NSA data mining

[tigerfan482]

Tigerfan, I can't believe you're still here playing the same note.


You'll do better with your mandate to go read the 29 pages of media strategy. Or are there another 29 pages of social media strategy we haven't seen yet? If so, those pages need to be revised.

Every week more information comes to light that corroborates all of the concerns raised earlier this summer, which you then dismissed as being unfounded speculation. Evidently it is well-founded inference. And it reveals a security and surveillance apparatus without sufficient democratic oversight that has capacities, and often procedures, that go well beyond what is reasonable to support a free society.

Not at all. Every day new information comes to light that drifts even further from the initial idea that the NSA is spying on all Americans. In fact, as of the last 2 or 3 months, the news cycle has been exclusively about how NSA targets foreign governments and people, which is exactly what their mandate is.

And I have read the 29 pages of "media strategy" and it all seems to line up with exactly what the NSA has been saying all along.

 

[JayHawk]

I'd look to the fact that Keith Alexander, and his deputy are being removed of their posts as a result of the Snowden revelations, matters now being discussed in Congress......towards reform of the NSAs surveillance activities.....to deny the removal of the NSAs two top officials has not been influenced by the Snowden revelations is to bury your head in the sand.....

I might agree with some of the statment but based on our previous interactions I will hafta assume your idea of reform will be the NSA operating in a manner you would approve of or perhaps under the approval of most other nations. The reform will be to bury our programs and the resultant intel under ten tons of secrecy like other programs. Essentially reducing the effective use to many agencies except the military and the military industrial complex (which includes the CIA, FBI and such). Clapper is leaving because this shit storm happened on his watch and optics state you must replace and reform. Or at least appear to do so.

Let me ask you this silly question. Little known facts, based on statutory requirements NO General Officer can reach such rank until they have served around 24 to 30 years. Do you think someone raised in our military culture and from relatively the same time period as Clapped will be any different in their approach? Trust me when I tell you they are not. You dont have to of course, but shaping expectations now will help you deal with the reality of it later. Cheers.

 

[kallipolis]

I will hafta assume your idea of reform will be the NSA operating in a manner you would approve of or perhaps under the approval of most other nations.

Congress, and The White House will reform the NSA....as it should be.....my thoughts are immaterial.

 

[EastMed]

I might agree with some of the statment but based on our previous interactions I will hafta assume your idea of reform will be the NSA operating in a manner you would approve of or perhaps under the approval of most other nations. The reform will be to bury our programs and the resultant intel under ten tons of secrecy like other programs. Essentially reducing the effective use to many agencies except the military and the military industrial complex (which includes the CIA, FBI and such). Clapper is leaving because this shit storm happened on his watch and optics state you must replace and reform. Or at least appear to do so.

Let me ask you this silly question. Little known facts, based on statutory requirements NO General Officer can reach such rank until they have served around 24 to 30 years. Do you think someone raised in our military culture and from relatively the same time period as Clapped will be any different in their approach? Trust me when I tell you they are not. You dont have to of course, but shaping expectations now will help you deal with the reality of it later. Cheers.

It appears then that Eisenhower's worries in 1961 were well-founded.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

 

[kallipolis]

General officers can be replaced, and should be when they over step their authority. I'm reminded that General Douglas MacArthur over reached his authority obliging President Truman to dismiss him. No general officer should be considered beyond the authority of a nation's elected officials.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/trivia/macarth.htm

I quote:

In 1951, President Truman and his advisors were preparing to engage North Korea and China in peace negotiations, in an attempt to resolve the ongoing conflict. General Douglas MacArthur, the commander of the U.N. forces in Korea, issued an unauthorized statement containing a veiled threat to expand the war into China if the Communist side refused to come to terms. When MacArthur continued to support an expansion of the war, communicating directly with a like-minded Republican congressman, Truman, with the backing of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as well as the Secretaries of State and Defense, felt they had no alternative but to replace MacArthur with a military commander who would act in concert with the administration�s foreign policy. On April 11, 1951, President Truman relieved MacArthur of his command.

 

[palbert]

From the blame game department:

The President distances himself from NSA after NSA gets testy:

"The president is a very deliberate consumer of the intelligence gathered for him on national security matters," said Carney. "But when the president wants to find out what the heads of state of friendly nations think, he calls them."

The White House comments followed an admission on Thursday from secretary of state John Kerry that some surveillance practices were carried out "on auto-pilot" and had not been known to the president. That was followed on Thursday night by the NSA director, Keith Alexander, blaming Kerry's own department for driving its spying on friendly world leaders.

"The intelligence agencies don't come up with the requirements. The policymakers come up with the requirements," Alexander said. "One of those groups would have been, let me think, hold on, oh: ambassadors."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/01/barack-obama-nsa-surveillance-foreign-leaders

From the we're all in this together department:

GCHQ and European spy agencies worked together on mass surveillance

Edward Snowden papers unmask close technical cooperation and loose alliance between British, German, French, Spanish and Swedish spy agencies

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden

Meanwhile speculation exists that NSA uses some of its programs (PRISM?) as a cover while actually collecting the original material surreptitiously. This would be akin to it "creating cover evidence" under the DEA's parallel construction (where this thread pretty much started out).

In light of this, PRISM is really just insurance: a way for the NSA to get legal cover for information it already has. My guess is that the NSA collects the vast majority of its data surreptitiously, using programs such as these. Then, when it has to share the information with the FBI or other organizations, it gets it again through a more public program like PRISM.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ion-it-obtains-via-network-infiltration.shtml

And, finally, Snowden's letter to Germany, offering to appear there to speak:

Though the outcome of my efforts has been demonstrably positive, my government continues to treat dissent as defection, and seeks to criminalize political speech with felony charges that provide no defense. However, speaking the truth is not a crime. I am confident that with the support of the international community, the government of the United States will abandon this harmful behavior. I hope that when the difficulties of this humanitarian situation have been resolved, I will be able to cooperate in the responsible finding of fact regarding reports in the media, particularly in regard to the truth and authenticity of documents, as appropriate and in accordance with the law.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/01/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-letter-germany

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/01/edward-snowden-letter-to-german-government-in-full-nsa (full text)

Almost too many developments to digest.

 

[kallipolis]

Keith Alexander's attempts to shift the blame to the State Department might well suggest that finger pointing will demonstrate that no one in the administration, and Congress knew what the NSA was actually doing, despite all the apparent safeguards in place that appeared to protect the general public from abuse of power by the military.

I've always enjoyed being educated by the lessons that can be learnt from this wonderful film...all general officers should view:

This clip is very impressive...also great acting:

Seven days in May

 

[JayHawk]

Congress, and The White House will reform the NSA....as it should be.....my thoughts are immaterial.

I couldnt agree more with this statement.

 

[JayHawk]

General officers can be replaced, and should be when they over step their authority. I'm reminded that General Douglas MacArthur over reached his authority obliging President Truman to dismiss him. No general officer should be considered beyond the authority of a nation's elected officials.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/trivia/macarth.htm




I quote:

You still fail utterly to address the previous concern i posted. Where will they find a general officer that isnt raised in the same midndset? They wont. Congress will make some fluff just as your leaders and particularly Germany will make some political hay, then it will go away.

I have thought for almost ten years we are foolish to still be in Germany. If they invite Snowden to their land to do anything other than arrest him then they should be treated like Russia and we should withdrawal our economic welfare and security support in the several thousand service members and based located there.

Of course, I have also felt for a long time that we need to extract our selves from the worlds affairs the way they want us to in many countries. Let them have it. Our drone technology is going to carriers .... we shouldnt need land much longer to sustain war - excuse me - police actions.

 

[palbert]

To my awareness we for the first time have absolute confirmation that David Miranda, Glenn Greenwald's partner was carrying substantial secret material when detained in England.

British authorities have said in court that items seized from Miranda included electronic media containing 58,000 documents from the U.S. National Security Agency and its British counterpart, Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...rorism-glenn-greenwald-british_n_4199838.html

Okay, so the Feds knew the secret was out and absolutely certain to be made public. Yet it appears no action was taken to mitigate the uproar and infighting.

Did the Feds shoot themselves in the foot, underestimate the uproar, think detaining Miranda would intimidate Greenwald or Poitras, think they had the cache? If so, they didn't have long to think it. So why is every day basically a surprise?

 

[Kulindahr]

Congress, and The White House will reform the NSA....as it should be.....my thoughts are immaterial.

Or they will appear to do so, anyway.

 

[JayHawk]

To my awareness we for the first time have absolute confirmation that David Miranda, Glenn Greenwald's partner was carrying substantial secret material when detained in England.



Okay, so the Feds knew the secret was out and absolutely certain to be made public. Yet it appears no action was taken to mitigate the uproar and infighting.

Did the Feds shoot themselves in the foot, underestimate the uproar, think detaining Miranda would intimidate Greenwald or Poitras, think they had the cache? If so, they didn't have long to think it. So why is every day basically a surprise?

The reason everyday is basically a surprise is because the government is not going to say what all they were doing and maybe sacrifice a program or relationship that would not be revealed. There is no telling when these stories will stop or who all could be contained in one method or another. So they will let the slow spiral. If it continues longer or becomes too damaging they will take the quicker solid shot to the face and admit all he took.

The sad thing is tracking software takes bandwidth, bandwidth reduces performance or it is locally hosted and can be defeated, so they have an issue containing data in the information age. They have to decide between efficacy of effort and potential leaks. Obviously in hindsight it is easy to say leaks were more damaging BUT from the other side it was easy to make the risk assessment, potential for a leak or potential for allowing an attack via slow work efficiency. Obviously defending attack was their mission so they fell on that side and accepted the risk.

I think the plan they will go to now is actually being developed large scale by HP and Google. Cloud storage where users are given precise access to the one area they are to be working. That could be accomplished with secure storage for the cloud as that new facility comes on line in the desert but was not feasible when everything was initiated in 2002.

 

[kallipolis]

You still fail utterly to address the previous concern i posted. Where will they find a general officer that isnt raised in the same midndset? They wont.

That you say, so?

 

[tigerfan482]

From the blame game department:

The President distances himself from NSA after NSA gets testy:

Actually, the President is doing what the European leaders are doing: putting on a show for the people so they feel a little better and then continuing on with business as usual.

From the we're all in this together department:

Where is the outrage? It's starting to look like General Alexander was indeed telling the truth the other day when saying those millions of communications in Europe weren't actually intercepted by NSA and were instead given to them by their foreign partners. Looks like France, Germany, Spain, and Sweden aren't innocent in this after all.

Meanwhile speculation exists that NSA uses some of its programs (PRISM?) as a cover while actually collecting the original material surreptitiously. This would be akin to it "creating cover evidence" under the DEA's parallel construction (where this thread pretty much started out).

You're really quoting a Tech Dirt article with such a classic phrase as "my guess" in it? Speculation exists on everything. What makes these wild guesses newsworthy in your eyes?

And, finally, Snowden's letter to Germany, offering to appear there to speak:

Almost too many developments to digest.

I'd say very few if any of these are developments. Maybe the one where where it shows that our "outraged" European friends are actually the ones doing the spying and sharing with the US, but the rest are either old news or not news at all.

Keith Alexander's attempts to shift the blame to the State Department might well suggest that finger pointing will demonstrate that no one in the administration, and Congress knew what the NSA was actually doing, despite all the apparent safeguards in place that appeared to protect the general public from abuse of power by the military.

I've always enjoyed being educated by the lessons that can be learnt from this wonderful film...all general officers should view:

This clip is very impressive...also great acting:

Seven days in May

When did General Alexander try to shift the blame to the State Department? I missed that one.

To my awareness we for the first time have absolute confirmation that David Miranda, Glenn Greenwald's partner was carrying substantial secret material when detained in England.

Okay, so the Feds knew the secret was out and absolutely certain to be made public. Yet it appears no action was taken to mitigate the uproar and infighting.

Did the Feds shoot themselves in the foot, underestimate the uproar, think detaining Miranda would intimidate Greenwald or Poitras, think they had the cache? If so, they didn't have long to think it. So why is every day basically a surprise?

Every day is only a surprise to you. I'm sure the NSA has known what was taken for months now and they're planning with all involved countries how to respond knowing what will come out. They probably had a big roundtable at the UN General Assembly helping each other write their outrage speeches and coming up with some mock legislation they could push in their respective governments to help the people feel better. With all of this information coming out, have you seen any concrete action by any country to do anything to stop it or have you just seen a lot of talk and "proposed" legislation and resolutions that go nowhere?

 

[palbert]

... With all of this information coming out, have you seen any concrete action by any country to do anything to stop it or have you just seen a lot of talk and "proposed" legislation and resolutions that go nowhere?

I see talk of the internet fracturing or being balkanized. The only impediment to that happening is money.

NSA surveillance may cause breakup of internet, warn experts

The vast scale of online surveillance revealed by Edward Snowden is leading to the breakup of the internet as countries scramble to protect private or commercially sensitive emails and phone records from UK and US security services, according to experts and academics.
...
Daniel Castro, a senior analyst at the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation in Washington, said the Snowden revelations were pushing the internet towards a tipping point with huge ramifications for the way online communications worked.

Castro said that as the scale of the UK and US surveillance operations became apparent, countries around the globe were considering laws that would attempt to keep data in-country, threatening the cloud system – where data stored by US internet firms is accessible from anywhere in the world.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/01/nsa-surveillance-cause-internet-breakup-edward-snowden

And the tech giants are none to happy that their brand and business is being tarnished.

 

[JayHawk]

Palbert, regarding the internet, well it could fracture but that would just set up a caste system where the things people want on on the system they are supposed to hate. I would like to see the competition though.

Kallipolis,
I dont know if you follow trends but when you lose an argument and have nothing more to add you always drop in a "so you say so" .... to add to my comments I would just say grow the fuck up and respond like an adult to questions. You mention Ike warning us, you mention Generals gone amok, you even mention the need occasionally to replace those that have let power go to their head. You fail to ever explain where a general that isn't steeped in the same system is going to come from since your average general officer is some where between 24 to 30 years in the service. I agree with you on Ike and on the need for replacement occasionally. Acting like a child and stomping your foot doesn't help your argument it just devalues your postings. Have fun!

 

[kallipolis]

When did General Alexander try to shift the blame to the State Department? I missed that one.

Did you miss that one?

Here's the news report, reporting Alexander's remarks:

"The president is a very deliberate consumer of the intelligence gathered for him on national security matters," said Carney. "But when the president wants to find out what the heads of state of friendly nations think, he calls them."

The White House comments followed an admission on Thursday from secretary of state John Kerry that some surveillance practices were carried out "on auto-pilot" and had not been known to the president. That was followed on Thursday night by the NSA director, Keith Alexander, blaming Kerry's own department for driving its spying on friendly world leaders.

"The intelligence agencies don't come up with the requirements. The policymakers come up with the requirements," Alexander said. "One of those groups would have been, let me think, hold on, oh: ambassadors."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...oreign-leaders

 

[kallipolis]

I agree with you on Ike and on the need for replacement occasionally.

Even you, are waking up to the facts.....that's progress.....

 

[palbert]

Palbert, regarding the internet, well it could fracture but that would just set up a caste system where the things people want on on the system they are supposed to hate. I would like to see the competition though.

We are really in new technology waters: embassies going back to typewriters, hand deliveries, and intercepts or pop-ups saying "you are now entering a NSA monitored area," which some countries are exploring.

At the UN Germany and Brazil are advancing a non-binding resolution on privacy, expected to garner widespread support. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-germany-brazil-un-resolution

Errata: I saw one report that the US in collaboration Australia thought it a coup to get the unlisted number of Bali's police chief. How far down the totem pole does the collection go? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-australia-bali-conference-spy-indonesia

Errata 2: Europe is beginning to recognize that its demonization of Snowden was misguided or ill-founded, with (newly born) activist talk of actually granting him asylum. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/03/germany-edward-snowden-asylum

Errata 3: I continue to regard Rep. Mike Rogers and Sen. Diana Feinstein as the most dangerous persons in America.

 

[JayHawk]

Even you, are waking up to the facts.....that's progress.....

I have been in tune with the facts all along, just waiting to see what all you people discover. I study Presidents as a hobby so you Ike revelations are not revelations at all. So are you ever gonna take a stab at the question I have asked now three times in a row? Or are you getting your training from republicans so when presented with harsh realities you go "lallalallalalallalla" with your hand over your ears.