even.
Second, authorize all citizens to make an arrest if they encounter an illegal alien.
Third, confiscate all property of any illegal alien caught, and levy a fine of $5000 plus $2500 for each year the illegal has been in the country.
Fourth, throw the bum out.
Fifth, fine any employer found to have knowingly hired an illegal $50,000 plus the sum of the fine levied on the illegal; additionally, for false Social Security numbers, levy an additional $50,000 fine.
Note: all fines collected are to be applied to paying off national debt held by foreign countries.

On the other side of the issue:
Provide for American companies to hold job fairs in countries from which they would like to hire workers. Any person a company wishes to hire is to be granted a one-year green card, renewable so long as he/she continues to hold a job in the United States; if the person moves from one employer to another, that information is to be submitted to the immigration & naturalization authorities by both the employer and employee. Failure to so inform, on the part of the employer, gets a $50,000 fine; on the part of the employee, a $5,000 fine.
Provide that any immigration slots not taken by other nationalities to whom such are assigned will be granted to guest workers on a seniority basis.
Provide that any immigrant who has worked satisfactorily or better for an American employer for five years, and who has taken and passed an in-depth course in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the rights of a citizen, and basic American history, may apply for citizenship; a limit of 250,000 such to be granted, on the basis of higher income, each year.


I know that to some corporations, a $50k fine wouldn't seem like much. OTOH, there are two companies here where I live which between them were employing 38 illegals, all arrested two years ago in a raid. One had 22 illegals, which makes a $1.1 million fine -- about 20% of the value of the company.
Heh -- in cases where a company could not afford to pay, the fine could come as shares in the company, the shares to go to the Social Security fund....

This was all off the top of my head; I know I posted some better ideas in another thread.

In brief summary, we need to on the one hand come down hard on those invading our country, and those aiding and abetting them, and on the other hand provide a far more open door.

 

[Nishin]

Second, authorize all citizens to make an arrest if they encounter an illegal alien.

Are you serious?????????
After saying something like "I don't care who comes across the border illegally, I only owe them one thing: a warning to turn back, and if they don't, a bullet between the eyes" I really don't think it's a good idea... especially if people with murderous ideas like you expressed are involved...

 

[Kulindahr]

Are you serious?????????
After saying something like "I don't care who comes across the border illegally, I only owe them one thing: a warning to turn back, and if they don't, a bullet between the eyes" I really don't think it's a good idea... especially if people with murderous ideas like you expressed are involved...

Repelling invaders isn't murder.

The Constitution makes a simple provision for "the security of a free state" -- and this is a matter of security. That provision is the militia, which is the people. Employing them to capture illegal aliens wherever and whenever encountered is merely a proper use of the militia.
When the people are acting as the militia, which they would be when making a citizen's arrest of one of these intruders, they are subject to military discipline. That reality ought to be enough to keep any "murderous" types from turning it into vigilante justice; military courts are not as forgiving as civilian.

 

[Nishin]

The US constitution advocates murdering unarmed people????????????????????????
Do you even realize what you're implying in your attempt to justify your living target shooting fantasies??

 

[Kurn]

It is not rational, Christian, patriotic, American or right to advocate killing undocumented migrants.
Perhaps it was more than 150 years ago, in some sense, that is, when people were more ignorant but not nowadays.
These are not sentiments worthy of a grown man.

 

[Kulindahr]

The US constitution advocates murdering unarmed people????????????????????????
Do you even realize what you're implying in your attempt to justify your living target shooting fantasies??

Interesting:

You fabricate an accusation in order to make an unfounded attack.

 

[Kulindahr]

It is not rational, Christian, patriotic, American or right to advocate killing undocumented migrants.
Perhaps it was more than 150 years ago, in some sense, that is, when people were more ignorant but not nowadays.
These are not sentiments worthy of a grown man.

Well, if people ever come to your dwelling, break in, take your food and eat it, raid your medicine cabinet, and ship your valuables off to their friends, you'd better not mount any kind of defense -- if you want to be consistent, that is.

A grown man defends what is his, and that includes his country. If, after being warned, they don't turn back at the border, they must be counted invaders and repelled with force -- lethal, if they persist.
Because they're not "undocumented migrants", they're invaders.

 

[Nishin]

Interesting:
You fabricate an accusation in order to make an unfounded attack.

I think everyone here is literate enough to read your very words and your pseudo justifications for them.

Now regarding your claim of private property over the USA soil and institutions, can you produce legal documents expliciting your statment of ownership?

 

[kallipolis]

Can one of our board friends produce evidence that the indigenous peoples of North American issued "green cards" to the Pilgrim Fathers, on their arrival at Plymouth Rock?

 

[kallipolis]

Logic presumes on the thought that reason enough should encourage us to focus on the thought that Mexican illegal immigration into the United States, is the topic under discussion.

You are always free to create another thread that discusses the influence of the Spanish conquest, on other parts of The Americas.

Your attempt to divert attention from the central issue does encourage me to suppose that you choose to beg the question being addressed. Did the Pilgrim Father's receive "green cards" from the indigenous peoples of North America, or did they set the example now being observed by those Mexicans who choose to imitate the example set by the early British settlers into what has become the United States?

 

[kallipolis]

Johan,

Starting with the Pilgrim Fathers the prosperity of the United States has relied upon waves upon waves of immigrants legal and illegal, in order to feed the American economy into becoming the largest and most efficient economic system on the planet.

To ignore the precedent created by the Pilgrim Fathers is to blind our self to the fact that the American black economy is a cost reducing benefit to the whole American economy.

To imagine that fruitless attempts to enforce immigration laws that were not enforced for over a century is going to stop or restrain illegal immigration from Latin America, is to ignore the fact that where there is a market for cheap immigrant labour, the immigrants legal or otherwise will always imitate the precedent set by the Pilgrim Fathers, when they turned up their noses at the indigenous North American peoples and did as they saw fit. The illegal Mexican immigrants are following a fine precedent that works to the benefit of the American economy.

 

[Kulindahr]

I think everyone here is literate enough to read your very words and your pseudo justifications for them.

Now regarding your claim of private property over the USA soil and institutions, can you produce legal documents expliciting your statment of ownership?

Everyone but you, you mean -- your words were a fabricated accusation, based on nothing I've said.

Um, for the second one, I'd have to refer you to the Constitution. Or are you saying that the United States does not own its own territory?

 

[wanderer]

Can one of our board friends produce evidence that the indigenous peoples of North American issued "green cards" to the Pilgrim Fathers, on their arrival at Plymouth Rock?

actually the illegal imigrants in Jamestown were all murdered and they were never heard from again.

 

[kallipolis]

Who set that precedent? The original Americans, or those whom we now have come to regard as Americans?