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Is America the hope of the world?

Yeah, better slavery than death, isn't it. If some hate certain people so much, but they tolerate them for a while, it should make you wonder what benefit they are obtaining from tolerating those others... for that while.

If so many people want to go to America is not for what they ACTUALLY find, but for what they are SUPPOSED to find. We have a cheaper version of that over here in Europe, even in "sunny" Spain. The American Dream, or whatever is replacing it today, is a lottery (we all know they even have a particular system called precisely that way for certain particular cases, so it's not just a fancy metaphor): everybody is invited, even encouraged to buy a ticket, but not that many are welcomed to share a prize, let alone the bigger prize and, in fact, the less, the better; "American Dream" for everybody would be socialism, wouldn't it, and greed for everyone would mean the end of Gekko-capitalism.
No, socialism would not be better for everyone and the more socialism there is, the worse it is. But that comment tells us that you have been taught to focus on the inequality to the exclusion of all else. It gripes you that some people have more than you just because the have more ability and or work harder. You want from each according to ability, to each according to need, huh?
Poverty is a serious problem we should correct it, but inequality is irrelevant: People are not poor because others are rich. Oprah di not become a multi billionaire by taking from the poor, and they are not poor because she is rich. Taylor Lautner did not become worth 40 million because he took from the poor. The average pro basketball player makes 6.4 million a year, and pays high taxes, but they should divide it with belamo so he is equal. Right? Liberals love to think all rich people steal from the poor or inherit their wealth. But most of the wealthiest people to day started with very little capital and an idea to use the internet. Bezos of Amazon started selling books on the internet. Zuckman started Facebook with almost no capital. Gate started Apple in his parent’s garage. Entertainers and pro athletes become extremely wealthy and many are minority members.
 
Excuse me, but I don't think this is a very intelligent question.

Well, it's an unusual one, I'll grant you that.

For what reason could you possibly think America is the hope of the world.

Response: NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.
 
It must say "stupid" on my forehead. I know YOU don't believe that, I'm not sure why you expect ME to believe it. Waaait, is this one of those "black people could live like kings in this country if they weren't so lazy and felonious" sorta things? This whole "Look at me, I'm a white guy and I got mine against the odds (umm, what odds?) so why can't women and brown people do the same?" routine is really getting old.

Pro basketball players make an average of $6.4 million year. Oprah, 2+billion, Sidney Poitier 25 million, Forest Whitaker, 40 million, Morgan Freeman 150 million, Will Smith 240 million. To find an estimated net worth for any famous person,google the name and “net worth”. Please tell me a another time and place in history when such enormous fortunes could have been made so easily and quickly. What stopped you or any of us, from starting Facebook or Amazon? Third world immigrants often start businesses, why not you?
 
Well, it's an unusual one, I'll grant you that.

For what reason could you possibly think America is the hope of the world.

Response: NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.

If not, then who?
 
We aren't the best nation in the world. We have enormous potential, resources... the ideal of America is at its best something worth aspiring to, but we're nowhere near that yet. And we are regressing in crucial areas... what Benvolio and those sharing his philosophy se as great about America is absolutely far from it. If the GOP represents what's good about America, and what it stands for.. it's not an America I want to have anything to do with, and the world will pass, too. It isn't just Trump but the whole rotten GOP... and the Dems have a lot of reflection to do, I'm not letting them slide. One aspect of our progress is that the next generation will prosper more than the previous one, that the hard work and sacrifice of one's parents will result in a better world of opportunities for their children... is that something honestly we can say about this/next generation of Americans? Not in this America.

Millennials have both a lower life expectancy and lower income expectancy than their parents -- the first time this has happened in the U.S.
 
Yeah, better slavery than death, isn't it. If some hate certain people so much, but they tolerate them for a while, it should make you wonder what benefit they are obtaining from tolerating those others... for that while.

If so many people want to go to America is not for what they ACTUALLY find, but for what they are SUPPOSED to find. We have a cheaper version of that over here in Europe, even in "sunny" Spain. The American Dream, or whatever is replacing it today, is a lottery (we all know they even have a particular system called precisely that way for certain particular cases, so it's not just a fancy metaphor): everybody is invited, even encouraged to buy a ticket, but not that many are welcomed to share a prize, let alone the bigger prize and, in fact, the less, the better; "American Dream" for everybody would be socialism, wouldn't it, and greed for everyone would mean the end of Gekko-capitalism.

The American Dream was originally liberty. It was pretty much FDR who changed it to material possessions, and since Reagan it has been more and more about greed.

The truth is that economic mobility in the U.S. has fallen far from what it once was, well below a lot of other countries, and that freedom gets more and more limited.
 
No, socialism would not be better for everyone and the more socialism there is, the worse it is. But that comment tells us that you have been taught to focus on the inequality to the exclusion of all else. It gripes you that some people have more than you just because the have more ability and or work harder. You want from each according to ability, to each according to need, huh?
Poverty is a serious problem we should correct it, but inequality is irrelevant: People are not poor because others are rich. Oprah di not become a multi billionaire by taking from the poor, and they are not poor because she is rich. Taylor Lautner did not become worth 40 million because he took from the poor. The average pro basketball player makes 6.4 million a year, and pays high taxes, but they should divide it with belamo so he is equal. Right? Liberals love to think all rich people steal from the poor or inherit their wealth. But most of the wealthiest people to day started with very little capital and an idea to use the internet. Bezos of Amazon started selling books on the internet. Zuckman started Facebook with almost no capital. Gate started Apple in his parent’s garage. Entertainers and pro athletes become extremely wealthy and many are minority members.

Oprah is a lousy example since she has few employees.

But the Waltons have gotten rich by taking from the poor, specifically by keeping their employees as poor as possible (and guaranteeing big government by so doing).

And your examples of people who got rich ignores the fact that economic mobility in the U.S. sucks these days.
 
Pro basketball players make an average of $6.4 million year. Oprah, 2+billion, Sidney Poitier 25 million, Forest Whitaker, 40 million, Morgan Freeman 150 million, Will Smith 240 million. To find an estimated net worth for any famous person,google the name and “net worth”. Please tell me a another time and place in history when such enormous fortunes could have been made so easily and quickly. What stopped you or any of us, from starting Facebook or Amazon? Third world immigrants often start businesses, why not you?

Duh because I'm lazy and would rather have the white man hand me free welfare vouchers :gogirl:

That was cute though, the way you used millionaire athletes and entertainers as if they're some sort of representative of the general population. If only I were stupid enough to fall for your feeble attempts at manipulation. :(
 
Millennials have both a lower life expectancy and lower income expectancy than their parents -- the first time this has happened in the U.S.

But Kylie Kardashian has a tv show and a make-up line so clearly we're doing ok. :gogirl:
 
Pro basketball players make an average of $6.4 million year. Oprah, 2+billion, Sidney Poitier 25 million, Forest Whitaker, 40 million, Morgan Freeman 150 million, Will Smith 240 million. To find an estimated net worth for any famous person,google the name and “net worth”. Please tell me a another time and place in history when such enormous fortunes could have been made so easily and quickly. What stopped you or any of us, from starting Facebook or Amazon? Third world immigrants often start businesses, why not you?

Any time before the modern times (around XVI-XVIIth century). You just won a battle or a war and pillaged whatever was there ready for you to snatch.
And you are just giving further proof of what I pointed out: a few (white, black, yellow, green, redneck...) get the better share, and the rest stand by in awe. In fact, it's the exact same thing that has always been going on: the only difference is that, before, you got it through EXCLUSIVELY inheritance, and today you get it through being a juggler or a mass fool in general.
 
Any time before the modern times (around XVI-XVIIth century). You just won a battle or a war and pillaged whatever was there ready for you to snatch.
And you are just giving further proof of what I pointed out: a few (white, black, yellow, green, redneck...) get the better share, and the rest stand by in awe. In fact, it's the exact same thing that has always been going on: the only difference is that, before, you got it through EXCLUSIVELY inheritance, and today you get it through being a juggler or a mass fool in general.

No, but you cannot take an ordinary 8 ton5 job and expect to get rich. That requires that you do something on your own, hopefully selling something on the mass market; sell a product or your services, like entertainment, for a small amount of money to a huge number of people. If you just take a job you will be paid your market value— what It costs to hire you or someone else like you. You cannot reasonable expect to be paid much more than it will cost your employer to hire someone else with your ability and experience.
 
No, but you cannot take an ordinary 8 ton5 job and expect to get rich. That requires that you do something on your own, hopefully selling something on the mass market; sell a product or your services, like entertainment, for a small amount of money to a huge number of people. If you just take a job you will be paid your market value— what It costs to hire you or someone else like you. You cannot reasonable expect to be paid much more than it will cost your employer to hire someone else with your ability and experience.

Jobs requiring little to no skill offer little hope for making more than minimum wage.
If one wishes to make more, they have to learn more. This can be done on the job, most employers that I have known are willing to invest some time in training and teaching a punctual, eager, co-operative person.

I never "got rich" (I had no desire to), but I always made a decent living, save for 2009, that was a survival year.

Our system is based upon supply and demand, a lot of workers equals less demand and low value. Automation, robotics and out sourcing have lowered the demand for all workers. The lower the skill set the more the effect of these things, creating a permanent working poor class in our nation.

I have told many to get a skill of some kind, be flexible and ready to adapt. No one is going to knock on your door and offer you a job,
circulate, get out there.
 
(I think it's Kylie Jenner who is related to the Kardashians and whose makeup line is a smashing success...but, dear God, I'm digressing...)

OK, not all the immigrants on earth are coming to Upper Darby Township. Other places also offer their versions of hope and welcome. I would love to see that worldwide...because some places sure don't.
 
No, but you cannot take an ordinary 8 ton5 job and expect to get rich. That requires that you do something on your own, hopefully selling something on the mass market; sell a product or your services, like entertainment, for a small amount of money to a huge number of people. If you just take a job you will be paid your market value— what It costs to hire you or someone else like you. You cannot reasonable expect to be paid much more than it will cost your employer to hire someone else with your ability and experience.

You are taking three elements for granted: first, dependence on someone to trickle down a salary upon you; second, that the amount of money given to you basically depending on the quality of the job you do; and, third, that the mass market will stay there for ever, and under the same conditions, for you just to delve your spade and start hoarding gold from it.

You can work sixteen hours a day, be the fundamental piece in an enterprise, and still be in rags. You know that, no matter all the official discourse about hard job and excellence, much of the megabucks are given just like in the old days of ruling aristorcracy: you are rich more for enjoying a position and having the right contacts, than for actually "doing something on your own" which is of real economic value, and there are too many very wealthy managers who got paid millions for literally screwing businesses. So much for management.

As for excellence in performance in other activities, like entertainment and sports (well, in fact, both are the same, but they keep treating competition sports as something special, even in the news, as if it were so different and far above gossip), since when it’s the most talented athlete, say, Kournikova, you get more money for being considered pretty than for being a good player. Than even Federer or Nadal get millions of dollars for posing, while only thousands for “working hard” on the play that, supposedly, is the base of their fortune. Of course it is: just like in the case of the Kardashians, it’s not the talent, it’s the image and attention what gives money, and only the prudish or the clueless stupid believe it’s “talent” and “hard work” what is rewarded. The “something on your own” that you must do is simply to charm people, whether with your make-up or with your political promises.

Finally, we get to what has made Gates, Bezos or Buffet: the XXth century. Yes, the Unicorns like Amazon-Bezos are not the future, they are the culmination of that "mass market" you referred to, which is the essence of the XXth century. The golden globalization under the rule of the British in 1917, with which the middle class could have the world delivered to their feet, is different from today's globalization, in which Amazon and Google deliver, in the substitution of the ultimate dependence of the British government and its interests with the ultimate dependence and interests of capital fiefdoms, that is, the interests of certain big companies.

But that globality depends of the maintenance of the political climate that allows it: from 1917 to 1947 the basis of a new system that lasted over four decades was put in place, and only in the last twenty-something years, after the final implosion of the communist nonsense, we reverted to that world in which all the masses became a free market to exploit. But would you bet the next decades will continue the same dynamics: will all the terrorist threats, the instability in parts of the world that, decades ago, has been maintained stable for business development thanks to ruthless dictators and, most important, the increasing irrelevance of industrial production and massive consumer spending in the ultimate creation of wealth, along with the increasing loss of power of big global trademarks in favour of more local-based, and individual-oriented products, maintain the world in which Coca-Cola became a stalwart investment in Buffett's portfolio?
 
You are taking three elements for granted: first, dependence on someone to trickle down a salary upon you; second, that the amount of money given to you basically depending on the quality of the job you do; and, third, that the mass market will stay there for ever, and under the same conditions, for you just to delve your spade and start hoarding gold from it.

You can work sixteen hours a day, be the fundamental piece in an enterprise, and still be in rags. You know that, no matter all the official discourse about hard job and excellence, much of the megabucks are given just like in the old days of ruling aristorcracy: you are rich more for enjoying a position and having the right contacts, than for actually "doing something on your own" which is of real economic value, and there are too many very wealthy managers who got paid millions for literally screwing businesses. So much for management.

As for excellence in performance in other activities, like entertainment and sports (well, in fact, both are the same, but they keep treating competition sports as something special, even in the news, as if it were so different and far above gossip), since when it’s the most talented athlete, say, Kournikova, you get more money for being considered pretty than for being a good player. Than even Federer or Nadal get millions of dollars for posing, while only thousands for “working hard” on the play that, supposedly, is the base of their fortune. Of course it is: just like in the case of the Kardashians, it’s not the talent, it’s the image and attention what gives money, and only the prudish or the clueless stupid believe it’s “talent” and “hard work” what is rewarded. The “something on your own” that you must do is simply to charm people, whether with your make-up or with your political promises.

Finally, we get to what has made Gates, Bezos or Buffet: the XXth century. Yes, the Unicorns like Amazon-Bezos are not the future, they are the culmination of that "mass market" you referred to, which is the essence of the XXth century. The golden globalization under the rule of the British in 1917, with which the middle class could have the world delivered to their feet, is different from today's globalization, in which Amazon and Google deliver, in the substitution of the ultimate dependence of the British government and its interests with the ultimate dependence and interests of capital fiefdoms, that is, the interests of certain big companies.

But that globality depends of the maintenance of the political climate that allows it: from 1917 to 1947 the basis of a new system that lasted over four decades was put in place, and only in the last twenty-something years, after the final implosion of the communist nonsense, we reverted to that world in which all the masses became a free market to exploit. But would you bet the next decades will continue the same dynamics: will all the terrorist threats, the instability in parts of the world that, decades ago, has been maintained stable for business development thanks to ruthless dictators and, most important, the increasing irrelevance of industrial production and massive consumer spending in the ultimate creation of wealth, along with the increasing loss of power of big global trademarks in favour of more local-based, and individual-oriented products, maintain the world in which Coca-Cola became a stalwart investment in Buffett's portfolio?

I was thinking primarily of the US, which is still the largest market in history; third largest population, and wealthy, plus a part of the world wide English speaking market. It is that sheer size that enables entertainers, athletes and others to become very rich very quickly. Tayler Lautner in his early 20s is worth 40 million, for instance, from movies. Pro basketball players average 6.4 million a year. And yes, they are paid for ability, not for modeling. Authors of books also benefit from the huge market. A best seller can make a author rich. The lady who wrote the Harry Potter books is worth billions. She could not have done so well in another language. What they all have in common is, in effect, sell a service or product for small amount to millions of people.
 
I was thinking primarily of the US, which is still the largest market in history; third largest population, and wealthy, plus a part of the world wide English speaking market. It is that sheer size that enables entertainers, athletes and others to become very rich very quickly. Tayler Lautner in his early 20s is worth 40 million, for instance, from movies. Pro basketball players average 6.4 million a year. And yes, they are paid for ability, not for modeling. Authors of books also benefit from the huge market. A best seller can make a author rich. The lady who wrote the Harry Potter books is worth billions. She could not have done so well in another language. What they all have in common is, in effect, sell a service or product for small amount to millions of people.

That's almost totally right.
That someone like Kanye West amassed a fortune by passing for a legitimate singer, or that Walmart can be wealthier, counting only on the US and Canada, than, say, Carrefour spreaded all over the world, is something that could only come from America. And it's rich when "the foreigners", say Inditex or Ikea, or the Asian financial powers, beat the Americans at their own game... for as long as that game lasts... or is allowed to last.

But my point was to emphasize that all those riches have rather little to do with all the traditional tale of "hard work and talent" that is still sold to the masses and, most importantly, that all the mass market, with the mass rallies (sports, music...), mass transportation and global economy in general, is about to disappear (start disappearing, if you want, for the next thirty years or so) and that will mean the beginning of the "real 21st century", so that you can't plan the next forty years expecting to be anything like what you have assumed, lest your whole universe crumbles as it happened to poor Greenspan ten years ago. It will fall under the revolution of its own weight, and the apparent external agents, like the terrorists, will be hardly a trigger: they will simply be what they have been in the past decade or so, the rats occupying the palace left empty by its former ruler. That's actually what is starting to happen in the Middle East, where the "Western force" had it more difficult to root and, therefore, where it would start to recede... until that movement finally reaches us.

Tocqueville started his DIA by stating that the last six hundred years up to his times (eight hundrer until now) were the march towards a progressive democratization of the Western world: but, in fact, it is about something more fundamental and even more abstract; it is not about the freeing of the "common people" of the arbitrary tyranny of a smaller ruling class, but the freeing of the common people of anything that would stop making them "common" (I bet pat would especially like this part), including democracy itself.

And excuses for the poor grammar in my lengthy spiel, but I didn't have much time to revise and edit. The lengthy spiel quality is not to be forgiven, not more than the fact that too many people need to have more of it to open up their eyes, without fearing you are intent on destroying anything, rather the contrary.
 
That's almost totally right.
That someone like Kanye West amassed a fortune by passing for a legitimate singer, or that Walmart can be wealthier, counting only on the US and Canada, than, say, Carrefour spreaded all over the world, is something that could only come from America. And it's rich when "the foreigners", say Inditex or Ikea, or the Asian financial powers, beat the Americans at their own game... for as long as that game lasts... or is allowed to last.

But my point was to emphasize that all those riches have rather little to do with all the traditional tale of "hard work and talent" that is still sold to the masses and, most importantly, that all the mass market, with the mass rallies (sports, music...), mass transportation and global economy in general, is about to disappear (start disappearing, if you want, for the next thirty years or so) and that will mean the beginning of the "real 21st century", so that you can't plan the next forty years expecting to be anything like what you have assumed, lest your whole universe crumbles as it happened to poor Greenspan ten years ago. It will fall under the revolution of its own weight, and the apparent external agents, like the terrorists, will be hardly a trigger: they will simply be what they have been in the past decade or so, the rats occupying the palace left empty by its former ruler. That's actually what is starting to happen in the Middle East, where the "Western force" had it more difficult to root and, therefore, where it would start to recede... until that movement finally reaches us.

Tocqueville started his DIA by stating that the last six hundred years up to his times (eight hundrer until now) were the march towards a progressive democratization of the Western world: but, in fact, it is about something more fundamental and even more abstract; it is not about the freeing of the "common people" of the arbitrary tyranny of a smaller ruling class, but the freeing of the common people of anything that would stop making them "common" (I bet pat would especially like this part), including democracy itself.

And excuses for the poor grammar in my lengthy spiel, but I didn't have much time to revise and edit. The lengthy spiel quality is not to be forgiven, not more than the fact that too many people need to have more of it to open up their eyes, without fearing you are intent on destroying anything, rather the contrary.

Sometimes I get a boner from your posts.
 
Sometimes I get a boner from your posts.

Why, because I basically said that America's economy left to itself, without any sort of European or Asian influence, is only undercrafted, overpriced strass for the undiscerning clueless, and that its politics, left to the good genuine Americans, is Trumpism? :mrgreen:
 
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