Is Islam a danger for Western civilization?

[pat grimshaw]

^ "Nailed"?

OK. The problem is solved. We JUBbers don't have to worry anymore.

 

[Adrusek81]

So much for freedom of speech from the wahhabist fanatics loaded with oil... So, Saudi Arabia can finance radical Islamists in Spain, but God forbid anyone dares to criticize Islam, because that is wrong (even if the one who does it is a despicable crypto-Nazi like Geert Wilders).

And these are the people who own some of Europe's most prominent companies, and have made of our continent their second residence thanks to the freedoms we enjoy, and they refuse to allow in their own countries.

Netherlands: Saudi Arabia may curb trade ties over Wilders' anti-Islam slogans

(Reuters) - Saudi Arabia is considering trade sanctions against the Netherlands because of stickers printed by far-right politician Geert Wilders which display anti-Islam slogans in the colors of the Saudi flag, a Dutch foreign ministry spokesman said...

Find the link here.

 

[Telstra]

^ Saudi Arabia should be punished until they let the country build churches, temples ... etc

 

[KaraBulut]

So much for freedom of speech from the wahhabist fanatics loaded with oil... So, Saudi Arabia can finance radical Islamists in Spain, but God forbid anyone dares to criticize Islam, because is wrong...

Islam, like all religions, should be criticized. However, it's unfair to equate Wahhabism with mainstream Islam. The majority of Muslims aren't Wahhabists, just like the majority of Christians aren't Pentecostal and the majority of Jews aren't Hasids.

One of the problems in all three of the Abrahamic religions is that the moderates are getting less and less interested in their religions because of the increase in Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism thrives on poverty, poorly educated populations and when more moderate denominations die out- even when the conservatism and fundamentalism is financed by very wealthy patrons (which is true of all three religions).

^ Saudi Arabia should be punished until they let the country build churches, temples ... etc

Sure. Work on getting rid all all plastics in your home, converting your electrical appliances to run off coal or hydroelectric sources, replace your car with a horse and buggy, etc. You may have to move though- Australia imports over a 1/3 of its oil from the middle east.

 

[Telstra]

I'm talking about fairness, the Saudis are allowed to build mosques in other countries, therefore other counties should be allowed to build temples, churches ... etc in Saudi Arabia.

 

[bankside]

I'm talking about fairness, the Saudis are allowed to build mosques in other countries, therefore other counties should be allowed to build temples, churches ... etc in Saudi Arabia.

The thing is, if my country banned mosques until Saudi Arabia built churches, it would not punish the Saudis, but my fellow Canadians who wish to attend a mosque. I'd love to see them all close, and be turned into museums like the Hagia Sophia. But I don't have any reason to make them illegal.

 

[Telstra]

The thing is, if my country banned mosques until Saudi Arabia built churches, it would not punish the Saudis, but my fellow Canadians who wish to attend a mosque. I'd love to see them all close, and be turned into museums like the Hagia Sophia. But I don't have any reason to make them illegal.

Let them assimilate into the culture is fair and reasonable thing to do because they want to live in a non Islamic country. For myself, I would want to assimilate into the culture i move to live in.

 

[mikey3000]

Yet another terrorist attack in China by Islamic extremists.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/21/world/asia/china-xinjiang-explosions/index.html

And Happiness is obscene and banned in Iran.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/happy-iranian-youth-video-dancers-freed-a-day-after-arrest-1.2649268

 

[bankside]

Let them assimilate into the culture is fair and reasonable thing to do because they want to live in a non Islamic country. For myself, I would want to assimilate into the culture i move to live in.

But the way to assimilate into the culture of my country is to not give a shit whether the neighbours go to a church on the weekend or a mosque or a gurdwara or a shul.

 

[KaraBulut]

I'm talking about fairness, the Saudis are allowed to build mosques in other countries, therefore other counties should be allowed to build temples, churches ... etc in Saudi Arabia.

It's far worse than that, Telstra. The reason that there are no Christian churches or Jewish synogues in Saudia Arabia is that non-Muslims can't be citizens in Saudia Arabia.

There's a large population of Christians, Hindus and Jews in Saudia Arabia- almost all are foreign workers in international companies and in the country's healthcare system. Many of those workers are citizens of the US, Canada and the Philippines and they're not really supposed to be practicing their religion (although in fairness, the Saudis look the other way as long as it is done in private homes or in foreign government buildings like military bases and embassies). Saudia Arabia is not a hot tourist spot, so most people don't go there unless it's for business and it's not a place that anyone would want to be a permanent resident of- it's a miserable hot humid place with a big gap between the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor. Non-muslims go there, make a lot of tax-free income and get the hell out as soon as they can.

But that's what xenophobia and fundamentalism leads to- intolerance, inequality and a lack of diversity. The Saudis are financing the export of their Wahhabist religion and it's not a good thing.

 

[Kulindahr]

But the way to assimilate into the culture of my country is to not give a shit whether the neighbours go to a church on the weekend or a mosque or a gurdwara or a shul.

Exactly. Changing religion to assimilate is something that happens, but expecting it is contrary to the principles of liberty -- which means that if you expect others to change their religion to fit in, you're the one who isn't assimilated.

 

[Adrusek81]

And more news from that "modern, enterprising and cosmopolitan" place that is Qatar! However, we should remember that Christians did it 200 years ago, so that means that Muslims are VICTIMS (by the way, let's forget about the fact that MANY prominent people within Christianity furiously denounced slavery - something that doesn't happen among Muslims).

Inside the Qatar 2022 World Cup slave camps: Squalor, fear and death for the workers building football theatres of dreams.

HELLHOLE conditions see young migrant workers dying from heart attacks and heat exhaustion in world's richest country.

THE horrific conditions of workers building the 2022 World Cup facilities in Qatar can be revealed today.

We secretly toured the camps where thousands of immigrant workers are living in misery, squalor and fear in the Gulf state.

Find the link here.

As for that "paradise of tolerance" that is Dubai... Enjoy your tolerance!

Dubai: Bling, Bling, Ferraris and Slavery

Athiraman Kannan took off his shoes and laid them on the carpet. It was cool, pleasant and fragrant as perpetual sun lashed the tinted windows of the Burj Al Khalifa. Next he smashed the air vent and started crawling through the twists and turns. He was 148 floors above the city.

Hot wind howled through the vent and savage heat made mince of air conditioning. Through the metal slats of the vent, Dubai spread out before him. From this height he would have seen an absurd desert, its vast spires of Mammonic endeavour and tucked away somewhere in the distance his own tin-shed shanty.

 

[Adrusek81]

It's far worse than that, Telstra. The reason that there are no Christian churches or Jewish synogues in Saudia Arabia is that non-Muslims can't be citizens in Saudia Arabia.

There's a large population of Christians, Hindus and Jews in Saudia Arabia- almost all are foreign workers in international companies and in the country's healthcare system. Many of those workers are citizens of the US, Canada and the Philippines and they're not really supposed to be practicing their religion (although in fairness, the Saudis look the other way as long as it is done in private homes or in foreign government buildings like military bases and embassies). Saudia Arabia is not a hot tourist spot, so most people don't go there unless it's for business and it's not a place that anyone would want to be a permanent resident of- it's a miserable hot humid place with a big gap between the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor. Non-muslims go there, make a lot of tax-free income and get the hell out as soon as they can.

But that's what xenophobia and fundamentalism leads to- intolerance, inequality and a lack of diversity. The Saudis are financing the export of their Wahhabist religion and it's not a good thing.

Thank you for saying that. It would be important to note that NOT all Muslims adhere to the wahhabist doctrine, but Saudi Arabia has more than enough resources to spread their message across the world, especially if we take into account that we are more dependent on oil than ever. Still, how tolerant should we be of extremism? Should we accept it as something inevitable, or try to find alternative means of integrating and accepting Muslims so that they won't be driven to religion as an only source of solace in brutally hostile host countries?

 

[Kulindahr]

And more news from that "modern, enterprising and cosmopolitan" place that is Qatar! However, we should remember that Christians did it 200 years ago, so that means that Muslims are VICTIMS (by the way, let's forget about the fact that MANY prominent people within Christianity furiously denounced slavery - something that doesn't happen among Muslims).



Find the link here.

As for that "paradise of tolerance" that is Dubai... Enjoy your tolerance!

That's far more about the fact that everyone over there, especially those in power, are barely a step out of the iron age, than anything else. Tribalism rules, and promises to anyone outside the tribe don't count.

 

[Adrusek81]

That's far more about the fact that everyone over there, especially those in power, are barely a step out of the iron age, than anything else. Tribalism rules, and promises to anyone outside the tribe don't count.

I strongly disagree with your view. Those people have substituted a strong sense of tribalism with a strong sense of class and a good dose of racism. While horror stories about the way in which Arabian peninsula royalty behave in Europe abound (no woman and good-looking young man is safe from their harassment, humiliations and physical assaults), it's also true that they don't dare to go to the extremes shown in those articles with Caucasian people. It's also true that these people are funding a massive propaganda apparatus to normalize their primitivism and radical take on Islam. They have simply gone from being illiterate bedouins tp becoming corporate plutocrats, even though they appear to give a particularly sinister tinge to the term "class war".

 

[bankside]

The Enlightenment, on which civilisation is based, was not a Christian project. It was an intellectual movement that began to question the hegemonic religious authority in our daily lives, and paved the way for recognition of the rights of the individual. While it does not displace certain moderate forms of christianity, it does not depend on them for its ideas. In countries historically dominated by muslim theocracies, the Enlightenment made it farthest in Turkey, to mutual advantage.

 

[Telstra]

Well, is it fair if someone make a thread about Saudi Arabia and keep criticizing it until it change its behavior ? Fair or not and why ?

 

[LilBit]

(by the way, let's forget about the fact that MANY prominent people within Christianity furiously denounced slavery - something that doesn't happen among Muslims)

Horsepocky. I have American Muslim friends who work very hard to fight human trafficking.

 

[nafhoosier]

Christians are welcome to speak out against Christianity and it's extremists in this country.

Why don't I see American Muslims or American Muslim Organizations doing this? Anybody have any links to official statements from Muslim organizations condemning terrorism overseas in places like Russia, Israel, and India (countries that many people view as 'imperialistic')? Would like to see some examples... doubt anyone will find any!

 

[KaraBulut]

Should we accept it as something inevitable, or try to find alternative means of integrating and accepting Muslims so that they won't be driven to religion as an only source of solace in brutally hostile host countries?

There's a tipping point that is always reached on these things. Western Europe had it's own bloody history with the Roman Catholic church, the legacy of which has been increasing secularization and a rise in non-practicing Christians.

Islamic culture peaked several centuries ago and it hasn't really recovered from the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They're in their own version of the Dark Ages and is up to moderate and liberal Muslims to tamp down the fundamentalists. Unfortunately it's not the moderates who have the money at the moment. And their own denominational divisions have been their undoing for some time now.

That's far more about the fact that everyone over there, especially those in power, are barely a step out of the iron age, than anything else. Tribalism rules, and promises to anyone outside the tribe don't count.

That's painting with too broad of a brush. It's like saying that all Americans are like people portrayed in Deliverance. Every country has a segment of poorly educated and backwards people. Middle eastern countries are no different. But they are well out of the iron age. In poor countries there's an irrational mix of the modern and the ancient and they often have the same distorted priorities as the rest of the world- they're more likely to have a cell phone even though they don't have indoor plumbing.

Well, is it fair if someone make a thread about Saudi Arabia and keep criticizing it until it change its behavior ? Fair or not and why ?

It's their country, so why should the change their behavior? Their export of fundamentalist and their underwriting of fundamentalist madrasas in other countries is another matter- that could and should be stopped. But unfortunately, only other Muslims can stop it- their governments are dependent upon Saudi money and Saudi oil.