Mass shooting at Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Florida: Political Discussion [SPLIT]

[eastofeden]

Now, if they'd been allowed to be armed, but chosen not to, it would be their responsibility. Since they weren't allowed to be, the responsibility is on those who took away their choice.

Wow.....their responsibility for being shot?

I am stunned at how many people want to make this about something else....

As I said in the other thread...my heart is broken....and there are no words really...just tears....

 

[Kulindahr]

That's true. Since it is basically the same rifle, it only takes a very small piece of metal to convert it to the full auto military version.

Of course that's illegal but still easy to do for anyone that is experienced with firearms.

But even in single shot mode, an experienced operator can achieve a fairly rapid rate of fire because of the low weight, low recoil, and easy trigger mechanism.

Or the removal of a small amount of metal, if you know what you're doing (I had an old worn .22 that became auto-capable just by holding the trigger right -- friends thought it was awesome, but I didn't like my single-shot rifle being able to do more than a single-shot, so I fixed it).


This reminds me, though: how the frak did this barbarian get an AR into the club? They aren't exactly concealable...... and from the accounts, he was already inside with his weapon before acting.

 

[hotatlboi]

It's lethality is lower than many bolt-action hunting rifles.

This is deceptive. If you are talking about delivering a single round into a deer from a distance, then yeah there are plenty of hunting rifles that pack greater energy and will bring down that deer easier. However such rifles are not the optimal weapon for rapidly taking out many targets in close quarters, since they have a longer barrel requiring more effort to aim, are heavier, and have greater recoil, all elements that are better optimized in assault rifles like the AR for close quarters combat.

 

[Kulindahr]

Wow.....their responsibility for being shot?

I am stunned at how many people want to make this about something else....

As I said in the other thread...my heart is broken....and there are no words really...just tears....

If you know there are bad guys, and you take no steps to take care of yourself should they strike where you are, yes, what happens is your responsibility. It's no different than driving on the freeway knowing your car's brakes could go at any time.

But they weren't allowed that choice, so the responsibility falls on those who required them to be defenseless.

 

[Kulindahr]

This is deceptive. If you are talking about delivering a single round into a deer from a distance, then yeah there are plenty of hunting rifles that pack greater energy and will bring down that deer easier. However such rifles are not the optimal weapon for rapidly taking out many targets in close quarters, since they have a longer barrel requiring more effort to aim, are heavier, and have greater recoil, all elements that are better optimized in assault rifles like the AR for close quarters combat.

Once again: the AR-15 is not an assault rifle.

And it is optimized not for close-quarters combat, but for all ranges -- deer hunters use them to take down bucks at 200 yards with great reliability.


But that's beside the fact that had staff been armed -- had they been ALLOWED to be armed -- there would not have been fifty deaths. A guy with an AR-15 is an easy target, and isn't going to stand against three or four trained people for more than a dozen seconds.

The killer chose to make people dead. But the politicians chose to make it possible for him to make so many dead.

 

[eastofeden]

If you know there are bad guys, and you take no steps to take care of yourself should they strike where you are, yes, what happens is your responsibility. It's no different than driving on the freeway knowing your car's brakes could go at any time.

But they weren't allowed that choice, so the responsibility falls on those who required them to be defenseless.

I will say one thing ....

THE ONLY PERSON "RESPONSIBLE" IS THE FUCKING PERSON WHO MURDERED THEM.....

 

[hotatlboi]

The killer chose to make people dead. But the politicians chose to make it possible for him to make so many dead.

Once again, allowing patrons to bring guns into nightclubs is a terrible idea.

Having an armed security or police officer on duty is a much better option. That's what the club does here.

 

[Kulindahr]

I will say one thing ....

THE ONLY PERSON "RESPONSIBLE" IS THE FUCKING PERSON WHO MURDERED THEM.....

Responsibility is not an arithmetic-blame situation.

There are bad guys in the world. There are Islamic freaks who think gays should die. Someone was responsible for seeing that gays were protected, and in this country that means that gays are responsible (since the police have no duty to protect any specific people). But they weren't allowed to act on that, so the people who took away their ability to act are responsible.

If only the criminals are responsible, then why do we have police? Because it's someone's responsibility to stand up to the criminals. Specifically, it's every person's responsibility to do so; we just assign some of that to the police and hope it reduces our personal responsibility.

If your position is valid, then there's really no such thing as personal responsibility; we're all just the property of whoever wants to act against us. America used to stand for personal responsibility -- you're being part of the movement to destroy that.

 

[Kulindahr]

Once again, allowing patrons to bring guns into nightclubs is a terrible idea.

Having an armed security or police officer on duty is a much better option. That's what the club does here.

According to some reports, that club also had one. He was one of the first shot.

The only way to deter is to not let a killer know who is his nemesis.


BTW, allowing drunk people to have guns is a terrible idea. That doesn't define all patrons at a night club, and had definitely better not include the staff!

 

[hotatlboi]

According to some reports, that club also had one. He was one of the first shot.

The only way to deter is to not let a killer know who is his nemesis.

BTW, allowing drunk people to have guns is a terrible idea. That doesn't define all patrons at a night club, and had definitely better not include the staff!

There's a reason why we have open container laws in addition to banning drunk driving. If you are in a car and there is an open container of alcohol, the chances that there will be drinking and driving increase somewhat. If patrons are carrying guns into night clubs, the chances of drunk people carrying guns increases quite a bit. This is not hard to understand logically.

 

[eastofeden]

Religion of Peace...my ass. This guy was invited to speak in Orlando...so the fucking Muslims who are offering their "support" are full of shit.....

 

[Alnitak]

Religion of Peace...my ass. This guy was invited to speak in Orlando...so the fucking Muslims who are offering their "support" are full of shit.....

Well we know it isn't. Jihad is the primary reason why Islam spread like wildfire. Were it not for Charles Martel we would all be on prayer rugs.

 

[Kulindahr]

Religion of Peace...my ass. This guy was invited to speak in Orlando...so the fucking Muslims who are offering their "support" are full of shit.....

With regard to such animals...

Death is the sentence. There is no reason to be embarrassed about this.


Query, though: are the Mulsims who are offering their support the same as the morons who invited this animal to speak?

 

[Mariatenebre]

you can not say Americans involvement in middle east conflict did not cause in ANY some way shape or form for this person to become radicalized.

we need FEWER wars NOT MORE

Actually Muslims were murdering gays, infidels etc and stealing land in jihad long before America was even around. Islam has always been a extremist religion.

Also I actually agree with Kulindahr I think that all LGBT people should arm themselves. These gays should have had guns so they could send said camel piss drinker to Tartarus.

 

[Sausy]

Whoa, guys.. pull it back a little. As there are some people where any kind of bringing up of the subject of radical Islamic component of terror causes them upset and they foolishly attack as racist and informed by bigotry, there is the danger of damning Muslims as a whole. There are many religious fundamentalists... Muslim but also as we see plenty of, Christians... Jews, Hindus as well , who are bigoted and intolerant.. but also many who are most certainly not. There are plenty of American Muslims, and those worldwide, who stand by us and denounce those who are hateful, and would cause us harm without a thought or care. Hate is hate, and breeds overreaction and more strife. It's a fucking circle of senselessness, and it's gotta end.

 

[Kabluey]

Agree that the hate talk about Muslim people is toxic. Don't want to spur anyone to act similarly against innocent Muslim people either.

As for Kuli, we know he's passionate about his guns, Kuli, if we don't agree with you about measures around gun safety in peaceful times, you're not going to convince us in times like this.

 

[frankfrank]

This is proof that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have good guys with guns -- but most of the good guys, thanks to gun-control foolishness, were disarmed.

If some of the employees had been armed and trained, the response by the good guys would not be delayed by bureaucratic procedure that way; they could have seen the shooter and ended things

Now, if they'd been allowed to be armed...Since they weren't allowed to be

Um...doesn't Florida have its Stand Your Ground laws and, actually, perhaps the least-restrictive gun laws among the U. S. states?

Also, I thought I heard they DID have an armed person situated inside the Club, but that didn't really do anything to stop the shooting, and I thought I heard somewhere that he was shot/injured(?) early in the chain of events. There are conflicting reports, though I admit I don't hear as many conflicting reports from this as I usually do from horrific man-made tragedies. (Think of NineOneOne, already so many years ago, when initial reports were saying there were more than 11,000 killed.)

 

[Mariatenebre]

Whoa, guys.. pull it back a little. As there are some people where any kind of bringing up of the subject of radical Islamic component of terror causes them upset and they foolishly attack as racist and informed by bigotry, there is the danger of damning Muslims as a whole. There are many religious fundamentalists... Muslim but also as we see plenty of, Christians... Jews, Hindus as well , who are bigoted and intolerant.. but also many who are most certainly not. There are plenty of American Muslims, and those worldwide, who stand by us and denounce those who are hateful, and would cause us harm without a thought or care. Hate is hate, and breeds overreaction and more strife. It's a fucking circle of senselessness, and it's gotta end.

Actually criticizing Islam is not racism as Islam is an ideology not a race. No one calls you a racist if you criticize Christianity. Further more I am not amending all Muslims as evil but Islam is a toxic and homophobic ideology. Now as for religion itself most non Abrahamic religions are not homophobic. It is basically the Abrahamic and Zoroastrian religions that are the ideological founts of homophobia and transphobia.

 

[kallipolis]

This report reveals something of the fucked up character of the murderer:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36513468

I quote:

His ex-wife, Sitora Yusufiy, has said that he was violent and mentally unstable and had beaten her repeatedly.

The pair married in Fort Pierce in 2009 after meeting online, but her parents intervened and removed her from their home just months later after learning of his abuse.

"He was not a stable person," she told the Washington Post. "He beat me. He would just come home and start beating me up because the laundry wasn't finished or something like that."

She told the newspaper that Mateen had not been very religious when she was with him and he had regularly exercised at the gym. She said he had owned a small-calibre handgun and worked as a guard at a nearby facility for juvenile delinquents.

Speaking to reporters later on Sunday, Ms Yusufiy said Mateen was bi-polar and although some commentators were trying to link his actions to IS or religion, the real cause was mental illness.

The couple divorced in 2011.

 

[kallipolis]

Here's better news from LA of a would be assassin apprehended before he could commit a massacre.

Note that the person arrested has an Anglo name.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...rsenal-weapons

I quote:

Police in Los Angeles have detained a man who was laden with guns and explosive materials on his way to the LA Pride festival.

Police found three assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, ammunition and a five-gallon bucket with chemicals capable of forming an improvised explosive device, said police spokesman Saul Rodriguez said.