"I'm Not A Homophobe! I Just Don't Believe In Gay Marriage"

[JasunStrikesBack]

WHY WOULD ANY SECULAR GAY MAN WANT TO EMULATE THIS LIFESTYLE?

Why would straight people want that? Doesn't matter.. they do.. and they should have that option.

 

[boiseboy]

You're really mature, read the rest of my arguments before you say anything.

Go through what I've written and tell me what I've said that is "idiotic" because I don't see anything. I can argue my case coherently.
Can you?

Or are you just going to cop out and call me an "insecure homosexual idiot"?

You don't know anything about me. How can you say shit like that? You probably didn't even read anything I wrote.

I read everything. Nothing you've said in this thread has any value and you don't make any good points at all. You are an insecure homosexual. Any gay man who can still think they can be friends with someone who doesn't view you as an equal is insecure.
I understand people with that opinion may be used to being "americas bitch," but thats your own problem.
Thats the only plausible reason that could excuse your blatant ignorance to peoples prejudice on gay marriage.

That is why you are an insecure homosexual. I can tell just by the ignorant things you've said in this thread. Hows the closet looking? Are there holes to breathe?

 

[saymyname]

It's not our fucking job to convince bigots that they don't deserve special rights. I wouldn't be friends with her either.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Diamondskin, one of the things that hasn't really been discussed in this thread is why your friend believes as she does. Did she ever explain her position? I believe you characterized her as 'passionate' but didn't go into more detail.

The reason I'm curious is because I struggle with the idea that a racist is a racist, a homophobe is a homophobe. Some people are biased out of ignorance or stupidity, a lack of reflection, a sort of habitual kneejerk reflex nurtured, in all likelihood by an abundance of television or church. Some unfortunate people have little exposure to diverse populations and regurgitate stereotypes out of simpleness. Maybe I'm too charitable but I tend to believe the majority of bias is explained this way.

On the other hand there are the real bigots. In the extreme, skinheads or nazis might reflect upon, organize and express their prejudice as a full blown ideology. These are folks who've really thought through their beliefs and openly express malice, hatred or phobia.

So, given your friend's position, how would your characterize her?

Has she thought it through? Is her prejudice ignorant on the one hand or fully malicious on the other?

Maybe to you it makes no difference. I can appreciate that. I've felt very conflicted by bias borne out of innocence in the past. At times, I've engaged the poor saps, and other times I've simply told them to fuck off.

 

[DiamondSkin]

^ you're comparing racism to not just homophobia, but to people who don't believe in gay marriage.

I'm actually comparing those who oppose interracial marriage to those who who oppose gay marriage.

Those against interracial marriage are clearly racist. But those against gay marriage aren't necessarily racist and that's fine and dandy to you?

Please.

There are gay people that don't believe in gay marriage. What, are they homophobic towards themselves?

There many straight people who don't believe in marriage too. They're not heterophobic to themselves.

If a gay person doesn't believe in gay marriage, that's his business. Some people think marriage is outdated, outmoded, etc.

If a gay person opposes gay marriage and thinks no other gay person in America should marry someone of their same sex than yes, he's a homophobe.

He would suffer from internal homophobia.

Like you.

What you are trying to do is establish your claim that people who are opposed to gay marriage, are homophobes. The only substantial evidence you provide is racial prejudice. This is a cop out.

No, it's a substantive claim which you failed time and again to shoot down.

I'm using interracial marriage as an parallel example and you have failed to argue why a person against interracial marriage is racist yet a person against gay marriage isn't a homophobe.

I'm arguing that you can't automatically label someone as a homophobe just because they don't agree with your opinion of how marriage should be. That is a form of prejudice in itself.

So I can't label someone as a racist if they're against interracial marriage.

Wouldn't my 'opinion' of marriage that it should be open to all races be a form a prejudice against those who disagree?

 

[DiamondSkin]

I don't know why you're arguing with this guy. He's 'racist' against dogs, for crying out loud, and he's offended when people delete him as a Facebook friend.

He's self-contradictory and he does the same things to others which he condemns other people of doing to him.

I do hope you're being facetious.

If not, a joke thread about dogs and vent thread about Facebook doesn't diminish my argument nor does it help yours.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Well I may as well throw my opinion in......

DiamondSkin, there are two scenarios that have been COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN in this thread......

1. What if someone is fully supportive of full gay rights, but prefers the term 'civil partnership' or a similar term to describe what they would like?

Actually, I have attempted to extend an olive branch with her today.

I asked why she was opposed to gay marriage and how she I thought I felt about it.

She said she was against gay marriage because it was meant to be for a man and woman. If gays get married, than men will marry dogs, children, plants, etc.

I calmly (barely) gave her my argument why that wouldn't happen and why gay marriage should be legalized.

She said she understood but and I quote, "A gay relationship isn't as real as a relationship between a man and a woman."

I asked her to elaborate.

She said and I quote, "Gays don't really have real relationships. It's just sex. There's not really any love. It's not the same as me and boyfriend. We love each other."

I asked for further elaboration.

She said, "I think it's not good for children. And I think gay people can change if they want to. Marriage is about kids and love. Gays can't do that."

And that's where the conversation ended.

My friendship with her is over, over.

And those on this thread who thought I should still be friends with her...well I may get banned for such language.

 

[DiamondSkin]

^Um, how am I racist towards dogs. how do i "do the same things to others which he condemns other people of doing to him."

Obama hates cats. That is all.

Anyways. my point isn't that you guys are all wrong, and that I love making friends with people who don't support gay marriage. [/B]

But clearly you don't mind having them. Do they pat you on the head like a dog and call you a good boy when they take you out for a walk?

I'm just saying don't be so quick to alienate people who disagree with you. Why should there be any bad impression in that?[/B]

I'm quick to stop being friends with someone who thinks less of me. Who thinks I'm less of a person.

And I was right. Through further interrogation, my former friend said she thought that gay love wasn't as good as straight love and gay marriage will be bad for kids.

In other words, I'm not on her level.

Fuck her.

You can be friends with since you clearly don't mind such homophobia. I'll give you her number.

Seriously, you want to call people homophobes the split second you hear any slight indication of it, that's not going to solve any problems.

Being against a fundamental, equal right is not a 'slight' case of homophobia by any means.

I wonder?

If you're ever gay bashed, would that just be a minor disagreement to you?

I'll bet.

OH you don't support Gay Marriage, YOU MUST BE A GAY HATER. I'M NOT GOING TO TALK TO YOU NOW EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN FRIENDS WITH YOU FOR 4 YEARS.

OH you don't support interracial Marriage, YOU MUST BE A RACIST I'M NOT GOING TO TALK TO YOU NOW EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN FRIENDS WITH YOU FOR 4 YEARS.

See what I did there? Still haven't found a counter.

I've been personally attacked by cowards who can't construct a differing opinion/argument. All just for disagreeing and saying why.

Well, why aren't you friends with them?

Or Fred Phelps for that matter?

 

[DonQuixote]

Some very nice people have deep religious convictions, and part of their religious upbringing was the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, no other variations need apply.

Do I agree with the stance? Hell no, and I've been fairly vocal about it.

Can I appreciate the religious convictions of these people, even though I feel they are misguided? Yes.

Can I be friends with people who disagree with me on certain topics, yes.
Will I endeavor to tweak their understanding/position on the matter over time - you betcha. As a friend, not merely a casual acquaintance.

Take the high road.

 

[zoltanspawn]

She said she was against gay marriage because it was meant to be for a man and woman. If gays get married, than men will marry dogs, children, plants, etc.

She said she understood but and I quote, "A gay relationship isn't as real as a relationship between a man and a woman."

She said and I quote, "Gays don't really have real relationships. It's just sex. There's not really any love. It's not the same as me and boyfriend. We love each other."

She said, "I think it's not good for children. And I think gay people can change if they want to. Marriage is about kids and love. Gays can't do that."

It's so weird to me that she could say such things to you with a straight face (ha ha.) The sentiments are vile. On the other hand, there seem to be plenty of us who cheerfully endure the abuse. Maybe she's comfortable sharing her halfbaked judgments because she's only encountered complacency in the past.

Repugnant as her "opinions" might be, though, they seem to be pretty simplistic. She isn't really giving supportive reasoning or demonstrating much reflection. She hasn't refined her stupidity all the way into purified phobia. Her ideas sound like something she heard at church, or on talk radio, things she's repeating. In that way she can be challenged to think and change, as it doesn't seem like she's given it all that much thought.

I doubt I'd have the patience for it, myself.

 

[sabot3ur]

Can I appreciate the religious convictions of these people, even though I feel they are misguided? Yes.

why?

whywhywhy

I can't understand supporting mental illness, or deliberate ignorance

 

[DiamondSkin]

Some very nice people have deep religious convictions, and part of their religious upbringing was the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, no other variations need apply.

Religion does not excuse prejudice, discrimination or denial of equal rights.

Christians often use their 'deep religious convictions' to say that homosexuality is a sin.

And it should be punishable by death.

But we should just respect their 'misguided religious convictions' no?

The Inquisition says hi.

 

[DiamondSkin]

I agree with you in regards to gay marriage but I disagree with you about cutting your friend out of your life. She may even be a bit of a homophobe, but this isn't how you win Friends, influence People, or even over take your enemies. You do it with your charm, intellect, and shrewdness. You keep your friends close and your enemies even closer. Many parents don't initially accept their gay children, but over time many of them are won over by their gay children who are willing to make the argument with them. I say we need to keep those doors open because that's the only way we'll win the fight in the long run, IMHO.

Okay.

I'm black.

One of my friends is just a 'little bit racist'.

I guess it's okay to shred my self-respect and be friends with the racist, no?

 

[DiamondSkin]

What self-respect are you shredding in this case?

I think you should be willing to make the argument and challenge him on his beliefs as a racist, if you honestly believe he's a racist. If you're standing up for what you believe intellectually and making the argument, what respect have you shredded? I don't get it! Sometimes you got it make it several times with some folks for it just to soak in.

I can assure you that Martin Luther King did exactly that. He was constantly meeting with his political opponents to enlighten them in regards to a racist south. Even though he was assassinated, his argument eventually prevailed.

If she's some kind of Nazi or KKK clansman, yeah sure I'd walk away, but I don't get that feeling in regards to the OP. They were originally friends for some reason!

Believe it or not, some people can be won over by a good argument!

When you cut people out completely in regards to this friend, you're failing to enlighten those very people who tend to be the obstacle to your goal. I see it as standing up for yourself, not running from it!

I'll respect that opinion.

It's refreshing to see a poster who is consistent with his reasoning.

Some other posters think it's okay to be friends with a homophobe and complacent with it.

But a racist who's against interracial marriage? Hell no. That's different...

 

[gdude30]

Okay I think the OP has a fair view.

It's not that "Oh my friend doesn't support gay marriage I'm not gonna be friends with her anymore".

It's the whole "Oh yeah gay people are alright and everything but marriage is a sacred thing between a man and a woman." That is fucking homophobia and bullshit. Someone found out I was gay when I was in another college. They said this to me.

"I don't care that you're gay or anything you're still okay. It's just your choice.". I told him it wasn't a choice. He told me yes it was and I just ended it there.

Basically what they are doing is trying to validate themselves or say a nice thing but their heart and mind say differently. But they make it so obvious.

And it AMAZES me how some people can be so homophobic but when it comes to racial things they don't see the similarities between homophobia and racism. They aren't EXACTLY the same but they have some similar points.

I agree 100% with the OP. One thing I'd like to add is that the person might not be educated or know much. Always consider that. Maybe teach them or try to give them insight instead of writing them off. And letting them know how it's offensive. I'm sure some won't care or see anything wrong with it. But some might not know they are being offensive. Sadly people are raised to believe that marriage is between a man and woman and that gays are people to stay away from.

My views are this. I don't give a fuck about marriage. I understand how it came about but the fucking weddings, the superstitions, and the traditions and the burden that marriage has become is just not worth it. I'm not gonna spend half a million just to have on a piece of paper "I haz a man".

I DON'T NEED THAT. Fuck I'd throw a party if I truly and seriously get together with someone. And I'd invite my friends and family and make it a big celebration. But I'm not going to go with the bullshit wedding traditions and I'm not going to copy what heterosexuals and religion do. I don't need it. And it does nothing for me. However, I understand some people do want the rights and want the experience. And because they do than I will always do my best to "Say yes" to gay marriage if I ever have a chance to vote or voice my opinion.

I think we need to find a new way of doing things or do things the way we want to and in a more creative and better way. But i do understand that it's not fair that straights have so much freedom and so many rights that we don't have. And that's frustrating.

 

[hungrybrownbear]

But clearly you don't mind having them. Do they pat you on the head like a dog and call you a good boy when they take you out for a walk?

Good for you, you know how to use ad hominem attacks. Real persuasive.

I'm wrong, because I understand them and because I don't instanteously alienate people I disagree with. SPLENDID ARGUMENT.

You can be friends with since you clearly don't mind such homophobia. I'll give you her number.

I don't feel its my responsibility to clean up your hormonal mess.
Plus I have enough friends as is. Oh and you're -1.
:]


That's all.

Have a nice night, this thread has wasted enough of my time already!

 

[Adrock-JD]

States issue marriage licenses.

Two consenting gay adult taxpayers want to be issued a marriage license.

State denying that would be unconstitutional.

Some people want to ammend their state's constitution in order to be allowed to discriminate against same-sex partners.

They disguise it as "Defense of Marriage Act" but any idiot can see

it's a "Denial of Rights Ammendment"

 

[Dolmance]

well there's the exception that proves the rule.

I suppose those who bleat, whine and beat their chests the loudest when it comes to prejudicial treatment of their particular "tribe" just have to have some prejudices of their own

 

[bankside]

If someone doesnt believe in gay marriage.. so be it. However, that's different than believing gays deserve the same rights.

Personally, I'm ambivalent on the issue of whether we NEED gay marriage. I think we definitely deserve the same rights. Whether it's called marriage or not is something I really don't care about. If two people are together and united under a legal bond recognized by the government, I'll call them married no matter what the technical name is.

If that is true, then it should work the same way in reverse. The government should be able to declare that it will no longer recognize marriage for certain kinds of people. They could stop accepting marriages for non-christians. Or maybe they could stop allowing marriages for people over the age of 35. Say goodbye to interracial marriages. Not gone forever, just replaced with a 100% government-approved "United Legal Bond." All nice and "equivalent." Problem solved. Yes?

NO. There would be riots in the street.

That's what would happen in Canada if any government were stupid enough to roll back equal marriage for gay people. We have it. We are equal citizens. Makes no sense to me that you would deserve any less from your government.

 

[gsdx]

That's what would happen in Canada if any government were stupid enough to roll back equal marriage for gay people. We have it. We are equal citizens. Makes no sense to me that you would deserve any less from your government.

Indeed. 'Almost equal' is not 'equal'.