Muslim terror across Europe

[kallipolis]

kallipolis, i suspect you raise this perhaps in response to my point, or at least on reflection of it. And though i chose my words with deliberate care, i suspect what I was trying to convey may have been coloured by other debates on similar issues. If I may clarify something I said:


I meant that quite literally. Modernity has put (some) religions in their place, and you may take from that that I concede there is a proper place for religion in society. The Enlightenment improved society because it curtailed the excesses of religion, and in so doing it has freed people from tyranny, but it has also allowed the more nuanced and thoughtful, and productive, threads of religious discourse to thrive.

Ultimately, I think those religious ideas are still in error, but I wholeheartedly endorse the idea that modernity has given religion its best shot at making its case, that it is proper to examine the question in the private sphere (rather than in public office), and that society can benefit from this exercise.

I consider the Enlightenment a success not because it eliminated religion (it didn't, nor did it try to), but because it literally did put it in its place.


Corruption and impotence.



I do. I think having no fear of that scenario is frankly a risk in allowing it to re-emerge. I do not think Chancellor Merkel is a part of that re-emergence. Indeed I have every reason to believe she is a patriot and a democrat who would give her own life if required to prevent any re-emergence of a reconstituted naziism. I do think though, her articulation of clear and reasonable demands of immigrants, is necessary to prevent such re-emergence of fascist tendencies. Blithe indifference or "benign neglect" of the wrongheaded thinking of certain growing immigrant groups is a sure way for a pluralistic society to fail in spectacularly horrific ways.

I do not concern myself with personal perceptions of the past in relation to The Enlightenment's influence on positive change in European society. I am a working research scientist, and not easily influenced by supersticions that masquerade as religious belief. I concern myself with the present. Madam Merkel did fudge her words on the matter of multi-culturism in Germany. However The Chancellor has since clarified her words, and I am satisfied that her clarification has reinforced her commitment, to recognise the constructive contribution that immigrants make in German society.

I have no beef with Chancellor Merkel.

I also recognise that Germany's democratic political system is well able to confront, and disarm any attempt by totalitarian elements to destabilise Germany.

I repeat that I do not fear the influences of either the extreme right, or the extreme left anywhere in Europe.

 

[bankside]

kallipolis, you've pointed out the ratio of neo-nazis to counter-protesters and mentioned that the police also have the upper hand by a comfortable margin.

Have you looked at the ratio of counter-protesters to radicalized muslims?
Or indeed marginalized muslims which may be "radicalizable" if I can abuse the language for a moment.

I can't infer that it would be a problem, for lack of knowledge, but I do think that is the ratio to be watched.

 

[kallipolis]

kallipolis, you've pointed out the ratio of neo-nazis to counter-protesters and mentioned that the police also have the upper hand by a comfortable margin.

Have you looked at the ratio of counter-protesters to radicalized muslims?
Or indeed marginalized muslims which may be "radicalizable" if I can abuse the language for a moment.

I can't infer that it would be a problem, for lack of knowledge, but I do think that is the ratio to be watched.

The anti Nazi counter demonstrators are very apparent by their overwhelming numbers, whenever the Neo Nazis parade in German cities. The German police services efficiently keep the two opposing sides separated. There are moments when tempers flare, and fights ensue. Overall German society handles its extremists in a manner that encourages me to feel comfortable with German institutional democracy.

As a volunteer with Amnesty Greece I am in constant contact with young Muslim illegal immigrants from all over Asia, in transit through Greece to Northern Europe. I am able to state that radicalised Islamics are not overtly visible to those of us who interview the immigrants.

Among long established Muslim communities in Germany, the UK and France there are Islamic elements that encourage radicalised reactions to high levels of unemployment within Muslim communities. However they are easily identifiable, and are often shopped to the police my their fellow Muslims. Most of the opposition to Islamic terrorism has its roots within long established Muslim communities where people understand that they will become the focus of reactionary violence should Islamic terrorism ever escalate.

I well aware that the UK Security Service (MI5) is probably the most able in penetrating secretive Islamic groups in the UK, by using British agents of Asian origin to work within Muslim communities. I have no reason to believe that the equivalent German, and French security services are less capable.

As we have read in our today's press most of the very real threats from Islamic terrorist organisations are head quartered outside Europe.

There is no easy answer to dealing with terrorism, apart from ensuring that The West continues to monitor the activities of Islamic groups, and build bridges in the Muslim world.

You will have noted my reference to Islamic, as opposed to Muslim.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well, you are entitled to your beliefs and they as Canadians are entitled to push for their beliefs. I'm sure you are well aware of what the far right in the US, which largely are Christians are pushing for and their stance and active attempts to reverse any progress for gay rights in the US, and that has nothing to do with any Muslims, it is funded by Mormons, and other Christian denominations. I'm not sure how well the white invaders of Canada respected the culture, laws and norms of the indigenous people, and I suspect it was a mixed bag, as it always will be for new immigrants. They dealt with it, and now you will have to deal with it within the framework of the democratic process.

Nice to know that deep down you would have no problem with the Knesset ordering the IDF to round up every Muslim in Israel and tossing them into the Mediterranean.

And that if Muslims gain a majority in the Netherlands, that you would smile with approval as all females are required to submit to physical and emotional abuse as the price of their existence.

You can believe what you will, as do I, but most mainstream academics would differ with you. Previous attempts at "exporting" such "civilised" standards by the "civilised" to "uncivilised" lands usually turned the "civilised" into savages themselves. How would one define "civilised", the same way the whites did when they first came to America (while ethnic cleansing, forced removal, etc., was "civilised"), is civilised like the white South Africans in Apartheid while the blacks they treated as subhuman "civilised"? Is uncivilised September 11 terrorists, but the direct actions, invasions by "civilised" countries leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and turning millions into refugees "civilised". I obviously greatly differ. And I have previously said, that we do need human rights for everyone to be forwarded globally, and I belief strongly in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But my problem is when human rights is politicised and used as a tool for strategic, economic and military interests, rather than for genuine concerns, as is the case with the US. And that IS imperialism. Friendly tyrants can be armed and their state terrorism can be fully supported by "civilised" countries, but when it comes to unfriendly regimes, then we talk about their human rights records, etc. Now that IS ignorance on the part of the citizens of "civilised" countries who don't see the blatant hypocrisy of their own governments. Guess which countries were the 4 largest recipients of US weapons last year? Human rights, freedom, liberty, etc., are just buzz words that help with the cognitive dissonance needs of the zombies high and fat on cheeseburgers, that way they don't have to question Empire. No credible and educated person who is aware of US foreign policy can ever buy into that crap. These essentialised dichotomies of good and bad, civilised and uncivilised are quite aged, they facilitated colonialism, and is only a mask.

And people wonder why "scholarship" is a dirty word to so many.

BTW -- no more of your efforts to turn this thread into yet another tirade from you about why the US is so evil and why barbarians should be allowed to impose Stone-Age morals on whoever they please. This is about the terror being inflicted on people in Europe.

No one is entitled to use their religious superstitions about homosexuality to divert the course of an election for civic office. It is primitive and, yes, uncivilized. Objectively uncivilized. Too many people, Europeans in fact, died to advance the Enlightenment and the secular state for us to accept a return to the barbarism of naked piety that defined Europe, and the world, for centuries.

If someone wants to stone the fags, or own his wife, or keep his daughters trapped in a black bag, or have their clitorises cut off, I don't give a damn whether he lives or dies in some backwoods hole somewhere out there in some shitty failed state, let alone worry about admitting him to my country as a refugee, where he can experience the "cultural fulfillment" of being able to "push for his beliefs" in MY political system.

The logic for this situation is simple: self-ownership means that the way someone behaves toward others is the way he/she wishes others to behave in return. The behavior of Muslims and anyone else who make a practice of abuse of other human beings, whether by demanding they wear certain items (head scarf, pink triangle, whatever) or death threats because they have a different sense of humor (cowardly superstitious crap about Mohamed) is a direct invitation to treat them the same way. Being polite to them as they advance their thesis that it is legitimate for them to own others is idiocy and cowardice; asserting that there is some sort of legitimacy to their advocacy of primitive tribalistic hierarchies is cooperation with the enemy.

Modernity and the Enlightenment put Christianity in its place, and other religions should expect no less. If we fail to hold people to a minimum civilized standard, parallel societies will arise in the west. And, though I do not advocate this, it will lead to pogroms of one sort or another, again in Europe, and in North America. I can tell you as a gay secular man I do not intend to be on the wrong end of the pogrom.

It didn't put "Christianity" in its place; there were always Christians who had no interest in trampling on others, many who were leading the way in literature, arts, sciences, etc. What the Enlightenment put in its place was theocracy, whose day was over about the time the Roman legions burst through into Herod's Temple and proceeded to trash the Holy of Holies.

If it comes to pogroms, bankside, I have an extra rifle -- you might have to buy the ammo, though, depending on my finances.

So lets all avoid that unhappy future, by putting right a few imminent wrongs:
Support this:
http://www.iheu.org/belief-groups-unite-oppose-un-blasphemy-law
Support this:
http://www.icgi.org/

Support this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,559021,00.html

Support this and this and this, not this or this or this.

And while we're at it, support this: http://www.transparency.org/
but not this: http://www.africa-union.org/

Those are all some practical things we can do which will improve civilization for its own ends, not for some imperialist cause. In fact, doing those things will actually empower the world, bring a better balance of power, and undermine any imperialist tendencies of the [STRIKE]west[/STRIKE] US Republican Party and hegemonic American and European corporate interests.

That UN blasphemy idiocy: if the Republicans had the Senate, would they ratify it because it would give them a tool for oppression, or nix it because it would protect Muslims, too?

 

[Kulindahr]

Whats scary is that there is a strong resurgence in almost all Western European countries in Neo-Nazi groups in the last 10 years, many of them using far right political parties as their bases. I think currently Russia has the most Neo-Nazis in absolute numbers (which is ironic because the Nazis regarded Slavs as degenerated), but their numbers are increasing in Western Europe as well.

What goes beyond scary and into cloud-cuckoo land is that more than a few of the neoNazi groups are fine with gays, so long as they get an official wife and churn out white children.

We lost a very hot Pink Pistol member to them....

 

[Kulindahr]

I meant that quite literally. Modernity has put (some) religions in their place, and you may take from that that I concede there is a proper place for religion in society. The Enlightenment improved society because it curtailed the excesses of religion, and in so doing it has freed people from tyranny, but it has also allowed the more nuanced and thoughtful, and productive, threads of religious discourse to thrive.
. . . .
I consider the Enlightenment a success not because it eliminated religion (it didn't, nor did it try to), but because it literally did put it in its place.

You're echoing a theme I encountered in, IIRC, Chesterton and Lewis, to the effect that real Christians ought to write thank-you notes to the great Enlightenment thinkers, because only a Christianity unburdened by involvement in worldly affairs can hope to be healthy. That was behind Lewis' point when, contrary to public outcry and fear-mongering, he wrote that removing the requirement for chapel/worship attendance at British schools was a victory for faith.

So by "put in its place" you're not so much meaning what that phrase connotes, but more along the lines of "removed the shackles".

Now, if we could just get that point across to the self-righteous theocrats....

Blithe indifference or "benign neglect" of the wrongheaded thinking of certain growing immigrant groups is a sure way for a pluralistic society to fail in spectacularly horrific ways.

A not-quite quote from a military historian I once knew:

When you think you have nothing to worry about from an enemy, check your battle plan -- there's a good chance you're already in too deep.

kallipolis, you've pointed out the ratio of neo-nazis to counter-protesters and mentioned that the police also have the upper hand by a comfortable margin.

Have you looked at the ratio of counter-protesters to radicalized muslims?
Or indeed marginalized muslims which may be "radicalizable" if I can abuse the language for a moment.

I can't infer that it would be a problem, for lack of knowledge, but I do think that is the ratio to be watched.

YES.

And that may be the best response to my original post yet.

 

[Kulindahr]

The anti Nazi counter demonstrators are very apparent by their overwhelming numbers, whenever the Neo Nazis parade in German cities. The German police services efficiently keep the two opposing sides separated. There are moments when tempers flare, and fights ensue. Overall German society handles its extremists in a manner that encourages me to feel comfortable with German institutional democracy.

As a volunteer with Amnesty Greece I am in constant contact with young Muslim illegal immigrants from all over Asia, in transit through Greece to Northern Europe. I am able to state that radicalised Islamics are not overtly visible to those of us who interview the immigrants.

Among long established Muslim communities in Germany, the UK and France there are Islamic elements that encourage radicalised reactions to high levels of unemployment within Muslim communities. However they are easily identifiable, and are often shopped to the police my their fellow Muslims. Most of the opposition to Islamic terrorism has its roots within long established Muslim communities where people understand that they will become the focus of reactionary violence should Islamic terrorism ever escalate.

I well aware that the UK Security Service (MI5) is probably the most able in penetrating secretive Islamic groups in the UK, by using British agents of Asian origin to work within Muslim communities. I have no reason to believe that the equivalent German, and French security services are less capable.

As we have read in our today's press most of the very real threats from Islamic terrorist organisations are head quartered outside Europe.

There is no easy answer to dealing with terrorism, apart from ensuring that The West continues to monitor the activities of Islamic groups, and build bridges in the Muslim world.

You will have noted my reference to Islamic, as opposed to Muslim.

How does this fit with or apply to/against the sort of "peer pressure with prejudice" Zeno has reported and I began the thread with? I'd be tickled to find out that they actually have tools for not just catching the terrorists who make things go boom, but those who stand on the street and say "Boo!" (so to speak).

 

[bankside]

Sorry which link, johann?

And, yes, Libya is nominally socialist. I think it would be classified as "Eccentric Socialism." And not quite a cult of personality. But calling it "populist" seems wrong because with populism there is a notion of pandering to people in exchange for power. But there's no pandering really so that doesn't fit either.

I'll call it "Socialism with Libyan Characteristics."

Or maybe "Socialist Dictatorship with aspects of Magnanimous Narcissism."

 

[kallipolis]

How does this fit with or apply to/against the sort of "peer pressure with prejudice" Zeno has reported and I began the thread with? I'd be tickled to find out that they actually have tools for not just catching the terrorists who make things go boom, but those who stand on the street and say "Boo!" (so to speak).

I am not going to question the veracity of Zeno's understandings on Muslim terror, perpetrated on fellow Muslims in European countries.

I have merely asked if this allegation could be verified by providing us with a credible source that supports Zeno's statement.

I am still waiting.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'll call it "Socialism with Libyan Characteristics."

Or maybe "Socialist Dictatorship with aspects of Magnanimous Narcissism."

Priceless.

 

[Kulindahr]

I am not going to question the veracity of Zeno's understandings on Muslim terror, perpetrated on fellow Muslims in European countries.

I have merely asked if this allegation could be verified by providing us with a credible source that supports Zeno's statement.

I am still waiting.

I started a google search and decided I wasn't going to try to wade through all the crap I got. I hoped that since Zeno lives there, he'd easily know where to find accounts.

 

[Lostlover]

Well, except for the metro bombings in London, the bombings in Madrid and the murder of Theo van Gogh, for which immigrants and/or their direct descendants were responsible...

Your reasoning and view of the situation in Europe is colored by wishful thinking.

And I don't see a use for your evenhanded approach on gay rights and religious views on homosexuality. Your point about the prosecution of gays during WWII adds nothing and belies a pavlovian propensity for pc-ness.

Not your ass lamenting about being PC? Your ass got on my case because you thought I was calling Germans Nazis, something I didn't do and never would do.

Ain't that a little PC of you to suggest that I don't bring up the Nazis?

 

[Lostlover]

Both 'cases' are pretty much identical. But I'm sure that irony is lost on you.

As an afterthought, there is one important difference. I might not always agree with kallipolis's views, but at least he generally knows what he is talking about.

Yawn. You see things where there isn't anything.

For someone that hates PC, you sure seem like the type that is extremely anal and is always looked for perceived slights. After all you thought I called Germans Nazis when in fact I never said or insinuated anything like that.

In America, we have free speech. And if I thought that, I'd say it. So, there's no beating around the bush on my part.

 

[laikaNYC]

Kuli, do you realize that if Joy Behar and Whoopi came in this thread they would storm out?

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli, do you realize that if Joy Behar and Whoopi came in this thread they would storm out?

I think Joy is actually better looking when she storms, so that would be a plus.

I'd just tell Whoopi that Guinan would be ashamed.

 

[Kulindahr]

Wild-Eyed Libs & Cons dont need FACTS

 

[Lostlover]

You make 4 pages of posts based on a slight you perceived being made by Merkel. Of course you can't refrain from mentioning the war (very Monty Pitonesque btw) every other post.

You fail to make any coherent argument. You don't know your facts. This gets pointed out to you repeatedly.

And this tickles you so much that you start an off topic rant in another thread about me perceiving sleights too easily...

That's just effin' hilarious...thanks for the laugh

I didn't mention the war every other post. Another lie from you. I made one crude comment that again should have been taken as seriously as the post I responded to you. But then two crybabies came in and took issue with it. Sounds like some people need a shot of testosterone.

I clearly said I didn't know the context of the statement by Merkel because American media doesn't go into depth on foreign issues. But the excuses I was given and tactics employed like blaming an unbiased article were complete bullshit. Blaming the system might work in Germany and Europe. But it only goes so far here. Maybe that's why there are about five million Dutch living in America.

You and Andross have provided me with enough watercooler material for a while. "Did you know I was talking to a German that felt he was being harassed every time the anniversary of the Holocaust approached?" This one is going to be fucking hilarious to hear my friends react to this one. I definitely won't be able to type what they say here, since a lot of people especially overseas would probably call it hate speech.

"I was once accused of calling Germans Nazis because I said Germans were different than us when it comes to race?" They're probably just going to laugh at this one.

This is going to make an interesting conversation. Thanks for the material. You never know when those dull moments come, but now I'll have something to liven up the conversation.

 

[Corny]

Yet if you take the whole picture, the DDR didn't do too badly. In fact, economically it was better off than much of the rest of the world. In spite of this fact, at the first available moment, the East German citizens ditched the regime.

stop spreading this nonsense. the ddr was massively subsidies by russian oil. their economical system was a total farce with 3-4 people on a job of 1 and a lot more eyewash and window-dressing. and that's why the soviet downfall was the beginning of the end of it. and portraying the "east german citizens" as ungrateful because they revolted against an oppressive regime is just another one in your series of shameful low-blows ..

 

[EastMed]

stop spreading this nonsense. the ddr was massively subsidies by russian oil. their economical system was a total farce with 3-4 people on a job of 1 and a lot more eyewash and window-dressing. and that's why the soviet downfall was the beginning of the end of it. and portraying the "east german citizens" as ungrateful because they revolted against an oppressive regime is just another one in your series of shameful low-blows ..

Still, it doesn't prevent many former East Germans who have fallen on hard times from being nostalgic. It's perfectly understandable.

 

[Corny]

I didn't mean to imply that, Corny.

well you did juxtapose presumed economical well doing to people "revolting on the first possibility" and added a "despite" in between.

i did draw the logical conclusion - especially since you have argued in the past that the DDR wasn't "that bad".

Please follow along with the logic. Maybe I'm not expressing it correctly; may I try again?

okay ..

By contrast, citizens of fundamentalist Islamic societies not only tolerate their oppression, but welcome it.

did you read the news at all after the last iranian election?
in most countries - they have little choice.