New Joss Whedon Drama Coming in Jan - Dollhouse

[falconfan]

^^ Okay, I'll watch it...but I'm not expecting it to change.

I was at a friends and he hadn't seen the last episode, it was on his Tivo, so I watched it again while he watched it.

I had to laugh out loud when he flipped the table in the kitchen and tried to act all badass.

The innocent, child-like mannerisms of the dolls is a stupid and an unnecessary character trait...you can erase their memories and plant personalities...why not plant a functioning personality in then while they are idle?

The scene where she is talking to the guy who had his way with the doll...LOL!! It was so low rent. When that guy hit him upside the head it look so cheesy.

I'm not shocked the show is getting panned.

But I'll watch the next one just cuz you asked.

They quickly and easily explained why they couldn't default them in the pilot when Topher said "we tried that. Didn't work out so well." Not to mention that presumably, from the first scene, at some point in time "Echo" and "Seirra" and "Victor" will cease to exist. These people will be released from their contracts and reenter life as themselves 5 or 10 or however many years in the future. If you make Echo someone and then you bring Kathrine (is it Kathrine?) back after her contract is filled than you're killing Echo. You're making the person cease to exist. Not to mention that if you give them default personalities you're more likely to have to RANGLE them. You have to deal with questions, desires to be free, the whole human experience. Why ruin a perfect tool by giving it a human conciousness to think and feel and hypothetically decide against being used in the way you'd like it to?

In other news: Thoughts on who the traitor is? My money is on Topher's assistant. I've thought about this and the person who reprogrammed Echo would need to posses this ability and just earlier in that episode I thought to myself 'I don't get this character why is she there? It seems like for humor but the scenes aren't funny' It makes perfect sense. She's disgruntled. She has access to Topher's profile (because he was interrupted while making it) and she hypothetically has the necessary skill set. They try to bring her in under the radar as comic relief cast someone who looks unassuming and innocent. Yeah my money's on her.

Outside chance/what I'd like to see- it being Olivia.

 

[Linxus87]

There is so much hate for this show, and I don't understand it. Maybe it's because the only other work of Whedon I have seen was Angel, so I'm not knowledgeable on his greater creations, but it's a solid show regardless IMO. Especially when people stop comparing it to his other works for once. That's all I see happening.

Anyways, where is these episodes that weren't touched by Fox located? I'd love to see what the pilot would have been, if so many liked that over the one that premiered. Why did they retool the show anyway? (Sorry if that was answered, I'm gonna go check now, but if someone knows feel free to tell me).

 

[Linxus87]

Holy crap, how much did Fran (Topher) stuff in his boxers O_O? That bulge was HUGE!

 

[aijalon18]

Tonight's episode was truly awful. I felt like I was affected by the crazy disease the people on the show had. The whole thing was ridiculous and made no sense. How did Echo's handler snap out of it to save her exactly? Was this ever explained? And how did Olivia and the science guy get infected without ever leaving the dollhouse? The only good thing about this episode was the hot guy that turned out to be a bad guy. Hopefully he becomes a regular doll like Sierra and Victor.

 

[falconfan]

Tonight's episode was truly awful. I felt like I was affected by the crazy disease the people on the show had. The whole thing was ridiculous and made no sense. How did Echo's handler snap out of it to save her exactly? Was this ever explained? And how did Olivia and the science guy get infected without ever leaving the dollhouse? The only good thing about this episode was the hot guy that turned out to be a bad guy. Hopefully he becomes a regular doll like Sierra and Victor.

They got it from Millie, who Topher infected with the virus to find an anti-virus. It took me a while to figure it out too.

Put I agree this whole episode was a horrible let down coming off of last week. It just reveals to me a terrible lack of creativity. Everything was just SO convenient. The 'drug' seemed to have no discernable symptoms other than to make the characters spout terrible dialogue/do silly things that the writers thought would be funny (emphasis on thought). But aside from the lack of coherent storyline, the way Victor and Seirra were just SHOVED into the storyline to maintain their presence, an episode like this is a horrible idea 5 episodes in. I think a key point of a show like this is the idea that anyone could be someone they're not, an illusion you especially want to hype up after Millie went all kick ass, and this episode killed any chance the writers may have of through a mega-twist in there. Now Topher, Olivia, Boyd, and annoying-guy are pinned down as not being actives.

Millie being there was horrible. I just hate seeing her in the Dollhouse setting so soon after the revelation of her nature. It was just not good... any of it.

And the preview for next week looks horrible too.

It was just not good. Even small things like the fact the serum was hidden in a vial that was dark black when all those around it were blood colored.... um so the team that was scouring that lab wouldn't have checked a thing like that? Oh and can we also mention the complete lack of security around the facility like Echo/Alice/Caroline and that guy just walked out of the containment unit WTF?????

Bad just bad.

 

[aijalon18]

Yea they really fucked up a good thing with Millie. Her being a sleeper was so cool and unexpected. I really like her and Agent Smith's storyline too but not with her hanging out at the dollhouse.

Plus I agree the disease made no sens like you said. They were trying to do too damn much too soon. The pacing is insane. They're already having an awakening? And why in the hell would they have dolls trying to contain a disease? And what is with the dolls randomly walking in on conversations?

I cant believe this is the same Joss that created Buffy. Buffy started out straightforward and established a core group with a monster of the week. Dollhouse is all over the place and doesnt seem to have a real focus.

 

[falconfan]

And I'm also mad at the underuse of Acker. They beef the part up so much when she's there because it is her but she's so absent from anythign resembling an important storyline because the character is so obscure it's just like you can't have it both ways.

 

[aijalon18]

And I'm also mad at the underuse of Acker. They beef the part up so much when she's there because it is her but she's so absent from anythign resembling an important storyline because the character is so obscure it's just like you can't have it both ways.

I almost forgot about Amy Acker. I dont get why Joss would bring her on and not utilize her properly. He seems to be more interested in putting Eliza in skimpy and impractical outfits and force down our throats how sexy she is. I wish they would tone down Topher to beef Amy up. He's just annoying and not funny. They should have just made him a loveable nerd who is more obedient instead of this cocky, obnoxious ham who wastes screen time. It's like they mixed Xander with Warren. Again, too much.

 

[falconfan]

I wouldn't even have a problem with the character if the dialogue was just written better. Like there are so many times when I'm like that's suppose to be funny... but it's just not. Like the juice box thing clearly meant to make him 'quirky' but so transparent.

 

[Phoenix3]

Well I loved it. I thought it was a fantastic episode... felt very Jossy to me. Besides, Topher and Adelle's scene were just too damn funny.

 

[falconfan]

Don't know why. The only two eps penned by Joss where the pilot and and last week's.

 

[Phoenix3]

Don't know why. The only two eps penned by Joss where the pilot and and last week's.

Yes I know. But It had a Joss feel to it. Not sure why. But either way.. I liked it.

 

[falconfan]

^ i agree, the last episode really did have a real joss style. and as flawed as the episode was i liked it. it finally gave us insight as to who echo is.

That's just it though... I don't fucking care who Echo is (as evidenced by the fact I didn't even remember her real name last week). All the Caroline scenes made me roll my eyes and say really... overblown overdramatic unoriginal caricature PETA girl???? That's what you've got for us? I couldn't care less about her (now I'm hopign she's Olivia's daughter... how fucking awesome/fucked up would that be?)

The only character I've any genuine connection to is Millie... which is why I cared when stuff happened to her. Oh and Boyd. I also feel Boyd has a sense of character. But as for everyone else couldn't care less. Topher is annoying. Detective guy whose name I can't remember is just as flat. It would be nice if they gave us a REASON for his apparent obssession with the Dollhouse, you know Mulder style. Angry I-Hate-Echo guy is one-dimensinoal.

Acker's character and Olivia have potential. They're very restrained 'I have something going on under this shy/pristine veneer' thing going for them. So that you can develop. The Victor/Seirra relationship (Seictor? Vierra?) actually seemed kinda cute, workable as well but individually they're dull.

It may also be a bit 'Jossy' because it was written by former Angel Scribe Elizabeth Craft, so she's probably had experience trying to refine the style.

 

[Phoenix3]

That's just it though... I don't fucking care who Echo is (as evidenced by the fact I didn't even remember her real name last week). All the Caroline scenes made me roll my eyes and say really... overblown overdramatic unoriginal caricature PETA girl???? That's what you've got for us? I couldn't care less about her (now I'm hopign she's Olivia's daughter... how fucking awesome/fucked up would that be?)

The only character I've any genuine connection to is Millie... which is why I cared when stuff happened to her. Oh and Boyd. I also feel Boyd has a sense of character. But as for everyone else couldn't care less. Topher is annoying. Detective guy whose name I can't remember is just as flat. It would be nice if they gave us a REASON for his apparent obssession with the Dollhouse, you know Mulder style. Angry I-Hate-Echo guy is one-dimensinoal.

Acker's character and Olivia have potential. They're very restrained 'I have something going on under this shy/pristine veneer' thing going for them. So that you can develop. The Victor/Seirra relationship (Seictor? Vierra?) actually seemed kinda cute, workable as well but individually they're dull.

It may also be a bit 'Jossy' because it was written by former Angel Scribe Elizabeth Craft, so she's probably had experience trying to refine the style.

I actually like the girl Caroline -starts as-

An animal rights bitch who will go as far as breaking into a secret lab.

BUT - and that's a huge but... Her story is not entirely told yet. In the flash back we see Adelle go to confront Caroline in the hospital bed.. Caroline has escaped.

The scene in which Adelle is talking to Caroline about the contract takes place much later on. Notice Caroline is darker and looks kinda drugged out. So some pretty wild stuff must go on between the two points. Believe me.. Joss wouldn't just spit it all out right away.

All we know about Caroline so far is that she was an animal rights activist. And I think it's genius. If you think about that and then think about the Dollhouse.. it really kinda makes you go.. ahhhh.

Now to the Caroline / Adelle relationship.. Obviously there is something going on there. Could be that they're related.. Maybe not. But Adelle does have some strong feelings for Echo/Caroline. She refuses to send her to the attic.. is constantly on watch for her.. clearly favors her over most actives... So yeah - Something big is going on there.

 

[falconfan]

I actually like the girl Caroline -starts as-

An animal rights bitch who will go as far as breaking into a secret lab.

BUT - and that's a huge but... Her story is not entirely told yet. In the flash back we see Adelle go to confront Caroline in the hospital bed.. Caroline has escaped.

The scene in which Adelle is talking to Caroline about the contract takes place much later on. Notice Caroline is darker and looks kinda drugged out. So some pretty wild stuff must go on between the two points. Believe me.. Joss wouldn't just spit it all out right away.

All we know about Caroline so far is that she was an animal rights activist. And I think it's genius. If you think about that and then think about the Dollhouse.. it really kinda makes you go.. ahhhh.

Now to the Caroline / Adelle relationship.. Obviously there is something going on there. Could be that they're related.. Maybe not. But Adelle does have some strong feelings for Echo/Caroline. She refuses to send her to the attic.. is constantly on watch for her.. clearly favors her over most actives... So yeah - Something big is going on there.

As far as I'm concerned... I don't give a shit. Clearly any story continues to advance as it goes on but I'm not gonna just say oh it's good because maybe it'll get better later. The character lacks nuance. That's the problem. She's very poorly written. She's drab and blah and all her dialogue is on the nose. Not to mention it was just dumb for Joss not to choose to right the first real encounter with Caroline.

I still believe fully that she shouldn't be the protagonist, that she's just being shoved down out throats because it's Eliza.

 

[aijalon18]

That's just it though... I don't fucking care who Echo is (as evidenced by the fact I didn't even remember her real name last week). All the Caroline scenes made me roll my eyes and say really... overblown overdramatic unoriginal caricature PETA girl???? That's what you've got for us? I couldn't care less about her (now I'm hopign she's Olivia's daughter... how fucking awesome/fucked up would that be?)

The only character I've any genuine connection to is Millie... which is why I cared when stuff happened to her. Oh and Boyd. I also feel Boyd has a sense of character. But as for everyone else couldn't care less. Topher is annoying. Detective guy whose name I can't remember is just as flat. It would be nice if they gave us a REASON for his apparent obssession with the Dollhouse, you know Mulder style. Angry I-Hate-Echo guy is one-dimensinoal.

Acker's character and Olivia have potential. They're very restrained 'I have something going on under this shy/pristine veneer' thing going for them. So that you can develop. The Victor/Seirra relationship (Seictor? Vierra?) actually seemed kinda cute, workable as well but individually they're dull.

It may also be a bit 'Jossy' because it was written by former Angel Scribe Elizabeth Craft, so she's probably had experience trying to refine the style.

OMG Im right there with you on Millie. She is the best character on the show. I care more about her than Echo. The actress who plays her does her perfectly. And she's pretty imo even though she's not Hollywood skinny.

I did think I liked Caroline in the small glimpses. But the PETA girl thing they went with is really dumb as hell like you said.

Echo's handler is cool. And so is Olivia. but Topher needs to be killed or completely retool his character.

I really want to like Eliza but she's not a good enough actress imo. SHe's only good at tough girl Faith type characters. WHen she plays anything else she just looks like she's playing dress up.

 

[falconfan]

But that's just it...they didn't explain it, they just wrote a line of script and tried to pass it off as a reason. there is no reason that they can't plant a "action" personality on them, send them off on their mission and plant another temporary personality on them while they are idle around the house. It's because Josh wants them to walk around the firm in their sex kitten, innocent child, monotone doll voice. It's stupid. After each episode the existence and the believability of the dollhouse falls further and further apart.

Dude, I have many a problem with the show but this particular poitn makes complete sense. Why would you give them personalities? Why? If you want to ensure that you'll be able to completely control them and they'll vege around and be non-threatening to your operation. You don't want them being curious or developing emotions that may hinder your ability to completely control them.

 

[falconfan]

OMG Im right there with you on Millie. She is the best character on the show. I care more about her than Echo. The actress who plays her does her perfectly. And she's pretty imo even though she's not Hollywood skinny.

Oh the girl is definitely stunning.

I really want to like Eliza but she's not a good enough actress imo. SHe's only good at tough girl Faith type characters. WHen she plays anything else she just looks like she's playing dress up.

Well that's why EVERYONE she's been turns into a tough girl. Think about it. Tough girl hostage negotiator. Tough girl singer. Tough girl safe cracker and even tough girl blind religious chick. I mean there's just always a point where she's like listen everyone I'm taking charge because I'm tough and you're going to listen to me.... There's no real variety in the characters she plays.

 

[falconfan]

It's a complete plant. They've already stated that they won't develop emotions (or will they? *gasp* Oh the suspense ). They've also said that they can plant complete loyalty. There are thousands of scenarios they can plant...the wipe down to the child like quality (a personality in itself) is just stupid. I know Josh thinks it's clever, but it's not.

It's not stupid it's common sense. You note that they can plant loyalty and prevent the development of emotions but have you ever considered that these things might be contingent on the childlike state, where there's no personality to get in the way of the formation of that kind of trust or prompt the development of emotions. I mean just think about it if you're going to remake these people on a regular basis you want them blank so that you can add whatever you want to, as soon as you want to, as easily as you'd like. Why go through the trouble of creating personalities that can only serve to cause problems for the Dollhouse? From a writing perspective, yeah it would be great if the actives had personality, but from the perspective of the characters (which is the perspective a writer must write from if they want things to flow in an honest coherent fashion) it makes no god damn sense for that to be true.

 

[HylianPride]

Sometimes it takes a show a while to find its groove. Something tells me dollhouse won't find its groove this season. Everything might culminate into a worthwhile season ender, but as of now i have little hope the show will become anything interesting. This doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing though. Regarding another whedon show, angel, i found the first season boring and seriously lacking. and then somewhere in the middle of the second season, it didnt just become good, it became awesome. of course i would have never started watching it at that point if it werent for the buffy crossovers, but still, it went on to become such a phenomenal show. who knows, the same thing could happen to whedon's dollhouse.