is NATO still relevant?

[Kulindahr]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, there we go. Hypocrisy. Thank you for an honest answer.

So, I will say it again, thanks but no thanks.

You support Saudi Arabia, bomb Libya... You pay and trainee Osama Bin Laden, then he becomes your enemy No1... I am sick and tired of your dirty games and set ups

As long as you indulge in this "set up" fantasy, you're not credible.

And I'm sure the people of Libya are happy to know you oppose their freedom.


BTW, I don't "support" Saudi Arabia; I've thought since the early 80s that they should have been transitioning to a constitutional monarchy. But I understand the government's dilemma.

 

[JayHawk]

I just want to say again, I see no reason for several states in Europe not to spend that 2% of GDP on defense, and it is right when Secretary Gates calls us out for it. A strong NATO is in all our interests after all. And we have to compensate at least a part of the eventual cutbacks in the US military. But some of the hostility here surprises me. European states had generous social safety nets for quite some time, it was even a deliberate countermeasure to the social policies of the East European countries, which shared borders with us after all. Remember the words of one of your own generals: "There is no choice between being a communist on 1,500 calories a day and a believer in democracy on 1000 calories" (Lucius D. Clay) So we have had them for a long time, even when we spent much more on defense. And for example here in Germany our welfare systems are definitely less generous than they where before. So saying that we reduced our defense spending to "build/develop generous social safety nets" is a baseless claim. In my eyes this destroys an otherwise quite valid argument, that some NATO members are not fulfilling the (informal) commitments they made.

Yeah and to be honest I have no idea how it got here. Sometimes I respond to the vitriol with some of my own. But of course we as posters allow the thread to go one way or another. Sometimes what is said makes me angry beyond belief and that usually when I simply click the X and do something else. But every so often I respond.

You would have to admit that the social nets are a huge burden for your countries? I wish we carried such a burden for our people. Or at a minimum did what Singapore did and look at all the rest and then build the best health care system in the world. They only spend 3% of GDP on the system and 66% of that is private. I sincerely wish our feuding and stupidity would get out of the way for an effective program like that.

For the record I think Europe will eventually work thru the growing pains of becoming united and thereby will become a world power over the next century or two. Don't forget forging a United States took a civil war. I doubt it will get that far in Europe. However, currently the combination is so dissimilar in policy and culture that it seems impossible. However I think it will come off easily with time and some shrewd leadership. Europe and something in Africa as yet to be formed will be the dominant forces in about 2-3 centuries. China will have imploded upon itself and we will eventually fade of we cant reverse our trend to not educate thoroughly every child and continue to rely upon intelligence from outside our borders. We of course wont be around unless you believe in heaven or reincarnation.

Hmmm I think I have wondered amazingly off topic.

 

[Kulindahr]

. . . . we will eventually fade of we cant reverse our trend to not educate thoroughly every child and continue to rely upon intelligence from outside our borders.

It wouldn't hurt if we'd stop telling people from overseas who come here for advanced degrees they can't stay once they've finished their work. Every year, thousands of brilliant people who earn degrees at US universities and want to stay are booted. It's idiocy!

 

[zelenabanana]

As long as you indulge in this "set up" fantasy, you're not credible.

And I'm sure the people of Libya are happy to know you oppose their freedom.


BTW, I don't "support" Saudi Arabia; I've thought since the early 80s that they should have been transitioning to a constitutional monarchy. But I understand the government's dilemma.

As long as you deny those set ups, you are not serious.

I am sure those 9 civilians killed yesterday by NATO "mistake" are so happy NATO hit their civilian building for their "happiness". RIP you poor people, victims of SET UPS and "HELP"

BTW, I do fantasy that NATO makes "mistakes" as well. During bombing of Serbia NATO made "mistakes" bombing civilians, hospitals, houses, schools, markets, but also Chinese Embassy. Still NATO would never mistake and mix PRS with UK or US Embassy, right buddy?

As one man up wrote, military lobby is so happy with these set upped fires and bankers are more happy you are the only one to be fire-men. I am sick and tired of your set ups and "helps". Sick and tired.

About Saudi Arabia... no matter what you think (and in this case you think right, ) it shows hypocrisy and dirtiness of your politics! Aren't you sick and tired of that? Rise up your voice.

 

[zelenabanana]

NOPE but PSSS the new I am gonna change it guy determined that it wasn't as bad as was made out to be politically and he kept it. But you go live on your own planet.

Kuli is correct with Saudi Arabia. And if you think politicl friends arent driven by other resource or economic means then again welcome to planet Zelen

Is it pretty telling that you have NOTHING to say regarding the brutal genocide in your own country. I suppose you thought Hitler was a Euro problem and we shoulda stayed outta that one too?

After Two world wars based off the fact that Europe had no idea how to deal with Europe and you thought somehow we were just gnna let you people do it again.

Get real. Demand justice in your own country and then play like adults with one another (and no adults don't kill other ethnicities simply because of their God)

But at least while it is for all the wrong reasons you have one thing right, NATO is past its prime especially now that Europe wants to be a quasi US by combining their currency and economic power.

Now if they would just stand behind one another fully and join forces militarily then we will have to renegotiate NATO in any event since a new entity with it's own rules is the result.

BTW this is out of sheer boredom. Your been spouting the same talking points for a long time on here.

Genocide in my country? Where? Serbia has the same % of national minorities in 1991 and 2001. Serbia is the only in the region which kept national minorities diversity. On the other hand:
Croatia had 13% of Serbs, today just 3%. Ethnical cleansing?
Before civil war in Bosnia Sarajevo was the 3rd biggest Serb populated city after Belgrade and Novi Sad. Sarajevo has 33% of Serbs, today just 3-4%. Ethnical cleansing?
And so on...

About the USA... I met one English guy in Novi Sad hostel and he was telling to me that his friends was affraid for him coming to Serbia, but after all he had great fun... and we had talked about narrow minded people stuck to what BBC or CNN say and so on and then came the topic about Serbia and UK / US allies in WWs and he said "Let USA out... my dad was telling to me, they had just watched own asses and didn't want to help UK... They started to care when Japan hit their ass"... Point is, even some English see your help in WW so poor.

Yes, no adult burn Quran, just American soldiers do in front of nude Muslim humilated prisoners and then response not in the court.
Nobody rape little Iraqi girls, except US soldiers and response not...

If the USA is so great and innocent, why you still haven't signed and ratificated International Court or Rome Statute? ROFL... com on, be brave, sign it. Then I think there won't be enough space in prisons for your guilty ones

After all the USA time is going with the wind. China and east take the power. Soon we might see Clinton on trial for crimes against humanity. Would be great.

 

[zelenabanana]

^It's pretty obvious Zelenabanana is a Slav of some kind.

Zelena, if my memory serves me correctly: weren't the Serbs the ones who attacked first?

Whom? When you say, I'll give you the answer. Or in a row.

Slovenia and Croatia started separatism from the Federal Yugoslav state and own para militar forces against Yugoslav Constitution and UN Chapter (i.e. imagine Mexicans to take guns and start separation of US federation. Nice?). Croats started brutally in 1991. that they even had burnt birth house of Serb scientist Nikola Tesla and the near by Serbian orthodox church Milutin Tesla, his dad, was Serbian priest in. That's about start in there.

In Bosnia it started when Muslims killed Serb broom and bride in centre of Sarajevo and with this:
http://blip.tv/sonnet1815/dobrovoljacka-street-the-tragic-death-of-yugoslav-people-s-army-dobrovoljacka-street-the-tragic-death-of-yugoslav-people-s-army-4625093

About Kosovo Albanians they did riots and attempt of separatism even back to 1970ies while Tito was alive (Tito was Sloveno-Croat and gave them maximum of rights, forbide to Serbs to come back after WW2 even Serbs were driven out by Albanians who were allies of Hitler...). Back to that time there was not Milosevic and those mainstream media set ups abt bad Serbs.

Anymore questions m8?

 

[zelenabanana]

BTW, here's the one of the boys you still support

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udWxUgXETdI

Keep be hypocritical

You have forgot the ally Serbia from WW1 and WW2. Keep it... Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians are coming there to set you up

While Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians keep coming to USA and do terrorism, Serbs brought just goods to the USA : Nikola Tesla, Vlade Divac, Milla Jovovic, Karl Malden, George Vojinovich, Brad Dexter, Peja Stojakovic, Peter Bogdanovic, Sasha Alexander, Mihajlo Pupin, etc

Keep supporting terrorists and be against people who did good to you and was your ally in WWs.

It's sad, money takes your heart.

 

[JayHawk]

It wouldn't hurt if we'd stop telling people from overseas who come here for advanced degrees they can't stay once they've finished their work. Every year, thousands of brilliant people who earn degrees at US universities and want to stay are booted. It's idiocy!

Again our sound bite politics stupidity overides common sense.

 

[JayHawk]

Genocide in my country? Where? Serbia has the same % of national minorities in 1991 and 2001. Serbia is the only in the region which kept national minorities diversity. On the other hand:
Croatia had 13% of Serbs, today just 3%. Ethnical cleansing?
Before civil war in Bosnia Sarajevo was the 3rd biggest Serb populated city after Belgrade and Novi Sad. Sarajevo has 33% of Serbs, today just 3-4%. Ethnical cleansing?
And so on...

About the USA... I met one English guy in Novi Sad hostel and he was telling to me that his friends was affraid for him coming to Serbia, but after all he had great fun... and we had talked about narrow minded people stuck to what BBC or CNN say and so on and then came the topic about Serbia and UK / US allies in WWs and he said "Let USA out... my dad was telling to me, they had just watched own asses and didn't want to help UK... They started to care when Japan hit their ass"... Point is, even some English see your help in WW so poor.

Yes, no adult burn Quran, just American soldiers do in front of nude Muslim humilated prisoners and then response not in the court.
Nobody rape little Iraqi girls, except US soldiers and response not...

If the USA is so great and innocent, why you still haven't signed and ratificated International Court or Rome Statute? ROFL... com on, be brave, sign it. Then I think there won't be enough space in prisons for your guilty ones

After all the USA time is going with the wind. China and east take the power. Soon we might see Clinton on trial for crimes against humanity. Would be great.

The false sound bite politics you speak? The emanate from your own mouth. I would address each point but you have been blathering the same nonsense since you arrived here. So it would be a pointless endeavor. Maybe you and Alex Jones could put on your tin foil hats and have a prayer meeting?

I have a G6 to catch for now so you gotta wait. You know so we Americans can contribute to global warming in keeping with our supreme evil intents.

 

[rareboy]

Zelena,

Let it go.

We get that you are a passionate Serb.

But you are a caricature of the Slavs.....nursing your hurts and desire for vengeance for generation after generation....hating your neighbours although you are all the same people with the same basic desires for peace and prosperity.

For heaven's sakes grow up. You've all had 2000 years to do it.

The Serbs do not have clean hands. The Croats do not have clean hands. The Bosnians do not have clean hands, The Albanians do not have clean hands.

You all would be far better off to create a peace and reconciliation effort and then get on with creating a stable and prosperous organization of states that make the best use of the spectacular resources and beauty of this area.

And stop manufacturing other demons and other states to blame.

Okey Dokey?

 

[zelenabanana]

BTW what do you say of repeating NATO scenario and "mistakes" with civilian victims. 2 days ago NATO hit apartment building and has killed 9 civilians, yesterday NATO killed 15 civilians and among them 3 kids... In Serbia NATO killed thousands of civilians, all by "mistakes". As "mistakenly" Chinese Embassy was hit. NATO must invest into more sophisticated weapons... Talibans hit more precisely. ROFL.

 

[zelenabanana]

The Serbs do not have clean hands. The Croats do not have clean hands. The Bosnians do not have clean hands, The Albanians do not have clean hands.

Just one corection... there's no Bosnians as nation... there are Serbs in Bosnia and islamized Serbs of which the most feel as Muslims or Bosniaks... so I bet you mean no Muslims have clean hands. ANd you are right... while CNN pointed i.e. that just Serbs are to blame, no matter there were wars between Croats and Muslims as well.

And NATO bombed just Serbs, twice. In 1995. Bosnian Serbs and in 1999. Serbia and Montenegro.

But this is not just about Serbs, but about NATO to go to the past and NATO leaders to be on trials for war crimes and crimes against humanity as well as for agressions as not Serbia nor Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya attacked any NATO member states and NATO is defend organization. Right?

 

[Kulindahr]

BTW what do you say of repeating NATO scenario and "mistakes" with civilian victims. 2 days ago NATO hit apartment building and has killed 9 civilians, yesterday NATO killed 15 civilians and among them 3 kids... In Serbia NATO killed thousands of civilians, all by "mistakes". As "mistakenly" Chinese Embassy was hit. NATO must invest into more sophisticated weapons... Talibans hit more precisely. ROFL.

Given your twisted view of the world, unless you provide sound sources, I'm going to assume you're probably reading Ghaddaffi's lies and propaganda.

 

[zelenabanana]

Aha, so no matter NATO just have admitted that has HIT APARTMENT BUILDING AND KILLED CIVILIANS, it is Gadaffi's propaganda. Good.

However I still remember the bombing of Serbia and NATO LIES AND PROPAGANDA. Especially pathetic lies when they hit Chinese Embassy, how their maps of Belgrade were old. ROFL! ROFL ROFL LMAO! Fortunately US and UK Embasies were updated on a map. My God.... Gadaffi's propaganda and lies while they are pure good and speak all but the truth... like Billy ...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs[/ame]

How sweet They never lie ROFL!

And brutal lier finally admits

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPxwKS12TXE&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPxwKS12TXE&feature=relmfu[/ame]

 

[zelenabanana]

Now a bit of NATO lies and propaganda...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V968a_vBBAk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V968a_vBBAk[/ame]

 

[zelenabanana]

If you will watch this foreign video, you will see how NATO lied and tried to blame Serbs for their "mistakes". NATO is propaganda!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4xOJ4LhaY&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4xOJ4LhaY&feature=related[/ame]

 

[zelenabanana]

German documentary film

Few years ago Schroeder said twice in gap period, NATO bombing of Serbia was a "dead mistake"... too late man...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI4kz8CSYmA&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI4kz8CSYmA&feature=related[/ame]

 

[zelenabanana]

Now in the part 2 we see this maybe Gebel's cousin lieing as much as Gebels did

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeRXLw4nUhI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeRXLw4nUhI&feature=related[/ame]

 

[zelenabanana]

So, how has propaganda? Seems NATO lies more than too much and problem is NATO start war and kill people based on brutal lies...

 

[zelenabanana]

This one is good... when NATO turned killed terrorists into civilian victims,... and kept that lie as top secret. Who lie? NATO LIES!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kuhfyd6bJs&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kuhfyd6bJs&feature=related[/ame]