Muslims can't do the job.....

[Just_Believe18]

supersticious nonsense???



thats disrespectfull

i dont agree with the choices this person is making either and i am of the same faith.

but its about personal choices

if someone wants to approach life in this way it is their right in america, but they simply should not work in an environment that is not congruous with their beliefs.

I have a right to be anything i want so long as it doesnt violate the rights of others. Fast customer service is not a right. it is a competitive business decision. theres a big big difference. i dont have the right to make my employer be less competitive, but i do have the rights to my beliefs. If my personal choices are harming the business that i am getting a paycheck from, then it seems counterproductive to me.

hassidic jews would not work in a non kosher shop, nor would they even consider the option of shopping there

if muslims have the same strict beliefs they should make the same choices and this discussion would never happen.

Wrong word choice, sorry. What I meant was I don't believe mainstream American Islam would behave in this way. Rather, it is these particular people who feel their cultural ("superstition") expression supercedes the responsibility of their job and customer service.

If religion is more important to them than conventional employment, perhaps they should follow the example of the Amish or Hassidic Jews as you mentioned.

 

[luminum]

I understand that people have different convictions because of their religion, but regardless, if your religion prevents you from ebing able to do your job, then the job is not one you should be doing.

We're often interviewed and given the criteria we must fulfill to be successful employees. At my job, I have to be able to lift 40 pounds with ease. Some peopel can't and it's not discimination or disrespect because if you can't do that, then you won't be able to function efficiently in the work area.

Likewise, if I was a strict Christian and couldn't work on Sundays on a job that requires me to work on Sunday, then I won't be able to perform.

If someone has signed up to be a taxi cab driver, and the job requires them to pick up most peopel (within the reason of possible danger) and you personally cannot pick up a good deal of the peopel whor equire rides, then you'r enot cut out for your job.

If you're working in an industry that may require you to handle pork and it's against your beliefs to handle pork, then you need to find a different job and the employer should not hire you.

On our campus, we had a similar issue with Resident Advisors, who are upper classmen students who stay in freshman dorms to supervise and take responsibility. The position requires that one be able to be a person that other students can talk to about health, sexual health, and LGBT issues (among other things, like coordinating events, setting up hall meetings, enforcing rules, etc.). In return, you get free room and board. You have tot ake a class and one of the classes asked yout o wear an LGBT ally pina round for a week. Some students said that they couldn't because they didn't agree with homosexuality. Myf riend who took it said that if you can't wear the pin, then you don't agree with LGBTs and you won't be able to help any students who may need help with sexuality issues and if that's the case,t hen you probably shouldn't be in the class.

Some students complained that the program's requirements made it difficult for conservatives and Christians to fill those positions because you have to be an 'ally' for LGBT's and you may not agree with birth control etc. It's true that the job makes it difficult for Christians and conservatives to get the part, because the RA has to be open to all kinds of people. And if you don't fill the requirements, then you don't belong in the job because you won't be able to perform. It's not discrimination, because your own convictions limit what you will and will not do and far be it for your employer to force it on you.

So likewise, with this case, it's not discrimination. Muslims who adhere to these rules are not suited for these jobs. Perhaps they should be in a different industry that would never ask them to handle pork or pick up alcohol carriers. How can you expect to be employed for a job that requires things that you are unwilling and unable to do and then expect to be an effective worker?

 

[mike_n_herrin]

I would think that would have come up in an interview....maybe and the person would have been selected for a position other than cashier. I'm not sure that it matters that its a religious belief or not, it's simply an inability to do a particular aspect of the job. i agree with luminum. would it be ok for someone who is a vegetarian and a cashier to refuse to scan or bag any meat product? i guess if it was going to come up often, i'd move her from cashier to stocking in a section that wasn't going to deal with the food.

a pig is not a "filthy" animal any more so than any other animal.

 

[tonyboy]

A very difficult ethical question. I spend a lot of time with Muslims, both at my work, and on some overseas assignments, and I have a lot of respect for them and for Islam. However, in Islam, as in all religions, there are many degrees of practice, and some folk are more hard-line than others.

It seems to me that in this world where many cultures meet and clash, that some education is needed on both sides. If a person refuses to handle pork, then the store must make arrangements for the pork to be handled by another checkout. Also, it may be that some discussion with local religious leaders may be in order - perhaps the devout can be assured that it is OK for them to pass pork products through the checkout, in spite of what Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani says:

http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=5&cid=569

But throwing up ones hands and crying "Sheesh - if you can't do the job, why take it on?" is no start to communication and understanding.

-T.

Sorry friend, got to disagree with you.
This is hardly a difficult question, let alone involving ethics. I don't know of a person ever forced to come to the USA (not speaking of course of the 18th Century slave trade)....
If a person doesn't want to handle (let alone eat) packaged pork products then they should go sell shoes, or find some other occupation. Why would it be the stores problem to find another clerk to scan that item?
Why would discussion with local religious leaders even be considered? The store owners are running a business. It is tough enough trying to turn a profit and paying your employess a decent wage with out having to deal with stuff like this.

If a person has religious beliefs that are contrary to mine fine... I've no problem with that. But keep your religion private... and if your religion conflicts with your job find a different job or a different religion.

 

[luminum]

I also disagree with you, Teadrinker. It's not an issue of understanding someone's religion. What more is there to understand other than that bottomline, they can't? Whether the employer thinks that's 'right or wrong' is inconsequential. If they can't perform a duty because of a religious reason, then those reasons will be respected and the person should be moved to another position where it will never come up again.

Talking to a religious leader doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, a position that should be fully independently handled is being filled by someone who cannot meet the complete criteria. In all rationality, the person should be moved ot a different position that they are capable of fulfilling and someone else who can fulfill the cashier/pork handling job completely should replace their previous position.

In the pure argument, there is no religious misunderstanding or culture clash going on here. If the employer failed to listen to these issues and forced the employee to handle pork or if he or she fired the employee for being insubordinate, then there'd be a clash, but this is simply a case of specifics that need to be handled and can be handled without a "pork liason".

 

[slobone]

And incidentally, if she was really strict, she wouldn't even set foot in a store that sold pork, much less work in one. If you want to keep a high standard of religious observances, you have to make some sacrifices.

 

[NightDancer]

And once again, religion surfaces in a debate...

How would this be any different than when I go to the market and buy wine and the kid behind the counter is under 21 and I have to swipe and bag my own wine? I bet she would not complain if she had to bag her own liquor. So I take it it's ok to hire minors who are not allowed to handle liquor, but not ok to hire someone who can't handle pork products?

 

[unclaimedblessing]

The minor is in training.
There is the assumption he will come of legal age and be able to do the complete job.

 

[phoneguy2]

I have moved this thread to this forum (Religion) so the discussion can go on without further flames or derogatory comments.

Wally

 

[gottaloveit]

Bored of Muslims, Bored Hearing About Muslims.

 

[mULTIsPEEDo]

You can turn every religion into something dangerous, but right now, it is only happening in Islam and many Muslims.

A documentation that I found VERY disturbing was "Undercover Mosque" from a liberal UK-channel.

You can watch it on Youtube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo (Part 1)

 

[JackFTwist]

Bored of Muslims, Bored Hearing About Muslims.

I suppose you could avoid that by not reading threads with the word "Muslims" in the title

 

[xyzguy]

I suppose you could avoid that by not reading threads with the word "Muslims" in the title

Yeah but where else is he going to express what he just said... don't try to shut people up.

As for taking a legal job that requires you to do or handle something you don't agree with... ok he needs to find a new job.

On the whole pork thing. It is not what comes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you.

Oh and also the title is a bit offensive.

 

[Boogerqueesha]

Sometimes, I am embarrassed at my fellow Americans. I am from no Semitic culture, so I need not be hold back from fear of being typical.

You lazy tubs of lard, living in the lap of luxury, try compromising yourself FOR A SECOND in an effort to understand another human being.

I am soooooooooooo tired of Americans bitching about immigrants who hold on to precious bits of their cultures, because it 'inconveniences' the poor poor American, who is under 'attack' in his/her own home.

People who have come here out of necessity (sometimes because WE fucked up their homes) and are forced by economic status to do the jobs we only let our teenagers do- try on their shoes for a TINY SECOND and check the freaking package of meat out yourself.

Humble yourself for a just second, Jesus Christ! <--- Discordant religiously based swear is *intentional*, for the record.

 

[zoltanspawn]

No shit, Boogerqueesha.

"Moooommmmm! Suzy made me scan the bacon for her!"

Physical effort involved in helping a pious clerk: inconsequential.

Mental effort: apparently inestimable.

"I'm telling!"

 

[Kulindahr]

I've seen this handled at stores with hardly any delay at all in the line. It's easy when they have those back-to-back check stands, so the other checker just has to rotate and do the scan. The other way I've seen it handled was by a clerk who just wore very snug sheepskin gloves with rubber finger surfaces to make holding things easy. There's no prohibition against touching sheepskin, and since that was all he was touching, what was on the other side of the glove was irrelevant.
Making things this strict is like telling a boy who gets horny for girls to never, ever go to a place where there are girls, in order to stay "clean".

Additionally, if Muslims really respected Jesus as a prophet they wouldn't have this problem, since He taught that there's nothing a person can touch that will make the person unclean.

 

[slobone]

^^^ It seems to me that this must have been an issue for Muslims all over the world, for hundreds of years, when they were living in mixed communities with non-Muslims. So it's hard to believe that they haven't come up with a way to do their job without compromising their beliefs. I think the sheepskin gloves sound like a good practical solution.

Certainly orthodox Jews have faced similar problems, and they've managed to work it out.

And anyway, if the attitude of this woman (from the original article) was the typical one among Muslims, wouldn't we have heard about it before now? I wonder if maybe she's a little ignorant or confused.

 

[JackFTwist]

Sometimes, I am embarrassed at my fellow Americans. I am from no Semitic culture, so I need not be hold back from fear of being typical.

You lazy tubs of lard, living in the lap of luxury, try compromising yourself FOR A SECOND in an effort to understand another human being.

I am soooooooooooo tired of Americans bitching about immigrants who hold on to precious bits of their cultures, because it 'inconveniences' the poor poor American, who is under 'attack' in his/her own home.

People who have come here out of necessity (sometimes because WE fucked up their homes) and are forced by economic status to do the jobs we only let our teenagers do- try on their shoes for a TINY SECOND and check the freaking package of meat out yourself.

Humble yourself for a just second, Jesus Christ! <--- Discordant religiously based swear is *intentional*, for the record.

Thank you.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

The world has always had human migrations. Sometimes caused by war, persecution, famine or just plain better opportunities.
How many of these immigrants expected their host country to change their laws or customs to accomodate them? The host country was generous enough to accept them and frequently provide assistance.
Don't apply for or accept a job that offends your beliefs. That's just plain old common sense.

 

[OrionNorthFL]

I'm on the side of the supermarket patrons. Let ANY clerk tell me to scan my own item because their fairy tale beliefs when that is THEIR JOB and you'll watch two people stare at eachother for an hour until someone else gets tired of the spectacle and comes over to scan the pork ribs.

Why on earth would you work somewhere that would expose you to the possibility of making yourself "impure" by touching meat? It's in the job description. Don't like it, do something else for a living or wear gloves.

This isn't about people "holding onto a shred of their culture." -- especially when nobody is FORCING them to work around pork products. "Economic necessity forces you into food service"? Give me a break. Go become a maid or janitor if it's THAT important to you.

Get over your American guilt complex and think logically for just one second. This smells of a group of people LOOKING for a civil rights fight and it's completely ridiculous.