Is Islam a danger for Western civilization?

[LilBit]

Christians are welcome to speak out against Christianity and it's extremists in this country.

Why don't I see American Muslims or American Muslim Organizations doing this? Anybody have any links to official statements from Muslim organizations condemning terrorism overseas in places like Russia, Israel, and India (countries that many people view as 'imperialistic')? Would like to see some examples... doubt anyone will find any!

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

A quick Google search could provide plenty of other examples.

 

[Telstra]

There's a tipping point that is always reached on these things. Western Europe had it's own bloody history with the Roman Catholic church, the legacy of which has been increasing secularization and a rise in non-practicing Christians.

Islamic culture peaked several centuries ago and it hasn't really recovered from the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They're in their own version of the Dark Ages and is up to moderate and liberal Muslims to tamp down the fundamentalists. Unfortunately it's not the moderates who have the money at the moment. And their own denominational divisions have been their undoing for some time now.



That's painting with too broad of a brush. It's like saying that all Americans are like people portrayed in Deliverance. Every country has a segment of poorly educated and backwards people. Middle eastern countries are no different. But they are well out of the iron age. In poor countries there's an irrational mix of the modern and the ancient and they often have the same distorted priorities as the rest of the world- they're more likely to have a cell phone even though they don't have indoor plumbing.




It's their country, so why should the change their behavior? Their export of fundamentalist and their underwriting of fundamentalist madrasas in other countries is another matter- that could and should be stopped. But unfortunately, only other Muslims can stop it- their governments are dependent upon Saudi money and Saudi oil.

If one believe in human rights, there is no such thing as their country in terms of human rights.
And yes their exports of Islamist should always be criticized until their ears bleeds.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's their country, so why should the change their behavior? Their export of fundamentalist and their underwriting of fundamentalist madrasas in other countries is another matter- that could and should be stopped. But unfortunately, only other Muslims can stop it- their governments are dependent upon Saudi money and Saudi oil.

The same reason bigots in this country should change their behavior.

 

[KaraBulut]

The same reason bigots in this country should change their behavior.

What's the Bible verse? "Something like Why do you look at the spot of dust in your brother's eye? But you do not see a big stick in your own eye?"

The reason that the Saudis will probably not change anytime soon is that the average Saudi is relatively happy. The surveys that have been done over the past 20 years or so say that Saudis rank above most of Europe and Asia on all measures of happiness.

One of the reasons that Saudia Arabia survives in this manner is that they are largely a socialized welfare state where most of the citizens have a comfortable life based upon government welfare and stipends. The stipends vary- anywhere from $700 for the lower tier of people up to $200,000 a month for Al-Saud family members. The inequality is one of the most common complaints but most citizens overall feel that there is a good social safety net. From their viewpoint, they have stable families, their children well cared for, their healthcare is free, their education is free, they pay no taxes, cost of living is low (there are lots of subsidies on many items) and they feel safe.

Westerners look at the Sauds and say, "Oh, what a terrible country" but the Sauds are happy. Because of the socialized welfare system, they don't have a reason to change. If the billions of dollars that pour into the Saudi economy from oil exports were to dry up, there would be a major upheaval in the society there but until then, change will come very slowly.

Some of the things that human rights organizations criticize the Sauds for are valid. It's a terrible place to be a foreign worker and non-citizens who encounter the Saudi criminal justice system are treated very poorly. But honestly, the Saudi kafala isn't much worse than the US immigration system. Most of the complaints of the Saudi foreign worker system have to do with how companies treat the workers, not how the government treats foreign workers.

In an earlier post, I made a distinction between Sharia's rules around marriage/family versus Sharia's rules around justice. The Saudi system is a good example of why Sharia is a terrible way to conduct justice. Saudi Arabia has a very weak criminal justice code, so judges are free to mete out punishment as they please. Some use Sharia and others just make up punishment based upon a whim. This is why there's so many stories about beatings and unfair imprisonment. Tradition has been that the Qur'an and Sharia are a criminal code, so they never really formalized a penal code based upon law in the way we understand it in the West.

Don't expect the US to pressure the Saudis to change- the US still considers the Sauds a key ally in the middle east; they know that if they are too aggressive, the Sauds will take their money and oil elsewhere; and it's a little hypocritical for the US to criticize the Saudis over things like the social inequality and the death penalty when the US has the same stick in their on many of these issues.

 

[Kulindahr]

What's the Bible verse? "Something like Why do you look at the spot of dust in your brother's eye? But you do not see a big stick in your own eye?"

The reason that the Saudis will probably not change anytime soon is that the average Saudi is relatively happy. The surveys that have been done over the past 20 years or so say that Saudis rank above most of Europe and Asia on all measures of happiness.

One of the reasons that Saudia Arabia survives in this manner is that they are largely a socialized welfare state where most of the citizens have a comfortable life based upon government welfare and stipends. The stipends vary- anywhere from $700 for the lower tier of people up to $200,000 a month for Al-Saud family members. The inequality is one of the most common complaints but most citizens overall feel that there is a good social safety net. From their viewpoint, they have stable families, their children well cared for, their healthcare is free, their education is free, they pay no taxes, cost of living is low (there are lots of subsidies on many items) and they feel safe.

Westerners look at the Sauds and say, "Oh, what a terrible country" but the Sauds are happy. Because of the socialized welfare system, they don't have a reason to change. If the billions of dollars that pour into the Saudi economy from oil exports were to dry up, there would be a major upheaval in the society there but until then, change will come very slowly.

Some of the things that human rights organizations criticize the Sauds for are valid. It's a terrible place to be a foreign worker and non-citizens who encounter the Saudi criminal justice system are treated very poorly. But honestly, the Saudi kafala isn't much worse than the US immigration system. Most of the complaints of the Saudi foreign worker system have to do with how companies treat the workers, not how the government treats foreign workers.

In an earlier post, I made a distinction between Sharia's rules around marriage/family versus Sharia's rules around justice. The Saudi system is a good example of why Sharia is a terrible way to conduct justice. Saudi Arabia has a very weak criminal justice code, so judges are free to mete out punishment as they please. Some use Sharia and others just make up punishment based upon a whim. This is why there's so many stories about beatings and unfair imprisonment. Tradition has been that the Qur'an and Sharia are a criminal code, so they never really formalized a penal code based upon law in the way we understand it in the West.

Don't expect the US to pressure the Saudis to change- the US still considers the Sauds a key ally in the middle east; they know that if they are too aggressive, the Sauds will take their money and oil elsewhere; and it's a little hypocritical for the US to criticize the Saudis over things like the social inequality and the death penalty when the US has the same stick in their on many of these issues.

True enough. Though I suspect we could get the Saudis to change somewhat, toward a sort of Magna Carta step. It wouldn't be much, but the notion of shared power is critical to any concept of liberty and equality.

 

[bankside]

True enough. Though I suspect we could get the Saudis to change somewhat, toward a sort of Magna Carta step. It wouldn't be much, but the notion of shared power is critical to any concept of liberty and equality.

The Saudis should be given the option that was given to the royal houses of both England and Russia. They can pick which they prefer.

 

[pat grimshaw]

Milad Bin Ahmad-Shah al-Ahmadzai, 24, a thief and a terrorist.

Two days ago he refused to recognise state law because he believes in his own sharia law

'I’m gonna slit your throat pig' 'I’m gonna crack your neck”

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...-due-to-religion/story-fnii5s3x-1226929228808

 

[pat grimshaw]

The mother said—If my son were gay, I would have killed him with my own hands.

The mother said—I shot him. He has brought shame upon us.

The father, Metin Çiçek shot his 17 year old son Roşin in the head and left his bloodied body by the road on the outskirts of the town.

Metin Çiçek and his two brothers Şeyhmus and Mehmet are now in the third month of their prison sentence for their honour killing in Diyarbakır.

 

[pat grimshaw]

^ * Transcription Error. It was the father who shot the son.

 

[mikey3000]

Interesting... View the quick video.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/05/k...hall-conquer-rome-and-andalusia-allah-willing

 

[pat grimshaw]

^


That man is only interested in bloodshed.

 

[Kulindahr]

The Saudis should be given the option that was given to the royal houses of both England and Russia. They can pick which they prefer.

The route the Russians went would lead to violence. The one in England cannot be done overnight.

 

[Kulindahr]

Milad Bin Ahmad-Shah al-Ahmadzai, 24,....

Two days ago he refused to recognise state law because he believes in his own sharia law

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...-due-to-religion/story-fnii5s3x-1226929228808

The article does not support your claim.

 

[pat grimshaw]

The article does not ..

You can make any supposition you want but it doesn't stop Milad Bin Ahmad-Shah al-Ahmadzai threatening people in the street and shooting at his tribal enemies in the street.

…350 shootings …

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-home-for-caring/story-fni0cx12-1226867041490

 

[KaraBulut]

Did the big bad brown man with the beard scare you?

 

[rareboy]

You can make any supposition you want but it doesn't stop Milad Bin Ahmad-Shah al-Ahmadzai threatening people in the street and shooting at his tribal enemies in the street.

…350 shootings …

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-home-for-caring/story-fni0cx12-1226867041490

I would think that the idea of Muslims killing one another in the street would make you pop a huge chub.

Like the white advocates for black on black violence in the US....this would seem to be a win-win for you?

 

[pat grimshaw]

^



Silly person didn't see the news article which says an innocent man was

killed in the (inter-tribal) crossfire

 

[KaraBulut]

^ Silly person didn't see the news article which says an innocent man was crossfire

Where to begin?
1. The man who was shot in the crossfire (Graeme Hunt) didn't die. He survived but is seriously injured and may not walk again. Hunt is not Muslim- he's Anglo. Which tribe was he part of?

2. The man who did die, Rhynal Nand, was being robbed. He wasn't caught in the crossfire. He was the target of the robbery. He is not Muslim- Nand is an Indian surname. Which tribe was he part of?

3. The men arrested for the shooting have the surnames Chami, Chaouk and Hariri which are Lebanses-Syrian surnames. Judging from the articles about the shooting, they appear to be ordinary criminals with a history of robberies and other street crimes. There's not mention of tribes or Islam in the articles.

Doesn't really fit in with your narrative of Islam being a threat to Western Civilization.

If you are concerned about gang violence, something that you might be interested in:

 

[rareboy]

Bodies of Three Men Found in Elliot Rodger's Home as More Details of Santa Barbara Shooter's Life Emerge

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/05/three-bodies-found-in-elliot-rodgers-home.html

So explain to me how we can extrapolate from this event that Islam is an existential threat....Because it seems to have about the same randomness and degree of relevance as the cases that Grimshaw keeps pushing as 'proof' that Sharia law is resulting in murderous mayhem.

 

[KaraBulut]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/05/three-bodies-found-in-elliot-rodgers-home.html

So explain to me how we can extrapolate from this event that Islam is an existential threat....Because it seems to have about the same randomness and degree of relevance as the cases that Grimshaw keeps pushing as 'proof' that Sharia law is resulting in murderous mayhem.

We got shootings, right here in Isla Vista... that starts with "Isla"... which rhymes with "Islam"....