"I'm Not A Homophobe! I Just Don't Believe In Gay Marriage"

[JasunStrikesBack]

And by the way... MY opinion is that if you think you deserve rights that I don't, you aren't worth being my friend.

My opinion is that if you think you deserve rights that I don't, you're a pig and aren't worth getting to know.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Except no. You're wrong. 100%.

This isn't an "opinion." This is "I think I'm better than you and deserve special rights for it.

Fuck her.

Diamond Skin doesn't think straight people shouldn't get married.. but SHE thinks that gay people shouldn't. THat makes her a homophobe and him a person standing up for himself.

I'm beginning to see why we lost California, the most liberal state in America.

People against gay marriage thought it was okay to be against gay marriage cause they had gay friends and their gay friends were still their friends despite their 'opinions'.

So they voted YES, anyway.

UGH.

Does anyone think the Civil Rights Movement would have been successful if blacks accepted the 'opinions' of racist white people?

 

[Rex]

I think you are over reacting. You have every right to be upset but some people just have different political views.

I think it's very possible for someone to be friends with a gay person and not be FOR gay marriage. I think they do have some homophobia in them and they are not 100% accepting but they can still be friends with you. Not like she hates you.

I think it's wrong on your part to cut off ties just because of something like that. Makes you seem like a bitter person. Maybe try talking to her and over time you could change her view on that.


I never cut off ties with people I had a friendship with. Especially one for four years. Everyone has differences and a non accepting, bitter attitude is not helping your cause at all.

Face facts. Not everyone is going to stand with gays on politics. Doesn't mean they hate you.

Why isn't it the same with gay marriage.

Anyone who does not like or approve of gay marriage doesn't like gay people. Period. Just like anyone who doesn't like interracial marriage doesn't like black, latino, asian or people of different races of their own.

Acceptance doesn't happen over night. Gays are just NOW starting to become more and more accepted in society. It's going to take a long time for people to get over the stigma that has been thrust into society for centuries on religion and homosexuality. Your impatience and frustration just makes you out to look like the bad guy.

Like I said, you have every right to be angry and upset with your friend but just not talking to her and blowing her off makes you look foolish in my opinion. You should talk to her and let her know how you feel in a non confrontational way.

I'm beginning to see why we lost California, the most liberal state in America.

People against gay marriage thought it was okay to be against gay marriage cause they had gay friends and their gay friends were still their friends despite their 'opinions'.

So they voted YES, anyway.

UGH.

Does anyone think the Civil Rights Movement would have been successful if blacks accepted the 'opinions' of racist white people?

And do you think disassociating yourself from them is going to be better for your cause and help them to come around? It isn't.



PS: I'm glad you and Jasun and passionate for your rights and willing to fight for them but honestly, fuck both of you for being as narrow minded as the people you're hating on, and wow how typical to throw bisexuals into the mix as well.

It's gay guys with your attitudes that cause people to NOT want to support your cause.

 

[DiamondSkin]

I think you are over reacting. Some people just have different political views.

So frustrated. So very, very annoyed.

I am aghast. Being against gay marriage is not a 'political view'. It is not a 'differing view'. It is not an 'opinion'.

It is prejudice. When you are against gay marriage, you say you do not think that gays and lesbians should have the equal rights of heterosexuals. You are saying they are not good enough. You are saying you're a second class citizen and my marriage is better than your relationship.

It's a PREJUDICE.

I think it's very possible for someone to be friends with a gay person and not be FOR gay marriage. I think they do have some homophobia in them and they are not 100% accepting but they can still be friends with you. Not like she hates you.

So you wouldn't have a problem with a person against interracial marriage if you're a person of color, no.

You wouldn't have a problem with a person who has 'some' racism against your race, no? Not like she hates you. She just thinks less of you, is all.

I think it's wrong on your part to cut off ties just because of something like that. Makes you seem like a bitter person. Maybe try talking to her and over time you could change her view on that.

I would just as much cut a person off if he or she had racist views. Since I'm black.

Friendship is about equality. How can I be friends with someone who doesn't think I'm equal to her?

Face facts. Not everyone is going to stand with gays on politics. Doesn't mean they hate you.

Everyone who is against gay rights, I can't be friends with.

My grandfather was not friends with anyone who was against de-segregation.

He and I have fucking self-respect.

The fact that YOU think it's okay to tolerate someone else's prejudice, intolerance and homophobia speaks to your own lack of self-respect as a gay person...

 

[Rex]

You just don't seem to understand their views on the matter. Upbringing and religion has a strong control on people's views.

All I'm saying is you're not winning over anyone with your attitude and you're not helping your cause at all by bursting out in a dramatic, angry fit.

You have every right to be upset but acting on your emotions and being bitter is doing nothing for you.


PS: Race and sexuality can't always be compared. Especially when trying to educate homophobes since most of them aren't sure if sexuality was a choice or whatnot. You can't just demand their acceptance and expect to gain anything from it. It's just not going to work that way.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

Acceptance doesn't happen over night. Gays are just NOW starting to become more and more accepted in society.

And who do you think we have to thank for that?

Bisexuals who cower in the closet and ask their out friends to "not act so gay" in public and allow their friends to campaign against their rights because they have a "different political view" or people who stand up for the community and don't take "no" for an answer?

You think the progress has been made by people who are only gay when they get drunk and horny and have access to Grindr and Manhunt or people who've been protesting, working, campaigning, and letting people know it's not "OK" to think I'm not equal to them?

Let's see... my parents were very homophobic until I spent ages dragging them into reality and made them accept me and my husband. They now march in gay pride parades, run PFLAG meetings and mentor for gay students at the university they teach at.

How's your family doing with your strategy?

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

All I'm saying is you're not winning over anyone with your attitude and you're not helping your cause at all by bursting out in a dramatic, angry fit.

Actually... that's just how I got my parents to finally open their eyes. When they saw just how much they were hurting me... they made the effort to change and accept me.

 

[DiamondSkin]

You just don't seem to understand their views on the matter. Upbringing and religion has a strong control on people's views.

I understand their views and I just don't care.

I wouldn't give a rat's ass on why a person is racist either.

So if a person is raised to think that Jews are bad people and their religion says Jews are bad people, it's okay for them to be anti-Jew because they were raised that way?

It's their opinion after all?

All I'm saying is you're not winning over anyone with your attitude and you're not helping your cause at all by bursting out in a dramatic, angry fit.

I think we should all be angry. I think we should all feel SOMETHING.

The problem in the gay community is just complacency and lack of self-respect.

"Someone else will fight for my rights. Not me."

The fact that you think that anti-gay marriage prejudice is just a mere opinion like someone preferring vanilla over strawberry speaks of internalized homophobia.

You don't think you're deserving of it. Some part of you doesn't think you're an equal person. And some part of you is ashamed of it.

You have every right to be upset but acting on your emotions and being bitter is doing nothing for you.

Blacks won the Civil Rights Movement on a hell of a lot of emotion, anger, and bitterness.

I won't even speak of the race riots that helped move along the process.

It's better than just sittin' around and shrugging your shoulders....

 

[Rex]

And who do you think we have to thank for that?

Bisexuals who cower in the closet and ask their out friends to "not act so gay" in public and allow their friends to campaign against their rights because they have a "different political view" or people who stand up for the community and don't take "no" for an answer?

You think the progress has been made by people who are only gay when they get drunk and horny and have access to Grindr and Manhunt or people who've been protesting, working, campaigning, and letting people know it's not "OK" to think I'm not equal to them?

Let's see... my parents were very homophobic until I spent ages dragging them into reality and made them accept me and my husband. They now march in gay pride parades, run PFLAG meetings and mentor for gay students at the university they teach at.

How's your family doing with your strategy?

Exactly. That's what the OP needs to do with his friend. Simply blowing her off and writing her out of his life isn't going to ever help the cause numbnuts. That's what I'm trying to say.

Not everyone is going to come around but he has a better chance of educating her if he tried rather than just throwing a fit and cutting off all ties.

Actually... that's just how I got my parents to finally open their eyes. When they saw just how much they were hurting me... they made the effort to change and accept me.

That's because they're your parents and they probably wanted to compromise and still wanted you in their lives regardless of you being gay or not and had known you all their lives. The OP's friend has only known him for 4 years so that "strategy" is less likely to work.

 

[DiamondSkin]

"insecure homosexual "?

I wouldn't call you an idiot, but when you think that homophobia in any shape or form is just an 'opinion' to be respected or tolerated than yes, I do think it speaks of internal homophobia.

Believe it or not, many blacks had internal racism in the 1900s to 1970s. They thought they didn't deserve to marry a white person or they didn't deserve to go wherever they please. They were 'okay' with segregation and thought the people who were angry and bitter about it were crazy.

Apparently we still need to work on it in the gay community.

 

[hungrybrownbear]

I wouldn't call you an idiot, but when you think that homophobia in any shape or form is just an 'opinion' to be respected or tolerated than yes, I do think it speaks of internal homophobia.

Believe it or not, many blacks had internal racism in the 1900s to 1970s. They thought they didn't deserve to marry a white person or they didn't deserve to go wherever they please. They were 'okay' with segregation and thought the people who were angry and bitter about it were crazy.

Apparently we still need to work on it in the gay community.

Yeah, ok, because I can sympathize doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't respect their opinion, or tolerate it, but I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK THAT.

We've established that, albeit similar, race and sexual orientation are not equal. Please stop using that as the basis and standard for comparison. Without the incorporation of race a lot of your arguments would flop.

 

[frankfrank]

Let's see... She thinks that she's above him and deserves special rights that he doesn't get.

She's not a friend. She needs to be taught how hateful she is. She only has gay friends so she can say "some of my friends are gay."

However, there's some hope for her being "taught" only if there's some kind of communication to her, and some explanation why it is so hurtful and harmful. If the friendship is dissolved, at least let there be some possible side benefit from it. If she is never told any reason, I almost guarantee that she won't put two and two together and realize that she's hurting you (and perhaps others) by being against allowing you full rights. She may not have ever thought there's much of a difference in rights (when in point of fact marriage allows something like 1,130 new rights).

If even through your friend, DiamondSkin, I think it's prudent to at least explain this to her. Given the right circumstances, she might even change her mind. Be open to a discussion with her. If you manage to persuade her and she changes her mind,m you've done your part to make the world a better place - one person at a time.

 

[dpnice]

Your arguments are completely valid and I agree with them in the whole. But in the majority of cases you are preaching to the converted here on JUB.

So what I don't understand is why you didn't sit down with your friend and say to her exactly what you have said here.

I accept that once a person has formed an opinion it is more or less impossible to get them to change it but even so it is worthwhile to point out to them the opposite view point.

You have now lost a friend and missed out on the opportunity to persuade someone on the validity of equal rights.

Get back in contact with her and explain the anger and reasons behind your actions. Perhaps you can open her eyes and regain a friend that once you obviously appreciated.

 

[hungrybrownbear]

However, there's some hope for her being "taught" only if there's some kind of communication to her, and some explanation why it is so hurtful and harmful. If the friendship is dissolved, at least let there be some possible side benefit from it. If she is never told any reason, I almost guarantee that she won't put two and two together and realize that she's hurting you (and perhaps others) by being against allowing you full rights. She may not have ever thought there's much of a difference in rights (when in point of fact marriage allows something like 1,130 new rights).

If even through your friend, DiamondSkin, I think it's prudent to at least explain this to her. Given the right circumstances, she might even change her mind. Be open to a discussion with her. If you manage to persuade her and she changes her mind,m you've done your part to make the world a better place - one person at a time.

^ you better watch out, someone might come and call you an insecure homosexual idiot too, for having an opinion.

>:[

 

[DiamondSkin]

We've established that, albeit similar, race and sexual orientation are not equal. Please stop using that as the basis and standard for comparison. Without the incorporation of race a lot of your arguments would flop.

No, you established that race and sexual orientation were not 'equal'. Because you think that gay people can become straight, no?

Prejudice is prejudice. Intolerance is intolerance. Hate is Hate.

Sexism, racism, homophobia are ALL equally disdained and should ALL be equally intolerated and frowned own.

I'm using the references to race because there are direct parallels that gay rights suffers from.

 

[hungrybrownbear]

No, you established that race and sexual orientation were not 'equal'. Because you think that gay people can become straight, no?

Prejudice is prejudice. Intolerance is intolerance. Hate is Hate.

Sexism, racism, homophobia are ALL equally disdained and should ALL be equally intolerated and frowned own.

I'm using the references to race because there are direct parallels that gay rights suffers from.

Nope. It's not equal because there's a sexual aspect to it. Whereas in race you don't find that. That's why its called sexual preference. Whether or not you have a conscious choice is besides the issue.

Direct parallels aren't that direct. Racial rights had it A LOT worse than gay rights did.

Like bambigay said, you can change someone's opinion on gay marriage. It doesn't mean they are necessarily against gays if they are against gay marriage. They could just be misinformed, perversely influenced, or have misconceptions about what it entails.

A racist is a racist. There is no caveat. Period.

In this sense it's not the same.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Nope. It's not equal because there's a sexual aspect to it. Whereas in race you don't find that. That's why its called sexual preference. Whether or not you have a conscious choice is besides the issue.

You seem to think equal means same. No, equal means that one is just a valid as the other. Racism is an apple. Homophobia is orange. But they're both still fuckin' fruit....

Direct parallels aren't that direct. Racial rights had it A LOT worse than gay rights did.

That's arrogant of you to say. Who are you to say that one person's pain was great than another's? Who are you to say that one community's oppression was worse than another's?

You wanna know who REALLY had it bad? How about the Jews? They suffered THREE genocides in their damn history. Obviously their pain is 'greater' than the blacks who just complained too much...

Like bambigay said, you can change someone's opinion on gay marriage. It doesn't mean they are necessarily against gays. They could just be misinformed or influenced.

You can't do that for racists.

Someone needs to take off the rose-colored glasses and read up on American history.

Before de-segregation and before the legalization of interracial marriage, over half of America was against it. After it happened, people were still against.

In 1994, over 70% thought interracial marriage was wrong.

Do you think these racist people just suddenly vanished in 70s, 80s, and 90s?

Did all the racist people with racist 'views', 'opinions' and 'beliefs' just up and left?

NO. Their prejudice waned. Their bigotry decreased. Their beliefs changed.

If you're against gay marriage, you're homophobe plain and simple.

If you're against interracial marriage, you're a racist plain and simple.

 

[DiamondSkin]

It doesn't mean they are necessarily against gays if they are against gay marriage. They could just be misinformed, perversely influenced, or have misconceptions about what it entails.

When the issue of interracial marriage came up, people were 'misinformed' as you say.

Conservatives spread bullshit that children of interracial marriage would be born deformed. That they would be genetic lepers.

They also spread nonsense that children of interracial marriages would be mercilessly teased and outcast by other children of pure race.

Sound familiar?

Oh and they went to religious crap where God declared that man should breed only with his race and Jesus didn't intend for them to mix and that it was a crime against nature.

Sound familiar

There was LOTS of racist crap that everyone today apparently forgot.

But they were just 'misled' and 'misinformed', no? They weren't really racist....

A racist is a racist.
.

Agreed.

And homophobe is a homophobe.

 

[hungrybrownbear]

If you're against gay marriage, you're homophobe plain and simple.

Well I can't argue with someone who's already made up their mind.

Just because I'm not so quick to label someone a homophobe and I actually care about the reasons why they think what they think, doesn't make me less of a person, "'insecure", a "plain and simple idiot", or "self-disrespecting".

:]

 

[Rex]

I understand their views and I just don't care.

I wouldn't give a rat's ass on why a person is racist either.

So if a person is raised to think that Jews are bad people and their religion says Jews are bad people, it's okay for them to be anti-Jew because they were raised that way?

It's their opinion after all?



I think we should all be angry. I think we should all feel SOMETHING.

The problem in the gay community is just complacency and lack of self-respect.

"Someone else will fight for my rights. Not me."

The fact that you think that anti-gay marriage prejudice is just a mere opinion like someone preferring vanilla over strawberry speaks of internalized homophobia.

You don't think you're deserving of it. Some part of you doesn't think you're an equal person. And some part of you is ashamed of it.





Blacks won the Civil Rights Movement on a hell of a lot of emotion, anger, and bitterness.

I won't even speak of the race riots that helped move along the process.

It's better than just sittin' around and shrugging your shoulders....

I don't think you can compare the blacks civil rights movement to gay marriage equality. Blacks had it much worse but I understand your point.

Anyway I hope you reconcile with your friend.

It's not worth burning bridges over these kinds of things but good luck with whatever you decide to do.