My Illegal Amnesty Issue Hypothesis

[Kulindahr]

And this has been a racist thread. We wouldnt be having this conversation if those 12 million immigrants were from England or Germany

NOT. If they were from either of those two countries, they would be busily assimilating into our culture, something the Mexican illegals apparently have no intention of doing.

PS - I just read your profile, and you characterize yourself as Hispanic. My one ask what flavor?
My partner is Puerto Rican, and neither he nor any member of his extended family considers these Mexican illegals to be true Hispanics.

The immigrants, legal and illegal, from Mexico are assimilating as quickly as any in the past -- German, Irish, etc. The ones who aren't are the ones here who intend to go back, and that isn't a large portion.

Snobbery from Puerto Rico... interesting. It takes some astonishingly twisted reasoning to exclude people who speak Spanish from "Hispanic".

 

[Kulindahr]

Sadly, the whole thing runs very deeply.
Case in point.

My partner's family is from Puerto Rico.
His father's side of the family are very light skinned.
His mother's family has some Indian blood, and are more brown, and he and his brother have inherited that trait.

Because of this, his paternal grandparents have never really acknowledged him and his brother - simply because he is darker skinned.

As I said, these people take it very seriously.

I'd say you're dealing with a small class of snobs.
I've known quite a number of Puerto Ricans, and none had this color-bigotry you're talking about. One family had kids ranging from almost as white as I am to dark enough to be taken for being of African origin -- five kids, five shades of color.
I suspect it's like in Mexico: those with Spanish ancestry count themselves as "better", an attitude passed down by families resentful of no longer being aristocracy -- so their descendants try to pretend they still are.
In my view, those with such attitudes are the ones to be looked down on -- and pitied.

 

[Kulindahr]

Just a point about the Cuba situation: irrespective of who started that special status, neither major party wants to end it, because the first to do so will lose the Cuban vote, which is still a huge bloc in Florida. You might think the anti-Castro fervor would have died down after two generations, but it keeps getting rekindled by new arrivals.
While Mexico was still a de facto dictatorship, it would have made sense to allow refugees in; now that they're making attempts to have a democracy (though they're lousy on human rights), it's too late.

But this is part of a historical pattern that has fed American prosperity: we have had Irish, Germans, and others in waves, who seemed to be taking over the country, who took low-paying jobs... and who got targeted by the same anti-ethnic animosity the Hispanics are getting.
Maybe we should go back to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".

 

[Kulindahr]

^ Do you think that's the same ridiculous reason why we continue this petty feud with Cuba still?

Absolutely -- no one wants to move first, because they'll lose the Cuban vote, and with it, the state.

Clinton showed himself small-minded when the Pope handed him a huge opportunity to change things, the only serious opening any President has been given. I don't see another one coming; the only hope is that somehow the whole Castro clan will die off and someone sensible and less of an autocrat will take over.

Or it will take a party dominating both houses of Congress and holding the White House so strongly they don't need Florida.

 

[TongueTied]

There are some important differences between the wave of European immigration to this country that occured between 1845-1925 and the situation today.

1. First of all, the question before us is ILLEGAL immigration. It has nothing to do with legal immigration.

2. The massive European immigration that previously occured was legal and regulated. I am assuming you have heard of Ellis Island.

3. No one ethnic/linguistic group dominated among the immigrants. There were literally millions of Germans, Irish, Poles, Russians, Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, etc.

4. Once the immigrants got here, for most there was no turning back.

5. There was no government attempt at promoting "multiculturalism"

6. The United States at that time was emerging as a world power and the country was rapidly undergoing industrialisation.

Today, the massive immigration is mostly illegal. We have no idea who is entering the country, or for what reason. The fact that this is still occuring almost 6 yrs after 9/11 is criminal.

The illegal immigrants are exploited by their fellow countrymen in trying to sneak across the border ( the coyotes), and are exploited in this country by unscrupulous employers who often do not pay minimum wage, benefits, etc.

The majority of illegal immigrants are Spanish speaking from Mexico and Central America. This is creating a parallel society in this country. Just look at other countries that are torn apart by language- Canada, Belguim, Spain, most Third World countries. The rise of bilingualism is undermining our society.

There are far fewer reasons to assimilate than in the past. The illegal immigrants can watch Spanish TV, listen to Spanish radio, shop and live in all Spanish speaking areas, get credit cards at Bank of America with no valid social security numbers, and travel frequently back to Mexico.

My family came to this country in the earlier wave of immigration. They came here legally. The government did not support them. There was no bilingual education. 3 out of my 4 grandparents were immigrants. One of my grandmothers never learned English. My father, although born here, could not speak English when he entered school. There were no bilingual Italian/English classes, so he had to learn English.

I am not opposed to legal immigration by Latinos or any other group, but the current situation is a disaster for this country, and our politicians of both parties have a lot to answer for. The current bill before Congress is a joke.

 

[RandomAccess]

Tell me where I said that my SO's family was an example of what you refer to "my side" of a discussion. I merely pointed out that some people think that way, rightly or wrongly.

Ahem:

Case in point.

My partner's family is from Puerto Rico.
His father's side of the family are very light skinned.
His mother's family has some Indian blood, and are more brown, and he and his brother have inherited that trait.

Because of this, his paternal grandparents have never really acknowledged him and his brother - simply because he is darker skinned.

As I said, these people take it very seriously.

If you hold them up as an example, they, as a subject, are open to scrutiny.

As for the JUB quote feature, it appears to be like leftist dogma - too inflexible to work with.

Yeah. . . "inflexible. . ." good word. You seem to have managed it here.

 

[HenryReardon]

Ahem:

If you hold them up as an example, they, as a subject, are open to scrutiny.


Yeah. . . "inflexible. . ." good word. You seem to have managed it here.

Sigh. I guess some people just don't quite comprehend plain English. Oh well....

 

[HenryReardon]

There are some important differences between the wave of European immigration to this country that occured between 1845-1925 and the situation today.

1. First of all, the question before us is ILLEGAL immigration. It has nothing to do with legal immigration.

2. The massive European immigration that previously occured was legal and regulated. I am assuming you have heard of Ellis Island.

3. No one ethnic/linguistic group dominated among the immigrants. There were literally millions of Germans, Irish, Poles, Russians, Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, etc.

4. Once the immigrants got here, for most there was no turning back.

5. There was no government attempt at promoting "multiculturalism"

6. The United States at that time was emerging as a world power and the country was rapidly undergoing industrialisation.

Today, the massive immigration is mostly illegal. We have no idea who is entering the country, or for what reason. The fact that this is still occuring almost 6 yrs after 9/11 is criminal.

The illegal immigrants are exploited by their fellow countrymen in trying to sneak across the border ( the coyotes), and are exploited in this country by unscrupulous employers who often do not pay minimum wage, benefits, etc.

The majority of illegal immigrants are Spanish speaking from Mexico and Central America. This is creating a parallel society in this country. Just look at other countries that are torn apart by language- Canada, Belguim, Spain, most Third World countries. The rise of bilingualism is undermining our society.

There are far fewer reasons to assimilate than in the past. The illegal immigrants can watch Spanish TV, listen to Spanish radio, shop and live in all Spanish speaking areas, get credit cards at Bank of America with no valid social security numbers, and travel frequently back to Mexico.

My family came to this country in the earlier wave of immigration. They came here legally. The government did not support them. There was no bilingual education. 3 out of my 4 grandparents were immigrants. One of my grandmothers never learned English. My father, although born here, could not speak English when he entered school. There were no bilingual Italian/English classes, so he had to learn English.

I am not opposed to legal immigration by Latinos or any other group, but the current situation is a disaster for this country, and our politicians of both parties have a lot to answer for. The current bill before Congress is a joke.

Very well said. Don't forget, also, that the Mexican government provides the would-be illegals with a handy pamphlet showing them how to slip into this country.

 

[RandomAccess]

Sigh. I guess some people just don't quite comprehend plain English. Oh well....

Yes, some do seem to have trouble with English. Do you need a tutor? I can help on that, too.

This is sillyness, Hank. My take on this whole exchange is:

You: I'm right, and here's why.
Me: You're wrong, because your example is flawed.
You: Well, I never said that.
Me: Yes, you did.
You: No, you mis-understood.
Me: No, I didn't.
ad-nauseum. . .

Perhaps if you would try NOT to foul the water with examples that you, yourself, are going to abandon & deny, we'd all get along a lot better.

 

[HenryReardon]

Yes, some do seem to have trouble with English. Do you need a tutor? I can help on that, too.

This is sillyness, Hank. My take on this whole exchange is:

You: I'm right, and here's why.
Me: You're wrong, because your example is flawed.
You: Well, I never said that.
Me: Yes, you did.
You: No, you mis-understood.
Me: No, I didn't.
ad-nauseum. . .

Perhaps if you would try NOT to foul the water with examples that you, yourself, are going to abandon & deny, we'd all get along a lot better.

Just got to have the last word, don't you?

 

[inlovewithanton]

The majority of illegal immigrants are Spanish speaking from Mexico and Central America. This is creating a parallel society in this country. Just look at other countries that are torn apart by language- Canada, Belguim, Spain, most Third World countries. The rise of bilingualism is undermining our society.

Canada is "torn apart" by language?? lol. I think Canada is the only place on earth where the french and english dont fight. lol.

 

[RandomAccess]

Just got to have the last word, don't you?

Maybe.

 

[TongueTied]

Canada is "torn apart" by language?? lol. I think Canada is the only place on earth where the french and english dont fight. lol.

Perhaps "torn apart" was too strong a term. The point I am trying to make, there are many countries that are experiencing major problems due to language conflicts. Do we really want that to happen here?

Canada does have a lot of conclict between English speakers and French speaking Quebecers. The Quebec seperatist party's goal is independence. There have already been a couple of referendums on this issue in the province, and the last time the vote was almost 50/50. There is a real possiblity of Canada breaking apart over this issue. If that would happen, the Maritime provinces would be seperated from the rest of English speaking Canada. They in turn could possibly secede and form their own independent nation, join the United States, or revert back to an independent dominion within the Commonwealth.

 

[Kulindahr]

Tearing a country apart over language is difficult and unlikely unless the language divide follows a geographical divide, as in Canada. When the two languages are spoken side by side across a broad area, one will win and the other lose -- except that the loser will leave numerous phrases behind, absorbed by the winner.

 

[TongueTied]

Tearing a country apart over language is difficult and unlikely unless the language divide follows a geographical divide, as in Canada. When the two languages are spoken side by side across a broad area, one will win and the other lose -- except that the loser will leave numerous phrases behind, absorbed by the winner.

Does the idea of having a permanent Spanish speaking underclass in this country sound like a good thing or a bad thing? Will it strengthen or weaken our democratic form of government? Will it strengthen or weaken our sense of national unity? Will it strengthen or weaken the economyy? Will it strengthen or weaken integration?

I think the answer to the above questions is obvious.

 

[Kulindahr]

Does the idea of having a permanent Spanish speaking underclass in this country sound like a good thing or a bad thing? Will it strengthen or weaken our democratic form of government? Will it strengthen or weaken our sense of national unity? Will it strengthen or weaken the economyy? Will it strengthen or weaken integration?

I think the answer to the above questions is obvious.

Someone would have to work really hard to make any of those things come to pass. As I said, when two languages occupy the same geographical region, one wins, while assimilating some phrases from the loser.
Spanish-speaking immigrants are assimilating linguistically just as fast as did the Germans, Irish, Italians, and everyone else -- faster, sometimes. The fear-hype about a permanent population speaking another language these days is just like that concerning all the Germans flooding the country back around the time of the Civil War. Those Germans made up a much larger portion of the population then than Hispanics do now, and they got absorbed; the Hispanics are being absorbed as well.

As a matter of fact, there are a fair number of Hispanics around here who don't speak much Spanish at all -- their grandparents did, their parents spoke some, but they've lost it. And that's the trend around the country, as it has been with previous languages: by the third generation, the immigrants speak the dominant language and know very little of that of their grandparents.


As for weakening our form of government, what has done that most over the years has been immigration from places where the people are accustomed to authoritarian government -- the attitudes they bring help make it easier for government here to keep on adding powers not granted by the Constitution. That is far more dangerous than any difference in language.