Libya, Bradley Manning and Human Rights

[BostonPirate]

^Manning remains innocent until proven otherwise.

Manning's lawyer is an American who has no reason to lie about the conditions under which Manning is being held.

Justice must be seen to be done. This includes humane treatment of a prisoner awaiting trial.

Psychological torture of a prisoner remanded awaiting trial is in direct opposition to the values that the United States broadcasts to the world.

Of course he has a reason to lie. He wants to generate sympathy for a traitor before a trial in hopes congressional oversight will step in.

Something tells me the house republicans are not going to be following this one closely.

They are too busy waiting to see if Obama farts and whether he broke laws or broke wind.

Surely you don't think or expect US to think that a lawyer wouldn't lie to help his client?

 

[Lostlover]

^Manning remains innocent until proven otherwise.

Manning's lawyer is an American who has no reason to lie about the conditions under which Manning is being held.

Justice must be seen to be done. This includes humane treatment of a prisoner awaiting trial.

Psychological torture of a prisoner remanded awaiting trial is in direct opposition to the values that the United States broadcasts to the world.

The lawyer has no reason to lie? The biggest problem he has is Americans not giving a damn about the case (which most don't) and his client becoming a pariah. If he were to portray the lipless bastard as a victim, he could garner some sympathy.

He has every reason to lie. I'm sure if they polled most Americans they wouldn't know who Bradley Manning is. And those that did would want him executed by the military tribunal (me included).

Again, Dear American Government: if I ever steal your shit and give it to foreigners, you can give me Bradley Manning's treatment.

 

[bankside]

A lawyer has responsibilities before the bar regarding honesty, etc. Of course some lawyers fail in those responsibilities.

But I find it laughable that people can easily imagine the defence lawyer to be lying, but not a government. Of course the military has motives to lye about Manning's treatment, and a lot of those motives are not noble.

 

[hotatlboi]

Either you grant human rights to everyone or you abolish them immediately.

Agreed.

However...

The said they just forced him to sleep naked. They aren't taking away any dignity imo. Plenty of people sleep naked.

They said he has a mattress with a built-in pillow (previous reports said he had no pillow) and a blanket. So he is covered.

Now was it necessary to make him sleep naked? Maybe not. But it doesn't amount to a human rights violation imo. If they had him parade around naked so that other prisoners could laugh at him, then it would be a different story.

 

[Lostlover]

A lawyer has responsibilities before the bar regarding honesty, etc. Of course some lawyers fail in those responsibilities.

But I find it laughable that people can easily imagine the defence lawyer to be lying, but not a government. Of course the military has motives to lye about Manning's treatment, and a lot of those motives are not noble.

Sure. The defense lawyer is trying to save his client's life. The military lawyer will still have a job afterwards.

 

[bankside]

Sure. The defense lawyer is trying to save his client's life. The military lawyer will still have a job afterwards.

By the way, I meant "lie" of course.

Do you think that lawyer will have a job if he doesn't lie?

 

[Kulindahr]

Given the way the military handled the Abu Graib affair, I'd trust them to tell the truth only when there are cameras on them with a signal being broadcast out where they can't get at it.

 

[BostonPirate]

By the way, I meant "lie" of course.

Do you think that lawyer will have a job if he doesn't lie?

I think there is no lawyer in america that would not make a subjective judgement to throw his client in the light that he needs to be in to get a judge or jury connect to him as a person, and not a mindless traitor.

I think quite a few lawyers would exagerate with NO problem whatsoever if they truly believed they were doing the right thing or needed an ego win.

hotatlboi's post just above shows that is probably most likely what has happened.

The guy is in some deep shit and he is in the brig. It's not a good place to be.

Is he guilty? Dunno. It seems that way, but I have seen little evidence in either direction. If hes innocent, his lawyer isn't promoting that message well.

 

[Corny]

If they had him parade around naked so that other prisoners could laugh at him, then it would be a different story.

he has to be nude during the morning appeal with the other prisoners, too.

the geneva convention, which has been ratified by the US and is therefore the law of the land, is explicit and categorical in banning "humiliating and degrading treatment" against a detainee "at any time and in any place whatsoever."

Who knows how many have been killed because of him and his Wikileaks friends.

still - not a single person.

 

[BostonPirate]

Americans are very harsh on traitors. We always have been.

Benedict Arnold is still reviled to this day for his actions. Little kids learn about him in school as an example of what unamerican behavior and traitors are and how we respond to them.

There are many things about the Euro culture that are equally unappealing to americans.

 

[Corny]

hate your traitors as much as you want. but don't sign documents where you promise to treat your prisons like human beings when you don't intend to stick to it.

and don't go around and blame other lunatics for torturing the "enemies of state" from his view - when you do the same to yours.

this kind of hypocrisy is why so many states and people around the world hate the US. i wonder if you will ever get that ..

 

[Kulindahr]

he has to be nude during the morning appeal with the other prisoners, too.

the geneva convention, which has been ratified by the US and is therefore the law of the land, is explicit and categorical in banning "humiliating and degrading treatment" against a detainee "at any time and in any place whatsoever."

Being kept nude is not an anti-suicide treatment. Any place that deals in prisoners has non-rip "suicide smocks" for clothing. They're not the most comfortable things in the world --

but they are warm, and while they're a bit humiliating if only because everyone else knows you've got a screw loose, the humiliation isn't deliberate.

There are "inmate security blankets" as well, quite sturdy and warm, though the stiffness means they don't drape well over a body.


So any required nudity in front of others is nothing but deliberate humiliation, a violation of law and convention.

Obama should be terminating some careers.

 

[BostonPirate]

hate your traitors as much as you want. but don't sign documents where you promise to treat your prisons like human beings when you don't intend to stick to it.

and don't go around and blame other lunatics for torturing the "enemies of state" from his view - when you do the same to yours.

this kind of hypocrisy is why so many states and people around the world hate the US. i wonder if you will ever get that ..

Agreed. If bush and Cheney hadn't made torture a national black eye, we would not have to answer to these charges.

For a long time, we have been warning Bush and then Obama, that torture and a failure to prosecute those that did it would hamper american efforts in a host of unexpected ways.

This is one of them.

Corny, you come from a culture that has a maximum allowable punishment of what ten year? for the greater crime of High treason?

Landesverrat would get you one to five. That is unthinkable here.

I don't think that there are enough substantiated reports of treatment that amounts to torture to compel your average american to feel sorry for the guy. We are trying to rebuild our international relationships in a post Bush America, and mannings actions hampered and in some places detroyed two years of hard work that Sec Clinton has made and the entire state dept has been dedicated to.

He doesn't need a TV in his cell or even a pillow. Its not torture to not have a pillow. Making the guy go before a judge naked?

I simply don't believe that is true.

Sorry.

 

[hotatlboi]

he has to be nude during the morning appeal with the other prisoners, too.

No, he is not with any other prisoners. The prison is designed such that no cell has a line of sight to another.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/05/AR2011030503624.html

He has to pass an inspection in the morning and then he gets his clothes back. Basically, a strip search. That happens all the time in prison. In fact, when you first report to prison the very first thing that happens is that you are strip searched to verify you are not bringing anything dangerous into the prison. Pretty standard procedures for prison.

 

[Kulindahr]

hate your traitors as much as you want. but don't sign documents where you promise to treat your prisons like human beings when you don't intend to stick to it.

and don't go around and blame other lunatics for torturing the "enemies of state" from his view - when you do the same to yours.

this kind of hypocrisy is why so many states and people around the world hate the US. i wonder if you will ever get that ..

It's endemic to 'evangelical Christianity' in the U.S., a disease where they preach about the Gospel -- forgiveness, love, mercy -- but their lives say "LAW" -- rules requirements, judgment, condemnation -- loud and clear. When Law dominates your life, while you consider yourself righteous, the rules are something for everyone else; for you, the rules are tools, and if someone in your way isn't following them, you're not required to, either.

The attitude has bled into large portions of the population besides evangelicals, because that self-righteous legalism was well settled before there were a full thirteen colonies. It's an integral part of most reactionary movements, but the U.S., with the Puritan and other self-righteous Law-oriented heritage, it's become elevated almost to an art form.

The astounding and tragic thin is that these are the same people who denounce Islam as evil because Mohammed said treaties with "infidels" only have to be honored so long as convenient.

 

[kallipolis]

This "Guardian" article clearly states that Manning is receiving extra special punitive treatment.

I quote a paragraph referencing the comments of those contributors who have emphasised the need for a so called suicide watch.

I remind people that this soldier has publicly declared him self, gay. I wonder whether this fact of life has also been factored into his inhumane treatment by the military authorities. We know how much love the United States Army has for queers wearing a military uniform?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/11/stripped-naked-bradley-manning-prison

quote

Sixteen separate entries made from 27 August until the records stop on 28 January show that Manning was evaluated by prison psychiatrists who found he was not a danger to himself and should be removed from the PoI order.

unquote

 

[Kulindahr]

It's torture -- there's no other possible conclusion.

Obama should be accused at the World Court.

 

[Corny]

from that article:

He also describes the experience of being stripped naked at night and made to stand for parade in the nude, a condition that continues to this day. "The guard told me to stand at parade rest, with my hands behind my back and my legs spaced shoulder-width apart. I stood at parade rest for about three minutes … The [brig supervisor] and the other guards walked past my cell. He looked at me, paused for a moment, then continued to the next cell. I was incredibly embarrassed at having all these people stare at me naked."

reads like one of those guantanamo reports ...

geneva conventions my ass. traitor or not, this is a shame for any civilized country.

 

[kallipolis]

A United States, State Department spokesman P J Crowley said the US treatment of the man accused of leaking secret cables to Wikileaks, is "ridiculous and counter productive and stupid."

I wonder whether any one in the United States, Department of Defence was listening, or even cares?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12717275

 

[Stardreamer]

Pretty much everything described is a handling procedure used for high risk security prisoners or prisoners on suicide watch. The one hour a day exercise and solitary confinement is standard practice for a inmate that is either a risk to or in danger from the general population. In this case the later, given the charges if he were exposed to the general population in a military prison, he would be dead in days.

The rest are various steps taken for suicide watch but the it seems like they are laying on everything really thick. If he really is suicidal it could be justified but I think the situation needs an independent look to make sure the administration of the facility is pushing the issue for their own purposes.

Remember he is a military prisoner. Judging from the folks I work with particularly with the army and intel folks, there is no love for this guy. Especially with the all the new troubles that are coming down as a result of his acts that is making folks with security clearances lives harder.