Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benediction

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

JackFTwist


Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benediction
but I suppose because Rev Joe Lowery is black, a lot of posters here can't see him and know not a damn thing about him and besides what does this matter to the haters

and this forum is well known for trashing on pro gay African American ministers

December 19th, 2008, 08:34 PM #2 marleyisalegend​

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Let's see if this gets four threads and hundreds of replies in two days. Let's see how many proclamations are made that we need to fire off letters of gratitude to Obama and his camp. I hope this one doesn't fade into Archive Oblivion.​

Oh lord.

Here come the victims.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Nazis and Clan men have killed. Warren is not a murderer and does not support the concentration and murder of gay people. This is an unrealistic analogy.

Not all Nazis and Clan men have killed.

Some homophobes have killed.

I think it's not okay for our President-elect to invite any Nazis or Clan men or vocal anti-gay bigots, whether or not they've killed, to participate in the inauguration.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Frankly I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing all these outrageous comparisons that are truly apples and oranges. There's got to be a better way to get your point across than comparing one sorta bad thing to an extremely bad thing.

Yes we know all about the chip on your shoulder from black oppression, and other oppression just doesn't measure up in your opinion.

Homosexuals have been oppressed, discriminated against, belittled, mocked, denigrated, denied rights, outcast, murdered because they're gay for thousands of years. I call that more than a "sorta bad thing."

And now the black President-elect gays help elect who promosed change and says he's commited to gay equality invites, to open the inauguration, a homophobic preacher who worked hard to successfully help convince voters (many of whom were black Democrats) to again slash the rights and privileges of gays. But you're okay with that.

Turning oppression and discrimination into a contest, a competition against another oppressed minority, only fosters division of power within those oppressed groups and advantages those who seek power over them. We are stronger when we're united, not when blacks insist their discrimination is worse than ours, or when blacks vote against us as black Democrats did in large numbres on Prop 8 while gays overwhelmingly voted for a black President.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

But marches, "Thank you for supporting gay rights" letters and things of that nature are rare delicacies.

After helping to pass Prop 8 while gays helped elect Obama, African Americans may have to wait a while for their thank you letter from the gay community. And arguing that blacks have had it worse than we have, while we're still fighting for civil rights blacks acquired years ago, doesn't help.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

I respect your opinion. Mine is that Warren falls within a reasonable buffer of tolerance. If Obama had invited Phelps I would be calling for an immeadiate impeachment.
Oh I didn't mean to say all Nazis and Clan men were killers, only some.

And some homophobes are killers.

It's wrong for someone claiming to support gay equality, promising change and unity, to invite homophobic leaders any more than racist leaders or anti-Semitic leaders.

I don't see that Warren is any better than Phelps. Warren used his influence --and co-opted Obama's name-- to help pass Prop 8. That's important and it's specifically relevant to the last election, the victory many celebrated with Obama winning and the defeat many suffered with the passage of Prop 8.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

What about the fact that in the black churches they were misinformed about the consequences of not passing prop8 (like being told churches would have to perform gay marriages if prop8 didn't pass) Is it possible cali blacks were manipulated into voting 70% yes on prop8?

That's no excuse.

We're all responsible for the choices we make.

Many whites were manipulated with misinformation into becoming racists; that doesn't excuse the racist choices they made that hurt blacks.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

We won't know that until we're actually united, so far it's just a theory.

It's not just a theory.

In the 1980s, especially the mid-80s, white and black gays were largely united because of AIDS. The battles were led mostly by white gays but we were brought together because black (and Hispanic) gays with AIDS were abandoned wholesale by their homophobic communities and needed us. And many of us didn't hesitate to open ourselves and our resources, and give our time and caring. It may not have been ideal circumstances, and only by necessity, but we were united for a little while. It strengthened us and it strengthened our power to accomplish.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

So the entire black population of the US gets the cold shoulder because of one state?

It wasn't one state. It happened in Florida as well. And there is no groundswell of support for gay equality from the African American community anywhere in the nation. It's wonderful when it comes, and I for one am very grateful when it does, but the resentment, rather than assistance and support, from the African American community towards gay equality is nationwide.

I don't remember using the word "worse", could you point that out to me?

You wrote, "Frankly I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing all these outrageous comparisons that are truly apples and oranges. There's got to be a better way to get your point across than comparing one sorta bad thing to an extremely bad thing."

Between "one sorta bad thing" and an "extremely bad thing," one is worse.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Part of the argument as I heard it on TV is that african americans are more conditioned to follow orders from a revered authority. They have a more group, follow the pack mentality. These are not my words but part of what was said to explain the huge % voting for prop8.

That sounds somewhat insulting, from the way I read it anyway, though I'm sure you don't mean it to be. But I don't know what generalization, specifically, it refers to.

I think it goes back to the power and influence the black church has had on the African American community because of the church's role in civil rights. Just my opinion.

I'm not saying it is an excuse but perhaps if properly informed, blacks could swing the vote the other way as a group?

Yep. They could. That's why I kept saying the gay community should press Obama, before the election, to stand with us and tell his crowds to stand with us as we were standing with them, vote to overturn Prop 8. But Obama supporters said no he'll lose the election if he does that, wait until after he's elected then he'll take action to help gay equality. Now he's elected and the action he's taking is to embrace a man who used Obama's name to help pass Prop 8.

And if Obama can get through to them and make use of his new relationship with Warren perhaps Obama can get some relaxing in the CA religious group on prop8.

Warren's never going to change his mind about same sex marriage and neither are 99% of the people who follow him.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

JUB has archives full of evidence to the contrary. There's clearly a divide in the gay community.

Yes there definitely is, today.

I wasn't old enough to cross the street at the end of the 80s so I can't agree or disagree, but if you're right, then something VERY bad happened in the 90s cuz now the division is as wide as the grand canyon.

Yep.

This reminds me of all those old-school sitcoms where the white hero and heroin come along to help the displaced blacks who are clearly incapable of helping themselves.

You can be reminded of whatever you want. I was one of the whites who took the subway way uptown month after month after month, with bags of groceries and books and cassettes and videos, and spent countless hours with HIV+ black and Hispanic gays while they told me about being abandoned by their families and communities. That's my experience, which was not unique among the gay men I knew, and it was no sitcom.

You see how one-sided this is? All your comments about the white community are about how caring and helpful your are, and all your comments about the black community are essentially "Traitors!" This is entirely one-sided, coincidentally, in your favor. You really don't see that?

I see how one sided it is, and almost didn't post it for that reason. But it's the truth of what happened, of what was needed and what was offered. And I'm not painting anybody as a traitor. The people who vote against Prop 8 are not the people my friends and I helped, they're the people who abandoned the people we helped.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Good point. It seems to extend beyond the Cali prop 8 thing. This is scary. Could Obama identify with the gay bigotry in the african american community and say all the gay rights stuff for political reasons? You have an interesting point Nick and Im willing to listen if you are willing to explain further.

I don't know if Obama identifies with gay bigotry in the African American community. Just speaking from my gut, I've never sensed that from him.

The problem with Obama, IMO, is that he's unprincipled and narcissistic. His concern is always about himself and what a choice or decision will mean in fulfilling his ambition, what he wants for himself.

In my opinion Obama doesn't care about gay equality, and anything he's done or will do on that score is purely for political reasons. That's the reason I believe the gay community has be vocal and persistent and very assertive about what we want from him.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

I can see how you can misconstrue my point and come to that conclusion. I'll concede that much, but I still stand firm that I don't think "worse" is an appropriate word to use here no matter how many times you shovel it into my mouth.

I've shoveled nothing into your mouth, I responded to the words you wrote. And you ought to educate yourself about English usage because I did not misconstrue the meaning of your words.

Comparing a "sorta bad thing" and an "extremely bad thing," the extremely bad thing is reasonably and correctly construed as worse.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

You did catch I was paraphrasing others on a tv show? No? Yes?

Yes I caught that. And I'm not criticizing you or them; I'm just saying how it sounded to me and that I don't think I understand what's behind it.

People have come around on a lot of issues. Never say never.

That's true.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

What group doesn't? Individualism died ages ago my friend.

Nah. We're rare now it's true but there are still a few of us individualists around.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Good for you. Must have been like a plague.

It felt like the plague. And most of America turned their backs on us for a long time. The upside to what happened is it united a lot of gays, all races and socio-educational-economic levels, in a common cause bonding us even closer than in the 70s, and we'd bonded very close in the gay-liberation 70s. It was one of those life events that are the worst and the best at once.

All of sudden bunch of people had a disease they didnt know existed right before.

Even all these years later, just reading that one sentence makes me cry, remembering the helplessness and confusion and fear in their eyes, my friends one after another. I was 25 when it started.

But I don't say that to bring on a pity party. It wasn't just gloomy, sickness and memorial services, we also had a great time in those years, partied and worked and loved and lusted. And the level of trust and reliability among us was the highest I've ever known, nothing like today -- maybe that's one reason honesty and honorableness are so important to me. Who knows.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

I secretly agree with you. But a lot of my gay friends want marriage, word and all. Somehow "civilly unioned" or "domestically partnered" just doesn't have the zing of we're "married"

It's a "separate but equal" thing.

Personally I couldn't care less and have no intention of marrying. My partner and I have been together 17 years and can marry in the state we live in. We don't want to. But we should have the right to.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

I guess Im used to Christians and they don't really bother me. Ive heard homosexuality is a sin but we love our gay brothers a million times. Obama is christian and he has every right to have a prayer read by a christian reverend IMO.

It's not that Warren is a Christian, it's that he's actively homophobic (won't even let gays who're "unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle" in his church) and worked to get Prop 8 passed, using Obama's name and Obama's opposition to same sex marriage to help make his case.

As much as gay men want Obama to be all about gay rights they cant expect him to drop his religion.

Americans have a right to expect our President to drop his religion, if necessary, when it comes to protecting equal rights for all Americans.

 

[Passion4Muzik]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

Interesting. Im on the fence. I like Obama, I think he is smart, but I see the manipulative gears spinning with him too. I don't get an anti-gay vibe either but I don't get that he really cares about gay rights. I don't see this Warren thing as a big deal but Im not gay so I don't feel a slap in the face. A straight female friend of mine thought Obama was an absolute tool for picking Warren. I guess Im used to Christians and they don't really bother me. Ive heard homosexuality is a sin but we love our gay brothers a million times. Obama is christian and he has every right to have a prayer read by a christian reverend IMO. As much as gay men want Obama to be all about gay rights they cant expect him to drop his religion.

Barack Obama and Gay Rights in Illinois:

Barack Obama supported gay rights during his Illinois Senate tenure. He sponsored legislation in Illinois that would ban discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Barack Obama in the United States Senate:

Every two years the Human Rights Campaign, the largest national gay and lesbian organization, issues a scorecard for members of the Senate based on their sponsorship and voting on key issues of importance to gay and lesbian citizens. Barack Obama scored 89 out of 100% in the 2006 scorecard. Here's how HRC rated Barack Obama:
Barack Obama on Hate Crimes:

Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.
Employment Non-Discrimination:

Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes it should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity.
Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Gays in the Military:

Barack Obama believes we need to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. His campaign literature says, "The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve."
Gay & Lesbian Adoption:

Barack Obama believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.
Barack Obama and Gay Marriage/ Civil Unions:

Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."


Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples, as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized.
"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/BarackObama.htm

 

[justapixel]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

blah blah blah

Just admit it.

Obama wanted our votes. He got them even though I warned you about him.

Then once elected, he threw us under the bus.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama picks PRO Gaymarriage clergy for benedic

This is a paltry list to demonstrate Obama's support of gay equality.

Everything's just words except one vote and two pieces of legislation that I've never been able to find to research Obama's real role in them.

Barack Obama and Gay Rights in Illinois:

Barack Obama supported gay rights during his Illinois Senate tenure. He sponsored legislation in Illinois that would ban discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

I've seen this claim before and am leery of the way it's worded and how much Obama had to do with it.

I've never been able to find the legislation they're talking about or a history of how it came about and who did what work on it. Unless someone here can tell me exactly which legislation is being referred to so I can find out what he had to do with it, I don't give this any points.

Barack Obama in the United States Senate:

Every two years the Human Rights Campaign, the largest national gay and lesbian organization, issues a scorecard for members of the Senate based on their sponsorship and voting on key issues of importance to gay and lesbian citizens. Barack Obama scored 89 out of 100% in the 2006 scorecard. Here's how HRC rated Barack Obama:
Barack Obama on Hate Crimes:

Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Again, I've never been able to find the law or any history about who did what, only this claim. If this is something Obama took the initiative to do and got it passed I think he deserves major kudos; if, on the other hand, it's something he got his name attached to so he could take credit for other people's work, not so much. And knowing Obama, I bet it's the latter. Prove me wrong and I'll give Obama a huge hand for his accomplishment.

Employment Non-Discrimination:

Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes it should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity.

That's very sweet of him.

But it's just words.

Get back to me when he takes action to make this happen.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Gays in the Military:

Barack Obama believes we need to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. His campaign literature says, "The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve."

Again, sweet of him but just words.

Get back to me when he takes action to make this happen.

Gay & Lesbian Adoption:

Barack Obama believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Just words.

Where's the action?

What'd he do in Illinois to make this happen?

Barack Obama and Gay Marriage/ Civil Unions:

Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

Yeah. Not so sweet.

I don't give a shit about Barack Obama's religious beliefs, or anybody else's. The benefits, rights and privileges gays want aren't religious, they're Federal -- and since we pay equal share of taxes we're entitled to equal share of benefits.

Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

To the first, so did John McCain.

To the second, he didn't vote, so, like his easy opposition to the Iraq resolution, it doesn't mean anything to me. With a different voting record it might mean something, but once he could vote in the US Senate Obama proved more than once that he didn't vote the way he'd said he would (for example Iraq war funding and FISA).

He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples,

He said ... he said ... he said ...

He's been a State Senator, a US Senator and now a President-elect ...... tell me what he's DONE, not what he's said and not followed with action.

Just words.

as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized.

John "more of the same" McCain supported the same thing.

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."

"Giving" us "a set of basic rights"???

I don't need to be GIVEN any rights, they're mine. And "a set of basic rights"? How about full equal rights. They're mine and bullying majorities have been denying them to me. Barack Obama, an African American who's supposedly a Constitutional lawyer, ought to understand that and fight for equal rights for everyone. He doesn't.

"Giving them a set of basic rights ..." That really is outrageous condescension. I don't want him to "give" me anything and I don't want him to tolerate me. I want equal access to every right and opportunity every other law abiding tax paying American adult has.

In light of the tremendous support he got from gays, this list is an embarrassment. I keep being reminded of why I kept telling gays to demand something from Obama before election day.