On-Topic Is Being Counter Culture a Viable Choice for All Gay People?

[Rolyo85]

Why would you associate difference with brokenness? I don't see the connection. Even if you like all the things you listed, your perspective is that of a gay man, and it absolutely DOES change the way you perceive the world.

 

[chance1]

^ seems like he has the questions and the answers

Tell me your POV so I can tell u you're wrong

The world according to ......

This is so Groundhog Day

 

[JayHawk]

I Do not associate distance with broken. However both you and tx Beau indicate that I must have such a difference so the question is am I broken? Because I do not feel different About how I should dress our act compared to my hetero cohorts.

 

[JayHawk]

I Do not associate difference with broken. However both you and tx Beau indicate that I must have such a difference to exist as a gay man... so my question 'is am I broken?' Because I do not feel different About how I should dress or act compared to my hetero cohorts.

I corrected my text because I initially posted from a droid phone and did not do so accurately.

 

[Kulindahr]

The terms "heteronormative" and "assimilation" are bogus. Whenever there's been a sizable number of people who are different that join a society, they do not "assimilate" (no matter how much Stormfront members get all a-flutter over the concept). The two societies adopt bits of each other, until there's a balance that's accepted. And that's why "heteronormative" fails: if the main society grows up and accepts us "immigrants", we will not have assimilated, we will have with them joined into a new society.


As for getting married being a "heteronormative" thing, that's bullshit: this country is a newcomer to the continent, and there was gay marriage here back when our European ancestors were first figuring out how to put a sail on a boat. Two gays getting married on this continent is older than Tony Perkins' so-called "traditional marriage". The newcomers, radicals who changed things, are those who lie and tell us marriage has always been between one man and one woman. Gays getting married is going back to before this continent was even discovered by Europeans. It's a declaration to the bigots that they need to grow up and join the ways of ancient society.



Addendum: I've met one guy who convinced me he chose to be gay. Out of all the gays I've met, that makes a rate of less than one in a thousand -- so 99.9% of gays don't choose, and 0.1%... maybe.

 

[Rolyo85]

I Do not associate distance with broken. However both you and tx Beau indicate that I must have such a difference so the question is am I broken? Because I do not feel different About how I should dress our act compared to my hetero cohorts.

If you're broken, it's not something inherently related to being gay. I don't know you, so I can't tell. But you ARE different. You might not feel different, but the differences are often subconscious and hard to see from the inside. They don't need to be visual or outward at all, but I can promise you that your mind works in a different way. It had no choice but to develop differently, growing up.

Kuli, I completely disagree that "heteronormative" is bogus. The entire mainstream gay culture right now is trying to be as "straight" as possible. And if you go on a hook up site, the heteronormativity becomes glaring.

 

[JayHawk]

I disagree. I think the hets are taking our hookup mentality to the next level just as many of us are taking relationships to another level.

I still entirely disagree with you. Me and the guy I have talked to off and on who is trained in psychology (which is why I have talked with him mostly) have established that it really is no different. I love people regardless of whether they are a man or a women. I have goals that have nothing to do with my dick and wouldn't if I was jones-ing for pussy every other hour.

If you could say one thing about me that is unique that can be related to being a gay man is I am highly adaptable. I can be in just about any situation and fit in. I can hide things from people and deceive them with the greatest of ease from years of being in a organization that did not recognize me as equal. So if you mean that sure I have adapted but that doesn't make me any different than folks who adapt to the conditions life place on us. We are all different and unique in some way. But I dont consider myself of possessing some specific characteristic because of my inherent gayness. That is absurd.

 

[TX-Beau]

“Our” hookup mentality? What does that mean? It sounds suspiciously like some kind of judgmental gay negative stereotype.

Men in general have been promiscuously chasing tail since the dawn of time. Even sex negative religions like the Catholic Church have been winking and nodding at male monogamy for most of their histories, not to mention culture that praises men for the number of twat they can hit. How exactly are straight guys “taking our hookup mentality to the next level?” Frankly we don’t have much to teach them about promiscuity. The only brake on them is women, which is a whole other issue closely tied to the idea that real men fuck a lot of pussy.

This whole (actual as opposed to female) monogamy this is pretty recent social development and isn’t actually catching on like a house on fire. I suspect that is completely related to women insisting that men actually behave the way they only paid lip service to in the past. For that matter, women are not exactly all that monogamous either. They just tend to hide it better because the accusation of slut is a real thing in their lives.



You are different. You fuck men. That is a fundamental difference from a straight person. You date men. That is a fundamental difference from a straight person. You know that if you hold your hold your boyfriends hand walking down the street, that a good percentage of the people you pass are calling you faggot in their heads. That is a fundament difference from a straight person. It’s pointless to claim that these things and all the myriad other issues that you have to care about that straight people don’t, haven’t affected who you are and how your personality developed, and if a “psychologist,” is telling you different, find a new counselor because that one isn’t dealing in reality.

Now we certainly have things in common with straight people, but we aren’t “just like them,” any more than they are “just like us.” I don’t mean to sound flip, but that is glaringly obvious and kinda a deal with it situation.

Now perhaps at some future point where there is no homophobia at all an little gay middle-schoolers can have public, shame and consequence free crushes on the quarterback of the football team perhaps we will be closer to “just like them,” but still, we ARE different and will never be “just like them.” Which is fine. Why do we want to be “just like…” anyone at all? We not just try to be the best us we can.

 

[JayHawk]

Well first of all sunshine what I meant by the hookup mentality is that social location based dating was a gay industry and now has branched out. Second a Psychologist who accepts who you are and grasp most of the concepts of modern psychology is what i need. Not someone who will hold my hand and pat me on the back telling me my delusional thoughts about being special are real.

I am studying psychology and get the reinforcement from a trained psychologist so please pardon me if I don't take your uneducated word. Taking in my sexuality is a aspect just like being black or Hispanic is an aspect of my psyche. For you it appears it is your definition. It doesn't have to be that way but if that is what you believe then it is so. If you can find people who desire to reinforce that in you then more power to you. However the way I live my life and how satisfied I am with who I am is NOT defined by you.

Of course being called a fag and holding a guys hand vice a girls is different but you are trying to elevate something that just isn't there. But hey if it makes you feel good then feel that way. I don't need to mentally self promote my sexuality above what it is in reality. I am great just as who I am. However if you need to tell yourself your special to get through the day then have at it.

 

[JayHawk]

I think you need to take a step back. Being counter culture and being different are two entirely different things. Am I different? Of course. Does that one difference define me to my core? Of course not. We are all different in a specific set of things. The combination defines us not one single aspect.

To insinuate I must live life by your definition or not be satisfied is the epitome of hubris and ignorance.

 

[Rolyo85]

I am sorry to interject in your homophobic rant, but it got too cliched, so I thought I should say something:

Being different and being counter culture are two DIFFERENT things. Nobody here is equating one with the other. But it IS easier to be counter culture when you are different, that's an undeniable fact.

As for how being gay is just one more thing about you, I am glad that this delusion works for you, because I'm sure it gives you great comfort. However, for those of us who have no problem with being different, the realization that everything you've ever done (including the need to be talking to a psychiatrist btw) is a direct result of being born with a dick that points to boys, is not in any way problematic.

I want the same things straight people (are supposed to) do - a nice place to live, someone to live there with, a stable and happy life, kids - but I do not want them in the same way that straight people do, because I did not get where I am today the way straight people did. I have posted this on a number of times, and I will post it again because it clearly bears repeating:

I don't know your situation, so I will give example with myself, just for exactness sake. The point I am making doesn't care about personal history, so it applies to all of us, I just want the example to not be open to argument, which is why I'm using myself:

I came out at 25. I spent most of my life being distinctly aware that I was attracted to guys. As a kid, I just tried to ignore it. I only searched for pictures where there was ALSO a girl present, so I could delude myself that she had anything to do with the effect the picture had on me. I was ashamed of the prospect of being attracted to men, so I pushed it aside, ignored it, compartmentalized my attraction so as to make it not related to me in any way. Bullshit of course. But I grew up with this shame of who I was, this secret that horrified me, that had to be hidden from everyone and that I had to deny to myself because admitting it would make it true. I tried to tell myself that I also liked girls, I just hadn't found the right one. If I found her and ended up having sex with her, all of heterosexuality would pour itself into me.

It took until my 25th year to actually be able to admit I was gay. Anyone who thinks my life up to that point hasn't been DRAMATICALLY influenced by my sexuality, is, quite frankly, a moron. EVERYTHING I am is a result of the driving feelings and impulses I've had growing up. All my insecurities, all my relationships with people are COMPLETELY defined by the giant secret I've lived with for most of my adult life. I came out two years ago, and everything I've done since then has also been heavily influenced by my sexuality. My growth as a person in that period has everything to do with finding my true self, figuring out what mattered to me, what I wasn't ever again going to hide or deny because it would lower my self-worth.


Tell me anyone's life-story and I will tell you EXACTLY how being gay shaped most of who he is as a person today. Sexuality is one of the most primal, strongest driving forces in a person's life, especially in his formative years. And ESPECIALLY when it's alternative sexuality, which has so much social crap poured on top of it.

So yes, I thoroughly disagree with you that you are not defined by your sexuality. You might not want to be seen as "the gay guy" by society (though I wear it with pride, but to each their own), but being gay has shaped who you are, how you behave and how you interact with that society in a trillion different ways. Whether you're going to hide it or not is your own choice, but to try and deny that is burying your head in the sand.

 

[maxpowr9]

I think you need to take a step back. Being counter culture and being different are two entirely different things. Am I different? Of course. Does that one difference define me to my core? Of course not. We are all different in a specific set of things. The combination defines us not one single aspect.

To insinuate I must live life by your definition or not be satisfied is the epitome of hubris and ignorance.

Something I remember from my sociology class on sex, gender, family. We all have various labels: male, gay, white/Caucasian, apolitical, Bostonian, gamer etc. that may not make us unique but it is the collection of said subgroups that we belong to that makes us unique.

So even the notion of a counter-culture is a misnomer at best. Transposed, one could view "normal" society as counter-culture to your own traditions. It's a tad derisive to do so but it is about context.

 

[JayHawk]

I am sorry to interject in your homophobic rant, but it got too cliched, so I thought I should say something:

Being different and being counter culture are two DIFFERENT things. Nobody here is equating one with the other. But it IS easier to be counter culture when you are different, that's an undeniable fact.

As for how being gay is just one more thing about you, I am glad that this delusion works for you, because I'm sure it gives you great comfort. However, for those of us who have no problem with being different, the realization that everything you've ever done (including the need to be talking to a psychiatrist btw) is a direct result of being born with a dick that points to boys, is not in any way problematic.

I want the same things straight people (are supposed to) do - a nice place to live, someone to live there with, a stable and happy life, kids - but I do not want them in the same way that straight people do, because I did not get where I am today the way straight people did. I have posted this on a number of times, and I will post it again because it clearly bears repeating:

Homophobic rant? Really? So you just started the thread not to gain any insight from other perspectives but to smash your idea of existence into every other human being who identifies as gay? Quite a odd delusion you are living.

I acknowledge that being gay is a huge part of me but both you and TxBeau seem to think it is the singular defining characteristic of your existence. News flash it is not.

Plus I take personal exception to the idea that simply because I do not embrace your idea that every life action has been started and ended with the idea that i am gay. It would seem to me that your entire focus in life revolves around your sexuality. That is definitely not the case for the average human being gay or straight. That is called being sexually addictive.

BUT again like I said if it defines you and that is how you want to do everything in life then feel free. It does not define my very existence. If it did then i could not objectively lead men because I would always pick favorites based on my sexual desires instead of capability or suitability. That is simply not who or how I am.

It is funny to see someone declare that unless I embrace their thought of how life is then I am denying my self. Transference much?

 

[bankside]

I think the whole idea of "counterculture" is based on academically questionable ideas arising from socialism and sociology.

The choice is not "be myself" or "assimilate to someone else's idea of who I should be." Who else's idea? Some other person. And if that person has power to define how I live my life, the only possibility is that I also have that power.

So I will define a sphere of reduced possibilities for homophobes. They are now living in my society, under my rules. Society will contain them, and they can be marginalized and alienated until they grow up. If any of them feel bullied and suicidal because not only can they get married, but so can I, then I don't know exactly what kind of psychotherapy they need, but it isn't my responsibility to limit myself.

Basically I am talking about the ability to change and to lead society as a preferable alternative to hiding away from it, or assuming that we have to live in a straightjacket of conformity which is really only an illusion.

 

[TX-Beau]

Well first of all sunshine what I meant by the hookup mentality is that social location based dating was a gay industry and now has branched out. Second a Psychologist who accepts who you are and grasp most of the concepts of modern psychology is what i need. Not someone who will hold my hand and pat me on the back telling me my delusional thoughts about being special are real.

I am studying psychology and get the reinforcement from a trained psychologist so please pardon me if I don't take your uneducated word. Taking in my sexuality is a aspect just like being black or Hispanic is an aspect of my psyche. For you it appears it is your definition. It doesn't have to be that way but if that is what you believe then it is so. If you can find people who desire to reinforce that in you then more power to you. However the way I live my life and how satisfied I am with who I am is NOT defined by you.

Of course being called a fag and holding a guys hand vice a girls is different but you are trying to elevate something that just isn't there. But hey if it makes you feel good then feel that way. I don't need to mentally self promote my sexuality above what it is in reality. I am great just as who I am. However if you need to tell yourself your special to get through the day then have at it.

Yeah, all of that came out of your head, and you are responsible for it. If you want to rail at yourself so be it. Doesn't get you anywhere though, or is it that you just want to be outraged? Who knows?

anyway...

Well first of all sugarpie, if you are going to say nasty things to me have the nads to say it here. You seem to be getting extremely defensive for no apparent reason.

So lets talk about something positive, what exactly is it that's hit the nerve you're obviously working?

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh and by the way, if there is any actual science in psychology it's really good at hiding. The whole field amounts to educated guessing at best.

 

[JayHawk]

Sexually addictive? Just because one may be more focused on their sexual orientation doesn't mean they are "sexually addictive". Lets stop passing out judgments of people on this forum I'm sure you haven't met in person. And I fail to see where Rolyo said that his entire life revolves around his sexuality. I've had my arguments with him in the past, but I just don't see it in his or Tx-Beau's arguments.

Well perhaps that is a bit too far. But sexual identity is not the end all of your personality is it? I mean is that all you are?

It seems if I don't accept that my sexual identity shaped every single action I have ever made then all of a sudden i am homo-phobic, delusion-ed and ranting. Are you the culmination or has your life been the culmination of only your sexual identity?

Yeah, all of that came out of your head, and you are responsible for it. If you want to rail at yourself so be it. Doesn't get you anywhere though, or is it that you just want to be outraged? Who knows?

anyway...

Well first of all sugarpie, if you are going to say nasty things to me have the nads to say it here. You seem to be getting extremely defensive for no apparent reason.

So lets talk about something positive, what exactly is it that's hit the nerve you're obviously working?

I did say it. I said in private that is the most ignorant thing you have said to date and here I repeated that in post #32.

I just don't understand why it is if i disagree with you I am homophobic, and delusion-ed? I mean seriously. You agree with Rolyo that every action you have taken has been a result of being a gay man?

 

[JayHawk]

Oh and by the way, if there is any actual science in psychology it's really good at hiding. The whole field amounts to educated guessing at best.

And there is little cohesion in the field itself. Psychologists don't often agree with each other... they are often at odds with each other. I've taken a few courses in college... definitely not worth the time. His statements about wanting a psychologist to tell him he's just like everybody else are a bit twisted.

Both of these I agree with BUT I disagree that it is healthy for a psychologist to focus my entire existence around my sexuality. The psychologist is usually attempting to allow the client to accept and productively use their own thoughts and not project their values and beliefs onto the client.

 

[JayHawk]

So let me get the premise of Tx Beau and Rolyo right and they can feel free without the projection of their own inadequacy to correct me on their views. If I do not feel that homosexuality is the beginning and the end of every decision I make then I am wrong as a gay man or somehow denying myself?

Further just being different than straight folks means counter culture is the only option?

 

[TX-Beau]

When you start equating things like promiscuity to things like gay you are entering territory well covered by homophobes. Be careful. I didn't call you any names at all - so I do find it curious that that's the first place you went.

Why might that be? Neither did anyone jump to this extreme:

" I mean seriously. You agree with Rolyo that every action you have taken has been a result of being a gay man?"

I also find it curious that this is the first place you went.

Why do I find those things curious of guru of Psychology studying with the wise men on the mountains?

When people put words in other people's mouths in order to argue with themselves, it suggests mental dissonance.