Minimum wage... pick a number.

[peeonme]

@peonme

But change is the only constant in... everything. I'd rather have change than stagnation. And we must change with the world.

Take coal country, for example. Everybody knows the energy sector hs been moving away from coal for decades. Instead of adapting to the change, coal miners insist on remaining coal miners. They'd rather sit their asses where they are and starve. They elected a man who promised to bring coal back. How is that working out for them?

When my oldest brother graduated highschool and went to college, the tech industry couldn't find enough computer programmers. He got his degree in programming and got half a dozen job offers even before he graduated college. By the time my second brother went to college, the tech industry had an overabundance of programmers. So he majored in engineering and got a job straight out of college. Then when it was my turn, I wanted to be a researcher. Unfortunately for me, the crash killed off a lot of findings for research right when I was about to graduate. So, I did an emergency gearswitch and was able to find a job in IT out of college.

We know plenty of people who did not change and adapt and ended up never being able to utilize their degrees. I even know one guy who graduated with me in comp science with a 3.9 GPA but ended up working stocking shelves at walmart. Why? He did not want to move out of his small town.

The world changes. That's a given. You either change with it and adapt or you vote for Donald Trump and his false promises.

The world has been changing, the interesting part is which way it is going. The trend has been a downward spiral for workers and an upward increase in income for the wealthy.
I might point out that this is not about the world. It is about the minimum wage in the USA. It is not about Trump or coal. It is about a manipulation in the labor market by the wealthy that keeps the working poor from being upwardly mobile.

 

[Dominus]

The world has been changing, the interesting part is which way it is going. The trend has been a downward spiral for workers and an upward increase in income for the wealthy.
I might point out that this is not about the world. It is about the minimum wage in the USA. It is not about Trump or coal. It is about a manipulation in the labor market by the wealthy that keeps the working poor from being upwardly mobile.

Whether you like it or not, it has everything to do with DT and the fact that the republicans currently controls all 3 branches of the government. Good luck raising the minimum wage in this political climate.

Even though I don't support the $15 min wage, I don't oppose it either. It really does not affect me at all and I simply don't think it will do anything at all to help lift the poor out of poverty.

Regarding the bolded portion, this simply is not my observation or the observation of anyone else in my family. All I know is we started out with nothing in the early 90s and now we have 2 executives in the family. I had a business a few years back that failed miserably because of some mistakes I made. When my business failed, I was up to my eyeballs with debt. I didn't blame anyone but myself for having taken some shortcuts that wasn't very wise. Just started another one with a lot more caution this time and a solid plan.


I don't consider myself wealthy... yet. I do know plenty of people who are successful and are pretty darn wealthy. They are a lot more approachable than most people think. What I have found is successful people really really want other people to be successful. They celebrate success. They want people to explore their full potential. Sure, there are crooks and liars in every segment of the population, but I have found that for the most part executives and CEO's are just people like everyone else. There is not this huge conspiracy to suppress the common worker. There just isn't.


I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree with your view at all.

 

[peeonme]

Whether you like it or not, it has everything to do with DT and the fact that the republicans currently controls all 3 branches of the government. Good luck raising the minimum wage in this political climate.

Even though I don't support the $15 min wage, I don't oppose it either. It really does not affect me at all and I simply don't think it will do anything at all to help lift the poor out of poverty.

Regarding the bolded portion, this simply is not my observation or the observation of anyone else in my family. All I know is we started out with nothing in the early 90s and now we have 2 executives in the family. I had a business a few years back that failed miserably because of some mistakes I made. When my business failed, I was up to my eyeballs with debt. I didn't blame anyone but myself for having taken some shortcuts that wasn't very wise. Just started another one with a lot more caution this time and a solid plan.


I don't consider myself wealthy... yet. I do know plenty of people who are successful and are pretty darn wealthy. They are a lot more approachable than most people think. What I have found is successful people really really want other people to be successful. They celebrate success. They want people to explore their full potential. Sure, there are crooks and liars in every segment of the population, but I have found that for the most part executives and CEO's are just people like everyone else. There is not this huge conspiracy to suppress the common worker. There just isn't.


I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree with your view at all.

This trend started long before Trump was elected. Reagan started it with supply side economics. Money has been funneled to the top through tax cuts. Along with that a Democrat signed trade agreements that put millions out of work.

In all reality the law of supply and demand has more to do with wages than anything. Decades ago schools stopped teaching shop class
and most don't have auto mechanic classes. Kids graduate with no skill set, you speak of college a lot. But right now our country has a shortage of plumbers, carpenter, furnace and a/c repair men... just to name a few.
We need to start high school kids that have no ambition to go in to a profession on a path towards a vocation of some type.

With all due respect, this thread wasn't meant to be about you or your family.

 

[Rickrock]

Although $15.00 an hour is a step in right direction, it isn't the total answer. For instance, the cost of living is different in different parts of the country. The spread in wages between the highest and lowest paid employees needs to be reduced. Perhaps there could be laws to regulate how much of a spread in wages there could be between top employees and lower paid ones. Higher incomes should probably be taxed at rates that discourage people from getting excessive pays when others in the company get lower wages. Democracy works best when most people are equal rather than when a few people are rich and most are poor. There is no easy answer, but we need to try better.

 

[Dominus]

This trend started long before Trump was elected. Reagan started it with supply side economics. Money has been funneled to the top through tax cuts. Along with that a Democrat signed trade agreements that put millions out of work.

In all reality the law of supply and demand has more to do with wages than anything. Decades ago schools stopped teaching shop class
and most don't have auto mechanic classes. Kids graduate with no skill set, you speak of college a lot. But right now our country has a shortage of plumbers, carpenter, furnace and a/c repair men... just to name a few.
We need to start high school kids that have no ambition to go in to a profession on a path towards a vocation of some type.

With all due respect, this thread wasn't meant to be about you or your family.

No, this thread isn't about me or my family. I brought us up to make a point that with proper budgeting and discipline anybody can better their life regardless of how much they make.

On the other hand, simply increasing the min wage will do nothing for someone that doesn't know how to properly budget and have no self discipline.

Ok, I'll stop using my family as example. Let's look at another example.

http://www.businessinsider.com/iraq-veteran-on-why-raise-minimum-wage-2015-11

Does anyone actually honest to God believe increasing the min wage will do anything for this guy? He claimed to have leadership skills, yet he never did a thing to better his situation. He claimed to be a "cook" and demanded a raise. Dipping chicken into oil does not make one a real cook. This is on par to fabghetto claiming that waiting tables is a professional job.

 

[Pierresro]

Min of $15.00 per hour!
Of course this willnot happen nationwide under the Nazi some call President!

 

[peeonme]

No, this thread isn't about me or my family. I brought us up to make a point that with proper budgeting and discipline anybody can better their life regardless of how much they make.

On the other hand, simply increasing the min wage will do nothing for someone that doesn't know how to properly budget and have no self discipline.

Ok, I'll stop using my family as example. Let's look at another example.

http://www.businessinsider.com/iraq-veteran-on-why-raise-minimum-wage-2015-11

Does anyone actually honest to God believe increasing the min wage will do anything for this guy? He claimed to have leadership skills, yet he never did a thing to better his situation. He claimed to be a "cook" and demanded a raise. Dipping chicken into oil does not make one a real cook. This is on par to fabghetto claiming that waiting tables is a professional job.

I went to your link and read it and watched the video, I didn't hear or read of him claiming to be a cook. I don't know what his skills are either.
I ask myself 2 questions,
What is a human life worth in America? This practice of adult full time workers receiving minimum wage pay is wrong. In an economy where
90% of the money doesn't end up in the pockets of 1% of the people there would be a greater demand for workers. I don't know what the employment numbers are where this man is at, but I won't assume that he isn't looking for a better job.

The second question is what caused grown men to start working in fast food? Fast food is where us drop outs worked before we turned 18 and could get better money at a factory or start learning a skill in a machine shop. And even then, there was a shortage of workers.
We were at war and had a draft that took many 18 year olds. Also, auto plant where hiring people like crazy, you didn't need to know anyone to get a job at the big three.

Many 18 year olds worked part time and went to college to get a draft deferment, so again full time workers were in short supply. No one that I knew of worked full time for minimum wage.

A shortage of jobs and an too many workers seeking them is what caused grown men to work for this low pay. This was caused by a few things, an influx of immigrants, automation and out sourcing.
We went from a manufacturing based economy so fast that it was like a rug pulled from under the feet of the workers. There was bound to be a transition to cheaper foreign goods but it should have been done slower and been more controlled with transitional training offered to workers.

American workers were left high and dry. Too many workers and too few jobs= low wages. No doubt that we are in a new era, things change very fast. I have known some that basically ended up with obsolete degrees. Who knows what the demand will be in 4 or 5 years?
How does one prepare for an economy that changes so fast?

I would agree with you that some seem to spend money frivolously, I used to live by a guy who worked at KFC, I remember him showing off his new smart phone and his kids wearing clothes that didn't fit.

 

[sixthson]

Much of Aristomaniac's dad advice was solid.
Many of those living on minimum wage are young adults, old enough to be independent but not doing well at it for whatever reason.
Somewhere along the line, they have not prepared or been helped to prepare for their lives as adults. In many cases parents and school have failed them. We can't ignore the fact that some are just not willing to put in the effort to do much of anything, either. They are not going to college or getting a vocational/technical education or finding jobs in fields where they are getting on the job training (an increasingly small field), therefore they are limited
to jobs with no hope for growth or promotion. Even at $15/hour, no one could support a family and should never expect that. Minimum wage is meant to tide someone over until they have prepared themselves for careers or jobs that have potential. Most people are not given a free ride in life, but have to work for everything. It's the reality of life. Ask people who are making $50-75,000 how easy it is to pay a mortgage and raise two children. That might seem like a lot of money when you are making minimum wage, but reality is something else.
I think we really need to raise our children to KNOW they must prepare for life and not just let it happen to them. Bad choices, like having babies before you can afford them, don't have to be fatal, but they do need to be faced realistically and they will further complicate life.

For many other people besides the young adults, minimum wage will always be their reality.

 

[matthewmorris]

Although $15.00 an hour is a step in right direction, it isn't the total answer. For instance, the cost of living is different in different parts of the country. The spread in wages between the highest and lowest paid employees needs to be reduced. Perhaps there could be laws to regulate how much of a spread in wages there could be between top employees and lower paid ones. Higher incomes should probably be taxed at rates that discourage people from getting excessive pays when others in the company get lower wages. Democracy works best when most people are equal rather than when a few people are rich and most are poor. There is no easy answer, but we need to try better.

Exactly, $15 per hour is not the total answer. This is also interesting https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages

 

[Rickrock]

Both unions and employers have gotten too greedy and abused their powers. Of course there are exceptions. Unions are necessary as a counter balance, but if they get greedy that isn't good either.

 

[peeonme]

Much of Aristomaniac's dad advice was solid.
Many of those living on minimum wage are young adults, old enough to be independent but not doing well at it for whatever reason.
Somewhere along the line, they have not prepared or been helped to prepare for their lives as adults. In many cases parents and school have failed them. We can't ignore the fact that some are just not willing to put in the effort to do much of anything, either. They are not going to college or getting a vocational/technical education or finding jobs in fields where they are getting on the job training (an increasingly small field), therefore they are limited
to jobs with no hope for growth or promotion. Even at $15/hour, no one could support a family and should never expect that. Minimum wage is meant to tide someone over until they have prepared themselves for careers or jobs that have potential. Most people are not given a free ride in life, but have to work for everything. It's the reality of life. Ask people who are making $50-75,000 how easy it is to pay a mortgage and raise two children. That might seem like a lot of money when you are making minimum wage, but reality is something else.
I think we really need to raise our children to KNOW they must prepare for life and not just let it happen to them. Bad choices, like having babies before you can afford them, don't have to be fatal, but they do need to be faced realistically and they will further complicate life.

For many other people besides the young adults, minimum wage will always be their reality.

Today 50-75 thousand is not big money, I was in that area of pay in the mid 90's. On top of that my health care was 100% covered.
Even then our son saw me make out a budget every month, I went over it with the family so all understood what was going on and there would be no surprises.
I still to this day do a monthly budget and live by it. I learned this on my own at 16 when I had to work and pay the bills at home. How I came up with it I haven't a clue, it just seemed to be the best way to manage money.

 

[Dominus]

I went to your link and read it and watched the video, I didn't hear or read of him claiming to be a cook. I don't know what his skills are either.
I ask myself 2 questions,
What is a human life worth in America? This practice of adult full time workers receiving minimum wage pay is wrong. In an economy where
90% of the money doesn't end up in the pockets of 1% of the people there would be a greater demand for workers. I don't know what the employment numbers are where this man is at, but I won't assume that he isn't looking for a better job.

The second question is what caused grown men to start working in fast food? Fast food is where us drop outs worked before we turned 18 and could get better money at a factory or start learning a skill in a machine shop. And even then, there was a shortage of workers.
We were at war and had a draft that took many 18 year olds. Also, auto plant where hiring people like crazy, you didn't need to know anyone to get a job at the big three.

Many 18 year olds worked part time and went to college to get a draft deferment, so again full time workers were in short supply. No one that I knew of worked full time for minimum wage.

A shortage of jobs and an too many workers seeking them is what caused grown men to work for this low pay. This was caused by a few things, an influx of immigrants, automation and out sourcing.
We went from a manufacturing based economy so fast that it was like a rug pulled from under the feet of the workers. There was bound to be a transition to cheaper foreign goods but it should have been done slower and been more controlled with transitional training offered to workers.

American workers were left high and dry. Too many workers and too few jobs= low wages. No doubt that we are in a new era, things change very fast. I have known some that basically ended up with obsolete degrees. Who knows what the demand will be in 4 or 5 years?
How does one prepare for an economy that changes so fast?

I would agree with you that some seem to spend money frivolously, I used to live by a guy who worked at KFC, I remember him showing off his new smart phone and his kids wearing clothes that didn't fit.

Wrong article I linked to regarding the cook thing.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...lines-jobs-with-justice-10815&email_subject=t

 

[peeonme]

Wrong article I linked to regarding the cook thing.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...lines-jobs-with-justice-10815&email_subject=t

Now it all comes together. If he wants to move up in life it's time to start thinking about another way to make money. I am for increasing the minimum wage, but in the interim a guy has to try to break in to a line of work that pays better.

 

[Dominus]

I am reminded of the star trek episode where they came to a planet where there was a war between 2 nations for hundreds of years. All virtual, of course. But every time there's casualties, the citizens on each side voluntarily DIE. Kirk pointed out that they have made war painless, so there was no incentive for them to end the war. Hence, it had lasted for hundreds of years.

I know it may sound like a stretch to make the connection. But I do see a connection here.

You know who benefits most from minimum wage type jobs? Kids like my 16 year old nephew. Let's just say his parents are well off enough that he can go to any college in the country and his parents will pay cash for it. Instead of spending his summer playing games like so many other teenagers, he on his own went out and got a job at panda express. He works full time there for the summer. Last time I spoke with his dad, he swore up and down no one told my nephew to go out get a job. He did that entirely on his own.

The minimum wage job is suppose to be a stepping stone for teenagers to learn work ethics. Get to work on time. Do the best job you can. Take pride in your work. Take on responsibilities. Earn money. These are very important life skills that kids need to learn. And trust me, I've tried to help enough poor people to know these skills don't come naturally for a lot of people.

And the fact that these low skill jobs are paid minimally should be incentive enough for these youngsters to better their skills over time and get better jobs.

I worked minimum wage jobs when I was younger. Exactly why I bettered myself over time to move to jobs that paid better.

By forcing businesses to up the pay level of these low skill jobs, you are taking the incentives away for people to try to move up in life. You're making these low skill, low wage jobs into something painless. Why learn a trade if you can put the minimum amount of effort you can get away with and still get paid decent?

At the start of this thread, I was more neutral about this subject. I didn't care much whether the min wage gets increased or not. Now that I've thought about it some more, I am now against raising the min wage.

 

[peeonme]

^^
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, minimum wage was for beginners at one time, those who worked part time.
I always found a new line of work when I had to. I went in to real estate sales at one time and did better than the old guys sitting around the office.

The one thing to remember is that not everyone has the capacity to do skilled work. Like it or not, some are not as smart as others. Today it takes more brains and less muscle to make a living. Those who lack ambition, brains or some kind of talent are feeling the pinch.

 

[tarallucci]

In 1968 at the age of 16 I was paid $2.00 per hour

I was paid that in 2005

 

[Dominus]

^^
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, minimum wage was for beginners at one time, those who worked part time.
I always found a new line of work when I had to. I went in to real estate sales at one time and did better than the old guys sitting around the office.

The one thing to remember is that not everyone has the capacity to do skilled work. Like it or not, some are not as smart as others. Today it takes more brains and less muscle to make a living. Those who lack ambition, brains or some kind of talent are feeling the pinch.

So... life isn't fair? Who knew?

Just as not everybody is cut out to advance beyond minimum wage type jobs, not everybody can become NBA basketball player. Who knew?

No offense, but your argument is starting to sound like the reason we need to raise the min wage is purely charity. I'm sorry, I don't accept this.

Wages should be market based, not what makes us feel good.

 

[peeonme]

So... life isn't fair? Who knew?

Just as not everybody is cut out to advance beyond minimum wage type jobs, not everybody can become NBA basketball player. Who knew?

No offense, but your argument is starting to sound like the reason we need to raise the min wage is purely charity. I'm sorry, I don't accept this.

Wages should be market based, not what makes us feel good.

Are there no prisons? Are there no work houses? I promised myself that I would never forget what it was like to live pat check to pay check. One reason is so I will never lose compassion for my fellow man. Life may not be fair, we play the hand that we are dealt. That doesn't mean that the deck should be stacked.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Thirty dollars/hour

 

[Dominus]

Are there no prisons? Are there no work houses? I promised myself that I would never forget what it was like to live pat check to pay check. One reason is so I will never lose compassion for my fellow man. Life may not be fair, we play the hand that we are dealt. That doesn't mean that the deck should be stacked.

I really hate to bring myself up again because I know you hate that. But once upon a time I also lived pay check to pay check. Not only that, when my business failed last time, I was up to my eye balls in debt.

Let's look at it this way. Suppose I really really really want to be a professional basketball player. I'm 5'8" at 170 lb. Never played basketball before in my life. Should the NBA lower their standards so I can join or should I deal with the hand I have the best I can?

It is not that i don't care about the minimum wagers. I'm just not convinced raising the minimum wage will do any good for someone that got pregnant at 16, dropped out of school, etc. Let me repeat. Throwing money at those who have not the budgeting skills, the self discipline, and the will for self betterment will not solve anything.

The best example is look at the people who were once poor and then all of a sudden won the lottery. Most of the time, they lost it all in a few years and ended up worse than before. Some even overdosed before they could enjoy the money.

Propose something other than throwing money at the poor then I'll consider it.