Maintaining Your Friendship with a "Snow Queen"

[DiamondSkin]

You understand little about the subtle interpersonal dynamics of black, gay male multi-year friendships, and I am trying to enlighten you (no pun intended).

Oh, I understand it. However unlike you, I don't have a bias towards one end. You clearly do.

When your black friend began to prefer dating white men, you used this occurance as a springboard to start judging him as a 'snow queen' and sought to seek evidence of this stereotype. Evidence that may not have been there in the first place.

For example, I don't like mainstream rap. When I professed this to my black friends, they automatically assumed I wasn't 'black enough' nor did I like 'black culture'. Since they sought to find more 'evidence' to support this ridiculous assumption.

It's a common occurrence of group-think in the black community where black persons are so desperate to keep their black identity and culture in a world that's increasingly becoming mixed and blurred.

Black identity was extremely powerful and useful in the decades past in the years of slavery and segregation. Black music, black art, black literature and black culture in general was integral to being a black person. This was since passed on for generations. The most important part of being black was being black enough.

However in the present, with a half-black president no doubt, more and more black persons are drifting the rigid codes of black culture and treating their being black as simply having a skin tone of darker pigment.

I think you're possibly misreading your friends disinterest in black culture or misgivings of black culture as being interally racist. Something I don't agree with.

And you are wrong to state "being gay in the black community is a no-no. You are stereotyping the black community that I know, love; that has accepted and nurtured me throughout my life.

That's absolutely true!

That's why the 98% of black voters in California voted NO on Proposition 8....oh wait that didn't happen....


Well in Washington D.C., the black community came together to support gay rights in....oh wait, the opposite happened. They actually protested gay rights.....

No, sweetie. The black community is notorious for having homophobia rampant.

That's why gay black men practically invented the 'down low' and that's why gay black men are 10 tens more likely to have HIV than any other race in America.

In D.C., one in THREE black people have HIV. That's ridiculous.

It's beatitiful to be gay and black and to recognize that beauty in brothers who share your history and core identity. I'm just curious to find out why some of our "brothers" are drifting from that mutuality.

Which just confirms, my suspicions that you don't think your friend is being 'black enough'?

Did he speak out against something that you view as integral to black culture I wonder?

You define your race as your core identity and an enormous part of who you are. Which is fine. Gay people do that too. They define being gay as an enormous part of who they are.

But just like there are gay people who think that liking their own gender is just a small part of who they are, there an increasing amount of African-Americans who feel that being black doesn't mean they have to be intergrated into what some see as substantive black culture.

More and more black people are viewing their black skin as just that: black skin and nothing more.

Something I think was helped by the election of Obama.

 

[DiamondSkin]

He's given ambiguous examples like "he's said some things." or "you can just tell." He hasn't given a specific situation where something happened and then given his reaction afterwards. But that's also what I've been waiting for this whole thread from him.

Agreed.

What most likely happened is that his African-American friend professed a strong inclination for white men of blonde hair and blue eyes.

Whether the OP conciously knew it or not, it created an instant bias against his friend and it made him search for reasons why his friend was suddenly hating on his own racial identity.

It's a group-think that has been passed down for generations to black children.

It's imperative that a black person must prove his 'blackness' by a number of hurdles including dating.

Which is why we never see black stars or comedians speak out against mainstream rap as being overtly sexist and violent.

It's political suicide.

For a black person not to like mainstream rap, they must hate black people, no?

That's why Bill Cosby got absolutely hammered when he spoke out against it.

 

[DiamondSkin]

From my understanding of Babi's OP, the issue he had with his friend wasn't that he preferred to only date white guys but his friend had taken a liking in bashing and disparaging his own race and culture. And that's what I addressed earlier in the thread, not his friend's dating habits. You know, I can care less about all of that. What I find troubling in general (and have always found troubling) is the disdain some gay blacks have for their own race, they don't even have to date white guys and it's prevalent. My point was (and has been from the start) if you don't like or appreciate where you come from then how in the world do you get off in getting upset at a white guy for not liking you either? It doesn't make sense to me.

I've never seen a 'disdain' for some gay black men in dating their own race. If it exists, I've never seen or heard of it even with my gay black friends.

If it DOES exist, I don't think it's do to self-racial hatred I think it's due to the prevalent problem of homophobia in the black community that frowns on homosexuals.

Hell, many black leaders think that there's no such thing as a gay black man and it's only a white problem.

Which is why we have a severe lack of prominent gay black leaders in the gay community in politics and media. Hell, we only have Noah's Arc for christ's sake.

It's also why the black community has such a problem with the 'down low' which they pracitically coined and have the highest rate of HIV transmission due to high-risk sexual behavior.

I think for a gay black man looking for another gay black man it can be very discouraging for him when he knows that 1 in 5 black males in America have HIV. When so many gay black men refuse to acknowledge their own homosexuality and label themselves as a 'straight man who has sex with men' and the rampant emphasis of being 'macho' and 'thug-like' where overt heterosexualism is a prominent part of the hip-hop culture that young black people revere and idolize.

Young gay black men have no role models. The only gay role models are white.

Is it any mystery that there are black gay men who may prefer to date white men after this fact?

If we had more gay black role models in the black community and black culture, I think we could definitely see a change.

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>Well hot damn! Dude! I'm gonna bake you some cookies! What kind do you want?

Nilla wafers. Duh.

Lex

 

[DiamondSkin]

And the white community isn't? Please everytime someone uses that lame Prop 8 black vote as an example, they automatically lose all credibility in my book when it's time for them to say something else. You're being too disingenuous with that one.

The white community isn't nearly as group-think and synomyous as the black community.

In fact there IS no white community. They're a mix of Irish, Polish, Italian, etc. who all have their own agendas.

However, how many black Republicans are there? How many black people DIDN'T vote for Barack Obama? How many black people think there SHOULDN'T be affirmative action.

A white person does not have a 'white' identity nor 'white' culture. He isn't thinking about it.

However a black person can become obsessed with 'black' culture and having a 'black' identity because it's how they were raised.

If a black leader says to vote for someone, 98% of black people will likely do so. They vote as a colony and a community no matter where they are.

However white people don't think in terms of 'white'. They don't have a 'white' culture. It doesn't exist.

Which is why many white people voted for and against Prop. 8. They voted on their own agendas.

However a few black religious leaders said to vote for Prop. 8, and 98% of black people voted for it.

That says something.

 

[VenomGGXX]

First off, I wasn't labelling anyone else a snow queen but Venom and only used that term b/c he used a derogatory term to refer to me first.

Such as?

You are gay moe. You have no right to be judging me when you can't even date a black WOMAN. So take your black pride BS to the cleaners


To be honest, I don't like Moe because I said I hated emo white bitches who don't like black guys. And then Moe just went batshit and said I deserved to be rejected and that I deserve no sympathy. Moe is fake and needs to get his act together. QUICK

 

[DiamondSkin]

Uh oh! Looks like the oreos are getting their nickers in a bunch. The snow queens are mad as h-e-double-hocky-sticks and they're not gonna take it anymore! The nerve of anyone to question their "preferences." If they wanna spit shine a white mans boots hoping to prove themselves worthy of being able to advance to licking his balls, then gosh golly darn...that's their right as [STRIKE]emancipated coloreds[/STRIKE]...proud black men!

What in peanut butter and jelly are you talking about...?

Speak sense, man.

The age of the Black Panthers is about 25 years dead, sir.

 

[VenomGGXX]

Yeah, you're really showing your black pride by making fun of other black guys who like to be more open minded. I'm not an uncle tom, but even if I was, it's better than being a fake person like you moe.

I'm done arguing with this bitch, he can laugh to himself all night long, and then do some beyonce moves

 

[Jayden]

Whats an uncle tom?

 

[VenomGGXX]

I really shouldn't feed trolls. (like Moe and Neo) This always happens to me online.

 

[VenomGGXX]

SHut the fuck up MOE, how about that? No one gives a shit about your drama queen rants.

 

[VenomGGXX]

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Whatever. You win. I'll just put you on ignore!
k thnx bai

 

[hotatlboi]

Agreed. A common problem in the black community is the overt racism (which they don't THINK is racism) and the tendency to make sure they are 'black enough' to 'belong' in the black community.

Which is why they strongly favor dating inside their race. If you date outside their race, you must have racial self-loathing because you prefer black people you must hate black people and thus hate yourself.

What ironic about gay black people decrying 'snow queens' as a insult to their being 'blackness' is that being gay is the EPITOME of going against the black community.

Being black and gay just doesn't mesh in the black community it's the reason why so many gay/bi black men go on the down low.

One problem I encountered from my black friends is my dislike for mainstream rap. As a half-black man, if I dislike mainstream rap, I must be inwardly racist because it's a part of black culture. A concept I find ridiculous. I just don't like songs about pussies and bling-bling.

I'm not bold enough to say any of this because I'm white and don't want to be called a racist, but I can't disagree with some of this.

 

[irydion]

It might help if you actually read what I said. My friend sleeping with white men is not what derailed our friendship. It was the derision he continually showed towards black culture and other black men.

your rant about your friend started with the sex with white guys issue, and it was put on equal level with lack of socialising with black people and alleged disdain for blacks. Of course, later in the thread, you denied that this was a problem, but only after it came under criticisement. Yes, I've simplified what you've written, but you yourself shouldn't deny that your original post complained about this matter as well.

You've said that he's done much for the black community. Actions are more important than words. And verbal criticisement is not necessarily an attack. He apparently believes that black community is heading nowhere, right? There are a lot of people who'd say that about their own communities, and I would see it more as sign of caring for their communities, than hating them. When you find that your community is heading the way that is not good for it... A certain polish politician in XIX century said "you can do something for Poles, but never - with Poles".

TygreBryte, good question. Many ambitious, career-driven black men do have a social conscience that leads then to support, even champion, economic and social causes, which benefit the black community. But they still prefer to surround themselves, personally, with white friends and acquaintances, and exclusively date white partners because, at some other level, they see other blacks as "poor relations," in the literal and figurative sense. They want to move on and up, into the "white world" and throw something back for the negros down below, but they don't want to be personally associated with anyone who reminds them of those negros down below.

what do you expect. To mantain their status, they must meet with other men of their new sphere, who happen to be white. But by that, they are opening ways for new black people who wish to go there. With time, there will be more black people that shall make a career, and the problem will lessen. If it is also a wish to blend in, it's natural as well. Not to mention that you can't expect their rase to be as important for them as it is for you.

 

[Wtrain]

I don't know where to begin, or even if i want to.

Stating that, your former friend belittling his own people should have been the focal point to this thread - his dating patterns are IRRELEVANT. If the comparison if supposed to be that black men that don't date their own become like that guy, you're quite off base.

I'm going back to my corner now, feel free to address this or have that yapping dog call me some silly little acronym.

Good question....... that no one has seem to been able to answer.

 

[bankside]

Well, look at OJ Simpson (a stroight guy). Until he got into trouble the first time, he ditched most of his black friends, went to diction class to drop his African-American Vernacular English, etc.

I believe Michael Jackson did this, too, but I could be wrong—he was a hard guy to figure out.

Bankside, you can often tell when a guy's trying to be white.

I don't know Simpson's history, but everybody in Hollywood goes to diction class, black or white. Arnold Schwarzenegger did it, and he's pretty white. Also, with more equality and more money for further education, African-American Vernacular English will be replaced just like Cockney English in the UK.

Michael Jackson is definitely hard to figure out.

 

[bankside]

Frankly elvin, it seems many people are scarcely interested in conversing with someone who has a mindset, a world view, or values different from their own.

That is a necessary precondition for friendship.

In the case of this thread, if those conversations had taken place between the OP and the friend, then the poster would know why the mindset is different, why the world view is different, why the values are different. When you understand your friends you can continue with them, even when you disagree.

If those conversations had not happened, then the result for that friendship would be very much like the impasse we see in this thread. I think the one situation is a microcosm of the other, and it has developed for the same reasons.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

your rant about your friend started with the sex with white guys issue, and it was put on equal level with lack of socialising with black people and alleged disdain for blacks. Of course, later in the thread, you denied that this was a problem, but only after it came under criticisement. Yes, I've simplified what you've written, but you yourself shouldn't deny that your original post complained about this matter as well.

You've said that he's done much for the black community. Actions are more important than words. And verbal criticisement is not necessarily an attack. He apparently believes that black community is heading nowhere, right? There are a lot of people who'd say that about their own communities, and I would see it more as sign of caring for their communities, than hating them. When you find that your community is heading the way that is not good for it... A certain polish politician in XIX century said "you can do something for Poles, but never - with Poles".



what do you expect. To mantain their status, they must meet with other men of their new sphere, who happen to be white. But by that, they are opening ways for new black people who wish to go there. With time, there will be more black people that shall make a career, and the problem will lessen. If it is also a wish to blend in, it's natural as well. Not to mention that you can't expect their rase to be as important for them as it is for you.

irydion, you really have to learn how to follow a narrative and connect the dots that I have painted.

I spoke, at the outset of a progressive pattern of behavior and attitude that I observed and experienced, intimately, with this former acquaintance. It began with a sexual and social fixation on white men and and concluded with a general distaste, on his part, for his own people and community.

I regularly associate with many professionally successful black men and MOST love who they are and reference what they like about themselves in others who resemble them. My former friend has chosen a decidedly different path for himself. He worships white men like gods and has a low opinion of other black men, regardless of their accomplishments and relative attributes.

There's a lot more to this story, and his conduct, which I haven't detailed. But you get the picture?

 

[BabiGayPimp]

Frankly elvin, it seems many people are scarcely interested in conversing with someone who has a mindset, a world view, or values different from their own.

That is a necessary precondition for friendship.

In the case of this thread, if those conversations had taken place between the OP and the friend, then the poster would know why the mindset is different, why the world view is different, why the values are different. When you understand your friends you can continue with them, even when you disagree.

If those conversations had not happened, then the result for that friendship would be very much like the impasse we see in this thread. I think the one situation is a microcosm of the other, and it has developed for the same reasons.

You haven't been reading closely. This is a man that I experienced a very close friendship with for several years. I understand his mindset. I know the man. He genuinely feels that white people are a better grade of human product than black people. He never said that explicity, but through many years of conversations and close observations, that is my finding.

When someone you deal with socially is continually praising the "greatness" of this white man and that white man while being dismissive and outright rude towards other black men, and you see this pattern escalate over the years, he's telling you something that you can't but hear.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

God, this is a minefield of a thread. Almost didn't post in it.

But here goes:

I can't imagine only hanging out with people who have the same interests/mindset/values/world view as mine. I wouldn't learn shit. Diversity is a great thing. Who wants to go through life without challenges? I don't.

And why should you care what color person he dates? How does it affect you? It sounds pretty racist and ignorant to me. It's kind of hypocritcal too. What if someone stopped being your friend because you are black or gay? Wouldn't that piss you off? I'm pretty sure it would. I know it would piss me off.

When a man believes that his own people are an inferior human product and voices that to you in so many ways and in so many instances, It would be hypocritical to think that tolerance calls for putting up with such nonsense, or that the friendship is salvageable.

This has NEVER been about his dating white men. From the rooter to the tooter, this has been about his looking down on his own people, which I witnessed direct evidence of.