On-Topic Is Being Counter Culture a Viable Choice for All Gay People?

[JayHawk]

So by taking a random sample from guys posting on a porn website you somehow have unmasked the problem. Hardly scientific and while you may desire to help the fact that you jump to such rapid conclusions without asking a single question for clarity is quite telling. Like I said the help forum tends to lean towards the preach forum more often than not. The posters there are typically posting to validate themselves more than anything else.

 

[JayHawk]

BTW what is the message in your post besides saying you misunderstood me but your opinion is more nuanced because you post on an internet help site?

 

[chance1]

here's what i've learned from this lengthier than required thread - full of uber lengthy posts by people who don't read posts that they're responding to:

1 - Jayhawk is really comfortable with himself - likes himself a great deal - happy as a clam
good that u r ........ u don't need to tell us every post

2 - Author + 1 + another will not take a hint and back off
it's amazing to me that gay men most of whom have experienced being judged harshly for their being, are not willing to do so to others when they don't conform to their limited POV of what being gay means

3 - this is a very mean girls esque thread - proof that everyone is gay and OK

and finally, kudos to JockBoy for saying briefly all that really matters

read that post and the rest doesn't really exist

 

[bankside]

I totally lost track of this thread after jayhawk agreed with me thirty posts ago.

 

[Rolyo85]

Whatever. Anyone is free to stay with one foot in the closet for whatever reasons they use to justify it. I am free to think that is not being out, that it is a lesser choice of lifestyle than being out, and that it doesn't do any favors to the gay agenda - which, BY THE WAY, has nothing to do with alternative lifestyles or promiscuity, but is - at it's core - simply an attempt to get rid of the hatred, bigotry and persecution of gay people. As long as it's safer for a school kid to stay in the closet than to be out, I will hold the opinion that any adult who makes the choice to be closeted of his own free will is not doing it right. Feel free to ascribe all manner of fascist labels to me.

 

[JayHawk]

It is quite simple to say your way or the world isnt safe. Isn't that how republicans held power for the first decade of this century?

one foot in the closet is amusing. How many AIDS walks have you helped organize?

How many pride floats have you ridden on?

How many acts makes you a proper gay man to Rolyo?

 

[Rolyo85]

Poor, poor JayHawk. Using Republican strategies while accusing others of it is a little bit of a shoot yourself in the foot sorta deal.

I have never walked or helped organize an AIDS walk. Never ridden on any pride floats. Never done anything GAY, other than wear a rainbow on my wrist wherever I am. What I do is, I am outspoken, I am confident, and because my personality is very blunt and sexual, there is not a single person around me that isn't aware that I am gay within a few minutes of having met me.

Does this make me some great contributor to the gay agenda? No. But nobody who knows me feels threatened by gay people, or uneasy around them. Because I don't hide my interests, straight guys never assume they are directed at them. Because I don't treat my sexuality as some need-to-know state secret, nobody else thinks there's anything interesting about it either. Except for embracing it and being curious of course, because that's what you do when you don't know much about something, and there is someone open and confident enough to tell you anything you might be curious to learn.

But feel free to put more words in my mouth and paint me as an evil dictator who tells gay men when they are worthy to be called gay. You do nothing but embarrass yourself and seem more and more like being gay is actually a very sore issue for you.

And btw, is being gay worse than being straight? Is gay acting worse than straight acting? A yes or no would be good.

 

[JayHawk]

Wow so you have done nothing but be who you are where you are and somehow in your eyes that makes you above everyone else?

I have been in two and supported / helped organize a walk. I suppose just living my life now means I am a cretin.

You sir have one goal in mind and that is to jam your idea of how people should be and if people have differeing opinions you say fine... feel differently... but understand you do nothing for gay people.

You are a joke.

 

[Telstra]

Let's take a little bit of break from politics and talk about something that Henry Reardon made me think about in another topic.

I know there are people who believe that gay culture has turned too heteronormative, that we've "straightened up" from the queer wild rainbow of shapes and forms that were all embraced when the movement was at its prime. And a lot of them believe that we shouldn't be striving for things like gay marriage at all, because that's losing our uniqueness, buying into mainstream culture instead of giving it the finger like we once did. I am not going to say this is wrong or bad. I have grown up in the calm years of the gay movement, and I like the mainstream life, but I am perfectly fine with people who want different things and don't wish to conform with society's rules. I can make the argument that it's easy to be counter culture when culture hates you, but when it begins to accept you, a large chunk of the reason to show it the finger begins to fizzle out.

What I want to discuss is this - is just saying "fuck it" to straight acceptance really an option that is viable for ALL of us? In my opinion it isn't. Unlike literally ANY other movement (except for those based on race or gender), we do not choose the thing that makes us different (and please, if you anyone here believes homosexuality is a choice - though I doubt there are such - feel free to eat sh... to stay away from this discussion, because it stems from the assumption that it's not). Furthermore, when it comes to gays who are also on the more feminine side, hiding oneself becomes impossible.

You can make the decision to be counter culture when you have reached a certain point of your life when you are not completely dependent on others. You can't be counter culture when you realize you like boys at the age of 6. You can't be counter culture when the kids in middle school bully you to the point of suicide. You can't truly give the finger to society until you are self-sufficient enough not to be totally dependent on it.

And it is precisely the LGBT youth that suffers the most from homophobia. Young boys and girls who are met with hostility, resentment and violence because that's still ok. And in order for this to change, I believe we need EVERYTHING - gay marriage, gay adoption, serving openly in the military, non-discrimination protections in school, work and housing... the whole spiel. I believe that everyone should be free to not partake of these benefits if they believe them to be an undesirable level of conformism. But I would feel nothing but contempt for someone who used this excuse to be against them. Because having those is what will complete the transition of homosexuality into a legitimate part of society. And having that transition is what will save millions of kids from growing up emotionally stunted and psychologically damaged from all the hate and invalidation they experience growing up. And perhaps thousands of them from suicide.

What are your thoughts on the matter, guys?

The "open minded world/west" are getting there slowly but the rest of the world especially the islamic world has so much more to go. Maybe the internet will spread the tolerance easier.

 

[Telstra]

^ seems like he has the questions and the answers

Tell me your POV so I can tell u you're wrong

The world according to ......

This is so Groundhog Day

umm his point of view was on post 1.


Oh dear, this thread is about bitching match?

 

[beetle]

well well well....
after reading the majority of this thread, i could just remember on a talk i had with a rommate...

as i worked in university as a tutor, my roommate asked "does the prof. know that you are gay?" and i just answered "please tell me one situation it would have been slightly relevant to tell him my sexual preferences?"

also, as a "straight actor" (this term is bs, i'm just who i am, not acting anything) i have been accused with the greatest bs from some gays that i'd hide my "true self" and "halfway closet" (though i am openly gay, in the meaning that everyone that knows me private knows it).

am i half-closet when certain people of my everyday life that have no whatsoever connection to my sexuality don't know i am gay?

i see the courage of people walking around in high-heels and what they do to the gay community; but i just don't feel the urge openly telling my sexual preference in terms that have absolutely nothing to do with it.

like...i am also a socialist (in usa, i think you'd call it more communist). but it's not that i wear my white-star-on-red-ground-t-shirt everwhere, or when i am discussing sex terms press everyone my political views in their faces.

@Rolyo
it's a wrong dichotomia you are implementing imo. is anything better than anything is always the wrong way imo, since there are different individuals. "gay acting" would be, in my special case, really acting. i grew up with a heterosexual brother, it's just who i am. also, i see when someone would feel uneasy with "straight acting", than he should be gay acting. when he sees himself this way, and feels uneasy with not showing his sexual preference: who cares? i don't think one way is better than the other for everyone, just in individual views.

also, i don't really see the problem...maybe, that's because i live in a country with an openly gay vice-cancellor and an openly gay major of the capital (the mayor of berlin had held a very puplic speech here, refering "i am gay, ladys and gentlemen, and it is good that way")

i really don't understand why one way of "acting" should be superior above the other. also, i don't see a huge impact of being gay to y everyday life. sure, i give you a point with "everything you do, you see it through the eyes of a gay man", but also: every catholic sees the things in the eyes of a catholic man etc.

should a catholic now always wear a crucifix? alway show other people his believe, also when he works e.g. in the science sector, where it has nothing to do with it? is he a bad catholic when he doesn't?

 

[JayHawk]

Ok I did so more in detail in private so i will do so here as well.

I apologized to TX Beau and Rolyo and explained what i think went wrong in the discourse in this thread.

Neither have responded but I think we can all grasp that assumed characterization of any poster is devoid of any fact and just done so because it makes argument convenient.

To right this ship, hopefully, I would make a few statements about gay male sexuality and presence.

First I would say the vast majority of LGBT folks simply live their lives. Not in the closet necessarily but not on the forefront of demanding rights. That is not to say a rally would not be supported or a gay pride. Just simply that they do not devote each and every day to pushing their right to exist completely equally on other people.

Second because I believe the first statement I then have to say NO counter culture is not the mainstay and only option for LGBT persons. I think there is a great deal of value added by the diversity of expression we have as a group. It is my perception that LGBT people are more driven and often much more wealthy than their counterparts who have male to female sexual urges. That I don't know why but it has just been my experience.

 

[Telstra]

Ok I did so more in detail in private so i will do so here as well.

I apologized to TX Beau and Rolyo and explained what i think went wrong in the discourse in this thread.

Neither have responded but I think we can all grasp that assumed characterization of any poster is devoid of any fact and just done so because it makes argument convenient.

To right this ship, hopefully, I would make a few statements about gay male sexuality and presence.

First I would say the vast majority of LGBT folks simply live their lives. Not in the closet necessarily but not on the forefront of demanding rights. That is not to say a rally would not be supported or a gay pride. Just simply that they do not devote each and every day to pushing their right to exist completely equally on other people.

Second because I believe the first statement I then have to say NO counter culture is not the mainstay and only option for LGBT persons. I think there is a great deal of value added by the diversity of expression we have as a group. It is my perception that LGBT people are more driven and often much more wealthy than their counterparts who have male to female sexual urges. That I don't know why but it has just been my experience.

mmmm Margaret cho said "fag hags are the back bones of the gay community".
I would say "drag queens" are the back bones of the gay community also. They took all the shit and stayed strong.

 

[JayHawk]

I agree. There is so much strength in the people who are able to accept and embrace LGBT folks as exactly who they are and promote them to the outside world and to themselves most of all.

 

[bankside]

I agree. There is so much strength in the people who are able to accept and embrace LGBT folks as exactly who they are and promote them to the outside world and to themselves most of all.

I resist calling this "strength."

I prefer to think of it as "bare minimum human decency" or "If I had treated someone otherwise when I was growing up, I would have got a look from across the room that would have frozen the Sun" or something like that.

 

[JayHawk]

I resist calling this "strength."

I prefer to think of it as "bare minimum human decency" or "If I had treated someone otherwise when I was growing up, I would have got a look from across the room that would have frozen the Sun" or something like that.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think you took that from the perspective of those not gay or lesbian. I mean those who promote our existence via their everyday lives. Or simply because that is who they are and they are helpless to change it so they have embraced it.

 

[bankside]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think you took that from the perspective of those not gay or lesbian. I mean those who promote our existence via their everyday lives. Or simply because that is who they are and they are helpless to change it so they have embraced it.

Oh. I think I did.

I see what you mean. I agree that strength is required to shrug off homophobia, but to me the word "strength" implies reaching for something otherwise out of reach. I'm not sure it should take a special effort for us to be ourselves, enjoy the day, get along in life, be content and make it from A to B….

 

[Rolyo85]

@ JayHawk - I haven't been online all day (played a concert in the 'burbs), so that's why I didn't respond to your message. I will explain in a bit what I believe to be the reason for all the drama on here, but I also apologize for the rushed remarks.

@ mitchymo - I believe you are a bit wrong on a few things:

1. The term "straight-acting" SHOULD be belittled. It is homophobic and has a very specific meaning - "not like those flamboyant fags, but just a dude fucking guys". I realize now this is not the meaning you put into it, but that's what it stands for. It's a code word.

2. To say that "NOBODY is trying to be anything but who they are" in the gay community is ignorant at best, and deliberately misleading at worst. I don't think you are trying to mislead anyone, but you are just outright wrong. I would say however, that the "gay" side of the group is just as guilty of "trying" to be something else as is the "just one of the guys" side. But it is an absolutely undeniable fact that a lot of people try to fit into "gay" and "straight" stereotypes due to random sexuality-related issues - self-hatred, fear of getting old and being alone, gay-bar-culture peer pressure, you name it. I was having drinks with a guy who couldn't stand that he was too feminine, but at the same time couldn't spend less than an hour taking care of his face, plucking his eyebrows and thinking about how soon he would need to have his eyes "done". Insecurity is rampant within the gay community, and it is equally distributed between the semi-closeted and the flamboyant halves.

3. GiancarloC's question is perfectly valid. I have done a bit of research - asking out gay guys who seem well adjusted about whether if they could "cure" their homosexuality, they would do it. MOST say "yes". To a LOT of gays being gay is worse than being straight, even if only because of social reasons. But the simple fact is, you forge your own social reasons. True, your choices of where to live and what to work are more limited when you're gay who wants to be out, but you still have them, and a lot of them are pretty fucking amazing. So yeah, the question is valid. It's good that your answer is what it is, but don't assume it's every gay guy's answer. It's not. I am not sure it's even most gay guys' answer.


A little bit more about what I think is the core of all the arguments in this topic. Modern gay culture has veered from the flamboyancy and wild no-restraint garishness of the 70s and 80s. It is now a glorification of the straight man, of the hetero ideal - both in terms of sexuality and life goals. How many "amateur straight college boys" sites are featured on this very site? The classical "straight men are hotter than gay men" assumption is everywhere, and living in Boystown, Chicago, I see how fashion here is defined by it. Of course, there are still all sorts of colorful characters, but the majority are trying to be a "gayed-up" version of the buff macho straight dude.

This is wrong. It breeds internalized homophobia, and has led to the development of a sub-culture hook-up terminology in which certain words are loaded with more meaning than they used to have. "Discreet" (or usually - "discrete" -_- ), "down-low", "nsa only" are all things meant to say "I am closeted. I fuck dudes on the side. Nobody knows. I don't want to change it". "Chill", "masc", "straight-acting" are all anti-terms. All of them mean "NOT GAY" in the sense of not feminine, not flamboyant, not into "gay culture", not subscribing to gay causes, just a dude fucking dudes.

The list goes on. Those words are red flags. They mean something more than what they say. So when you tell me you are straight-acting, you don't tell me that you are living a regular Joe life where your gayness is not the focus of your world and you don't spend two hours moisturizing every day. You are telling me you hate the thought that someone might think that of you, that you are horrified of being thought of as "less than a man". "You" being anyone in this case, not any particular poster here.

I have developed hypersensitivity to those words, and occasionally I respond more sharply to them than I should, for which I apologize. But we have to be aware that in modern day gay culture words and labels ARE important, and we should pick them carefully.

 

[JayHawk]

Just to pick apart one comment above. I have given it a great deal of thought and if given some magical choice I would still want to be gay. Being straight solves nothing but I think being gay somehow makes you resilient and smarter. Don't ask me the variety of reason why i feel this way but i do. Perhaps the best concept is that with more acceptance in your own heart your world opens up that much further.

 

[Rolyo85]

I completely agree, though I'd say it's one of the few fortunate by-products of homophobic environment. When you fight all of that and it doesn't break you, you come out more resilient, more open-minded, just overall cooler