Obama rejects Keystone oil pipeline

[bankside]

Refining in Alberta sounds well and good but we'd still need to export the final product

I believe the reason behind refining it in the Gulf Coast is logistical - what America doesn't need can be shipped elsewhere

Wouldn't that be the point behind Port of Prince Rupert?

Refine in Edmonton, use the energy to develop Canada's economy instead of someone else's, and what Canada doesn't need can be shipped to China.

If you read JayHawk's linked article about approving these kinds of projects in the national interest, it's in our interest to both refine here and have more than one customer.

 

[M4P]

bankside, I'm unsure why they've chosen the option of shipping the unrefined product

One way or another a pipeline will be built - either west to Prince Rupert for shipping to China and Asia or south to the United States.

 

[Kulindahr]

Of course, the oil industry does not want more refinery capacity. The hurricane season or a shut down refinery allow them to spike the price of petroleum products with regularity.

But I guess crude is crude. It is what the market craves and no cost is too high to get it there.

Actually the oil industry has been fighting since Reagan's time to try to get one or two new refineries built. Bush ordered the process "streamlined", which worked about as well as ordering a pie made from stale apples to be "delicious."

I know how to get one built fast: pick a shuttered military base and just do it.

One way or another a pipeline will be built - either west to Prince Rupert for shipping to China and Asia or south to the United States.

That's something a lot of people have overlooked: it's going to be done; the only question is who will benefit. From a national security standpoint, the US should be right on this.

 

[bankside]

Actually the oil industry has been fighting since Reagan's time to try to get one or two new refineries built. Bush ordered the process "streamlined", which worked about as well as ordering a pie made from stale apples to be "delicious."

I know how to get one built fast: pick a shuttered military base and just do it.



That's something a lot of people have overlooked: it's going to be done; the only question is who will benefit. From a national security standpoint, the US should be right on this.

From the viewpoint of whose national security?

bankside, I'm unsure why they've chosen the option of shipping the unrefined product

One way or another a pipeline will be built - either west to Prince Rupert for shipping to China and Asia or south to the United States.

My guess would be startup costs and expected profit margins. Chinese and American capital are more interested in keeping the profits from those secondary efforts in their home markets. I'm sure if we were stupid enough to just drive the dump trucks full of sand down they'd be happy to clean it and crack it too.

That does not mean a Canadian-only operation would be a bad venture or that it would be unprofitable; it is probably an 8th of a point difference in expected return or something like that. I think we should do it.

BTW I'm not sure the US needs more refining capacity from some old news reports I remember, but it's been a while.

 

[JayHawk]

Bankside we don't need refining capacity but we need refining diversity as it were. The majority of our refining capacity is located in a few key spots.

As far as National Security interest. Kuli was of course referencing the United States interest and in building additional capacity to provide diversity and by developing the infrastructure to handle the LAST form of fossil fuel extraction we would be accomplishing both of those goals.

The ideas are currently to do so through the US and I suggested it would go west and remain nationalized in Canada. However neither Kuli or I will make those decisions that is up to your government and your industry to work out. There are very good reasons that Canada maintains such strong alliance with the US. So I would say you angst at anyone in the US mentioning their National interest is misplaced. Try taking a look in the mirror.

Oh and I like i said earlier.... All the oil is ours havent we proven that over and over and over.... jeesh.

 

[Kulindahr]

Bankside we don't need refining capacity but we need refining diversity as it were. The majority of our refining capacity is located in a few key spots.

According to reports I've seen we do need more capacity as well as geographical diversity. We've been running on the same capacity for at least a couple of decades, while demand has risen.

As far as National Security interest. Kuli was of course referencing the United States interest and in building additional capacity to provide diversity and by developing the infrastructure to handle the LAST form of fossil fuel extraction we would be accomplishing both of those goals.

I thought the grammar made my meaning clear.

The ideas are currently to do so through the US and I suggested it would go west and remain nationalized in Canada. However neither Kuli or I will make those decisions that is up to your government and your industry to work out. There are very good reasons that Canada maintains such strong alliance with the US. So I would say you angst at anyone in the US mentioning their National interest is misplaced. Try taking a look in the mirror.

Prosperous neighbors are also in the U.S. national interest (which is why I favor tax penalties against those moving jobs out of the US., but only token ones for moving them to Canada or Mexico).

 

[bankside]

Bankside we don't need refining capacity but we need refining diversity as it were. The majority of our refining capacity is located in a few key spots.

As far as National Security interest. Kuli was of course referencing the United States interest and in building additional capacity to provide diversity and by developing the infrastructure to handle the LAST form of fossil fuel extraction we would be accomplishing both of those goals.

The ideas are currently to do so through the US and I suggested it would go west and remain nationalized in Canada. However neither Kuli or I will make those decisions that is up to your government and your industry to work out. There are very good reasons that Canada maintains such strong alliance with the US. So I would say you angst at anyone in the US mentioning their National interest is misplaced. Try taking a look in the mirror.

Oh and I like i said earlier.... All the oil is ours havent we proven that over and over and over.... jeesh.

The key analysis of my national interest is that Canada needs more than one robust market. That doesn't stop us from being good neighbours with the States or continuing to build our trading relationship and our joint security interests haven't changed.

But imagine if Canada said to you "Hey forget that 'energy diversity' bullshit - we're your energy provider and we should be your one and only energy provider...so stop trying to tie up deals with rare metal exporters in South America that you need for your renewable electrics industry and rely only on our oilsands. It's in your interests too!"

You'd still be laughing. And Canada needs broader markets.

 

[M4P]

Oh and I like i said earlier.... All the oil is ours havent we proven that over and over and over.... jeesh.

Smart ass

Something you also have to keep in mind is American oil companies have a lot invested in the oil sands. It isn't just Canadian oil companies. You can bet they're lobbying the US government to get this project moving again

 

[Kulindahr]

Smart ass

Something you also have to keep in mind is American oil companies have a lot invested in the oil sands. It isn't just Canadian oil companies. You can bet they're lobbying the US government to get this project moving again

This would have already been approved if they'd hired a company without a financial interest in the project to do the required study for the pipeline.

 

[M4P]

This would have already been approved if they'd hired a company without a financial interest in the project to do the required study for the pipeline.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It was all about politics

 

[JayHawk]

The key analysis of my national interest is that Canada needs more than one robust market. That doesn't stop us from being good neighbours with the States or continuing to build our trading relationship and our joint security interests haven't changed.

But imagine if Canada said to you "Hey forget that 'energy diversity' bullshit - we're your energy provider and we should be your one and only energy provider...so stop trying to tie up deals with rare metal exporters in South America that you need for your renewable electrics industry and rely only on our oilsands. It's in your interests too!"

You'd still be laughing. And Canada needs broader markets.

I agree and it is a nod towards the investments of the American oil companies and the friendship that exist between our country that the initial pipe head south. I believe it still will. However Canada would be foolhardy to not diversify as well.

Smart ass

Something you also have to keep in mind is American oil companies have a lot invested in the oil sands. It isn't just Canadian oil companies. You can bet they're lobbying the US government to get this project moving again

I've heard that before... somewhere.

 

[JayHawk]

Yeah I agree this was all politics. You can't have a job creating POTUS authorized project. Why do you think the Republican state disagreed with it enough to hold off until say august...

then if it is approved you can never tout the numbers because the race will be over before the work and measurable employment numbers come rolling in.

 

[bankside]

Smart ass

Something you also have to keep in mind is American oil companies have a lot invested in the oil sands. It isn't just Canadian oil companies. You can bet they're lobbying the US government to get this project moving again

It isn't just American companies either; China finally has a foot in the door.

I agree and it is a nod towards the investments of the American oil companies and the friendship that exist between our country that the initial pipe head south. I believe it still will. However Canada would be foolhardy to not diversify as well.

Yeah, and it obviously isn't a bad idea for us to sell to places near us. If you can just pipe the product to market vs. piping it to a port, putting it in a boat, and floating it to market, there is very likely more room for profit.

Here's how the analysis is playing out here:

From the Globe and Mail:
Green groups on both sides of the border are vowing to keep up pressure on the Achilles heel of the Canadian oil industry – the multibillion-dollar pipelines needed to transport Canadian crude to markets in the U.S. and Asia. In doing so, the environmental groups are rushing headlong into a confrontation with the Conservative government, which is determined to get a pipeline built through British Columbia and has criticized foreign critics as troublesome “special interests” who have no business getting involved.

There is this foolish idea that all of Canada has been dug up to send dirty oil to the States. For your convenience, here is the site which holds the world's second largest oil reserves after Saudi Arabia. I suggest you look at it and then for a sense of scale,just keep zooming out until you run out of Canada to zoom away from.

http://maps.google.ca/?ll=57.122823,-111.287384&spn=0.575512,0.995636&t=h&z=10&vpsrc=6

There is this notion that Canada is a major emitter of CO2. Well, any time you have a prosperous country in northern boreal climactic zones, you can bet that people will opt not to freeze to death just to lower CO2 emissions.

We assume that eventually nobody will use oil to heat their homes or run their economy or manufacture goods that create emissions. Until that day, we're going to sell the stuff.

But we are getting better at limiting the impact. Billions are being invested in carbon sequestration technology to push the CO2 back underground to stop it from affecting the atmosphere. This will also ensure we don't have to use fresh water to force more oil to the surface at conventional sites. And Alberta, home of the oil patch, is also home to Canada's largest wind energy installations. We are looking to the future: Canada exports incredible amounts of renewable hydroelectric power to the States. There is no reason for Alberta's position as an energy supplier to change, but suddenly stopping the use of oil would cripple the economic capacity to make it happen and drive our trading parters out of business along with ourselves.

"Anti-oil" does not make as much sense as "oil reforms."