Occupy Wall Street

[palemale]

The republicans can rot in hell. Hopefully the democrats will join them.

Students have a choice. If you choose to take on $140k in debt going to an expensive private school, tough shit. You're on your own. They made that choice, and they have to live with it. You don't hear me bitching about my loans, do you? I made a choice to go to a private school, knowing full well it cost more, and knowing full well the burden I'd have after graduation. Its called personal responsibility; you should educate yourself on it, and so should these people. I find it extraordinarily insulting that these people think that they are somehow special enough that they have the right to complain about a choice they made on their own. Anyone that's ever taken responsibility for their own actions should be insulted too.

They aren't protesting against student debt, they're protesting against a failed, democratic system that has been completely corrupted by corporate interests, and that only serves the interests of the wealthy and the powerful. We have watched, for over thirty years, as our government has presided over a huge transfer of wealth from the middle and working classes to the wealthy. The system is rigged, and it is destroying the country. The overwhelming greed of corporate executives knows no bounds, it even blinds them to the reality that, one day, their greed will kill the geese that laid the golden egg, and there will be no United States as the richest and most powerful country on earth, fueling economic growth both here and abroad, but rather a pathetic, weak, banana republic unable to provide for the most basic necessities of its people, much less be an engine for world wide economic prosperity.

 

[JB3]

If you don't stand on the street and shout it, who will hear your voice?

When your letters to representatives fall on deaf ears, when your governors are puppets for lobbyists and corporations, when the media is too busy playing sensationalist nonsense to address real issues and ask real questions, what other course of action will get the attention of the public, the media and your government?

The problem is that the government does not care how loudly you shout, the message will not get through.

And shouting on the street is not the way to win over the majority that can actually effect change. In fact, its one of the surest ways to lose their support quickly.

 

[JB3]

They aren't protesting against student debt, they're protesting against a failed, democratic system that has been completely corrupted by corporate interests, and that only serves the interests of the wealthy and the powerful. We have watched, for over thirty years, as our government has presided over a huge transfer of wealth from the middle and working classes to the wealthy. The system is rigged, and it is destroying the country. The overwhelming greed of corporate executives knows no bounds, it even blinds them to the reality that, one day, their greed will kill the geese that laid the golden egg, and there will be no United States as the richest and most powerful country on earth, fueling economic growth both here and abroad, but rather a pathetic, weak, banana republic unable to provide for the most basic necessities of its people, much less be an engine for world wide economic prosperity.

And how do you propose to fix this? Are you going to continue to advocate for entitlement programs that are accelerating the decline, as you have in the past?

 

[Kulindahr]

Is W running in 2012? The point went right over your head.

Bush is the only one the point fits.

Democracy has not failed. Usually you're more rational than this Kuli. The government is in the midst of investigating and prosecuting those that broke the law in relation to the financial collapse. You know that. So why the irrational hand-wringing?

The only government I've seen that might actually be moving to prosecute anyone is California, which said "No!" to the bankers' plea for an amnesty.

 

[Kulindahr]

We have a Supreme Court that has granted "personhood" to corporations, thereby enabling them to complete their takeover of corporate takeover of government.

That was done a century ago.

If you're referring to the Citizens United case, the Court specifically stated that the point did not rest on whether corporations are persons. They then employed reasoning that stands even in corporations are held to be not persons, by noting that the guarantee of free speech is absolute, and not restricted by the Constitution to persons.

That's really inane reasoning, seeing how they use the different amendments to weaken the others all the time, but there it is.

 

[andysayshi]

The problem is that the government does not care how loudly you shout, the message will not get through.

It's not just the Government you are shouting to. Protest wins hearts and minds, it encourages support and commitment, and it helps build solidarity.

And shouting on the street is not the way to win over the majority that can actually effect change. In fact, its one of the surest ways to lose their support quickly.

On the contrary, protest is probably the most effective way to achieve change. Most of the significant developments in social history can be related to the actions of people who have stood up and shouted their demands.

1920 - US Women finally achieve the right to vote

1960s - US Civil Rights Protests

Late 60s - Vietnam Protests

Stonewall Riot and subsequent protests spur the Gay Rights movement

 

[JB3]

Bush is the only one the point fits.

See: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The single biggest funneling of public money into private hands, at the mandate of the government, in American history.

The only government I've seen that might actually be moving to prosecute anyone is California, which said "No!" to the bankers' plea for an amnesty.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/29/business/la-fi-goldman-probe-20100429
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/07/new-york-prosecutors-wide_n_951795.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/25/citi-sec-idUSN2511723920110225
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...on-targets-Lehman-AIG-Fannie-and-Freddie.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indus...03-12-lehman-brothers-accounting-tricks_N.htm

I could keep going on and on, but the fact is most of the investigations are continuing as we speak.

 

[Kulindahr]

Now many of them are crawling back to beg for more help because the toxic debt they were to have dealt with was not dealt with in any shape or form. The government is at fault in this instance as well. The TARP directed that they raise one dollar for every two they paid back to the government. The FED and FDIC relaxed that requirement so they could pay the exec's the big bonuses. SO once again proving how bought and paid for our politicians are in this country. To our President's credit, so far he is telling them to FAIL. He is correct. Let them fucking fail and lets get it over with.

I'd tell them they can have help on two conditions:

1. When they're healthy again, they'll get busted into at least twenty pieces each.

2. They have to support a constitutional amendment defining political rights as pertaining only to individual human beings, and specifying that no other entities may contribute financially or through speech or press in the political process.

 

[JB3]

It's not just the Government you are shouting to. Protest wins hearts and minds, it encourages support and commitment, and it helps build solidarity.



On the contrary, protest is probably the most effective way to achieve change. Most of the significant developments in social history can be related to the actions of people who have stood up and shouted their demands.

Eh. Those protests, in fact, were not responsible for it. You think the protests were the reason for the Civil Rights act? No. It was things like MLK's speech on the national mall, and the peaceful (and relatively quiet) marches. The image of peaceful protesters singing as they try and cross a bridge, and getting sprayed with fire hoses by police, is infinitely more powerful than an image of screaming hordes being arrested en masse at the entrance to a bridge in New York.

Shouting turns people off. It doesn't win hearts or minds, especially when its a disorganized mess with no coherent message. The vietnam protests are perhaps the worst example you could possibly use, because they did the absolute opposite of what you're claiming. They turned more people OFF of their message than it did turn them against the war. Protesters dishonoring the service of military men during that period did more damage to their cause than you could ever imagine.

You want to know how to fix this mess? It isn't by blocking a bridge or screaming your head off. Its by organizing a substantive grass roots organization that can spread the message and win the majority to their side. That's how the Civil Rights movement worked. That's how the Suffrage movement worked. And it is the ONLY way change is going to be effected in this situation.

 

[Kulindahr]

Being foreclosed upon? Well, did you actually think through whether you would be able to afford that mortgage? The lack of personal responsibility here is astonishing.

When the banks make calculating the real cost of mortgages as complex as possible, and when the only ones who can explain it all top you are the banks, then it's a con game. And the government is in on the game.

Where are people supposed to exercise this personal responsibility when the rules are set up to make it impossible?

 

[Kulindahr]

The republicans can rot in hell. Hopefully the democrats will join them.

Students have a choice. If you choose to take on $140k in debt going to an expensive private school, tough shit. You're on your own. They made that choice, and they have to live with it. You don't hear me bitching about my loans, do you? I made a choice to go to a private school, knowing full well it cost more, and knowing full well the burden I'd have after graduation. Its called personal responsibility; you should educate yourself on it, and so should these people. I find it extraordinarily insulting that these people think that they are somehow special enough that they have the right to complain about a choice they made on their own. Anyone that's ever taken responsibility for their own actions should be insulted too.

When they've been bombarded by politician after politician with the message that they have to go to college if they want to succeed in life, and the system is set up so the only way they can do that is by massive loans, what are they supposed to do?

But there's a worse problem: your system, where only the rich could go to college, would cripple the U.S. economy.


BTW, you missed an item in your 'things to be done' list: without a constitutional amendment declaring that only human beings have political rights, and barring any involvement whatsoever by any entities which are not human beings from financial involvement in politics, none of the rest will help.

 

[Kulindahr]

DEFECT? The point is that the government has failed to control the greed of the oligarchs who have destroyed the US economy to enrich themselves. It is not a Republican or Democrat issue any more. We have given both parties control in the last decade, and they both have failed the American people. When the Republicans controlled the White House and Congress, they started a needless war that has cost us $1.3 trillion and counting. They made tax cuts that have cost $2.3 trillion, with the rationale that they would bring economic prosperity. Well, there's a defect. When the Democrats were in power, they failed to fix any of it, and made a failed attempt at desperately needed public health plan. With a Democrat President and Republican Congress, they spend all their time grandstanding while we poor cocksuckers are starving to death, and our credit rating skids.

1% of the population controls between 40 and 50% of the wealth. Median household income dropped 2.3% between 2009 and 2010. 46.2 million Americans live in poverty, and it is growing. Unemployment seems unstoppable, and none of the statistics show the people who have just given up. The Forbes 400 have a combined net worth of $1.5 trillion, up $160 billion over last year. Wealth does not trickle down. Unbridled greed imploded the housing market, eroding the tax base forcing states, cities and towns across the country to curtail services, some have gone bankrupt. Foreclosures, bankruptcy, unemployment. Corporations that have spent their employees' pension funds, killed off entire industries and moved jobs overseas.

Yes, and the students are pissed. They come out of Big Name schools, 50, 100 thousand or more in debt and there are no jobs. Not bad jobs, or mediocre jobs...NO jobs. Many more aren't going to college because tuitions are soaring and their parents can't afford to help them at any price. Where will that put us in 10 or 20 years?

The problem is that this was all avoidable. Flawed policies and misguided laissez-faire government oversight of big business are killing us. Government's unwillingness or inability to act for us is going to finish us off.

I know. Compared to Greece, Spain, Ireland and Iceland, we're lookin good. If I were in college right now, I would take up Chinese.

Worth reading another time.

 

[Kulindahr]

If you don't stand on the street and shout it, who will hear your voice?

When your letters to representatives fall on deaf ears, when your governors are puppets for lobbyists and corporations, when the media is too busy playing sensationalist nonsense to address real issues and ask real questions, when comedians ask harder-hitting and more informed questions than journalists, what other course of action will get the attention of the public, the media and your government?

And when your U.S. Senators go to the administration with concerns about citizens' rights, and get lied to.....

 

[Kulindahr]

See: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The single biggest funneling of public money into private hands, at the mandate of the government, in American history.



http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/29/business/la-fi-goldman-probe-20100429
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/07/new-york-prosecutors-wide_n_951795.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/25/citi-sec-idUSN2511723920110225
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...on-targets-Lehman-AIG-Fannie-and-Freddie.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indus...03-12-lehman-brothers-accounting-tricks_N.htm

I could keep going on and on, but the fact is most of the investigations are continuing as we speak.

Some of those are so old they represent foot-dragging and lack of intent to really do anything. The more recent ones encourage me somewhat.

But I won't be happy until a few hundred banker types are in prison and the dozen biggest banks involved in all this crap are busted into a hundred pieces. I wouldn't mind a new law, either: no financial institution shall be allowed to become large enough that its failure would cause a significant disruption in the U.S. economy.

 

[Kulindahr]

See: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The single biggest funneling of public money into private hands, at the mandate of the government, in American history.

Ah -- I took you reference as meaning taxpayer dollars being handed over by the government. But yes, that shenanigan deserves to be gutted and the offal stuffed up Obama's arse.

I presume you know what I'd replace it with.

 

[JB3]

Some of those are so old they represent foot-dragging and lack of intent to really do anything. The more recent ones encourage me somewhat.

But I won't be happy until a few hundred banker types are in prison and the dozen biggest banks involved in all this crap are busted into a hundred pieces. I wouldn't mind a new law, either: no financial institution shall be allowed to become large enough that its failure would cause a significant disruption in the U.S. economy.

In all fairness, with the crap they pulled to hide it, it could be a decade before they get to the bottom of it.

 

[JB3]

When they've been bombarded by politician after politician with the message that they have to go to college if they want to succeed in life, and the system is set up so the only way they can do that is by massive loans, what are they supposed to do?

But there's a worse problem: your system, where only the rich could go to college, would cripple the U.S. economy.

Educating is not free. The money to educate does not grow on trees. I'll grant that the state university systems need to be slapped back into line with respect to costs, but a completely free education is not possible here.

But that misses my point completely; people that CHOOSE to go to a school that leaves them with $140k in debt after four years don't have the right to complain. They made that choice knowing full well what the result would be.

 

[JB3]

And when your U.S. Senators go to the administration with concerns about citizens' rights, and get lied to.....

This. If all the players are to blame, the only option is to replace ALL of them. Protesting on the street might be a good way to attract attention to yourself, but it does nothing whatsoever to actually reach the people and work for that change. What good is getting them to listen to you if what you say goes in one ear and out the other?

 

[Gatorguy]

Educating is not free. The money to educate does not grow on trees. I'll grant that the state university systems need to be slapped back into line with respect to costs, but a completely free education is not possible here.

But that misses my point completely; people that CHOOSE to go to a school that leaves them with $140k in debt after four years don't have the right to complain. They made that choice knowing full well what the result would be.

I believe in education. I believe in the government investing in education. I think it is essential to us maintaining a competitive advantage as a nation.

However, I think students understanding that there are consequences to actions and inactions, is probably the single most valuable lesson to be taught in the entire educational process. They have to understand that the world is no longer all about them; that they need to contribute in some meaningful fashion.

If they are not held to account for excessive borrowing, for making the decision not to work a job (or two) to limit their indebtedness, then they only go on to think of citizenship the exact same way. We have to crush and destroy the mindset that you can borrow and spend whatever you want without consequence.

 

[Kulindahr]

In all fairness, with the crap they pulled to hide it, it could be a decade before they get to the bottom of it.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

Educating is not free. The money to educate does not grow on trees. I'll grant that the state university systems need to be slapped back into line with respect to costs, but a completely free education is not possible here.

But that misses my point completely; people that CHOOSE to go to a school that leaves them with $140k in debt after four years don't have the right to complain. They made that choice knowing full well what the result would be.

Really? They knew ahead of time that the government and big banks were going to pull the rug out from under the economy and dump them into a recession?

Not likely. Arguably, there was an implicit contract in operation: you take these loans and go to school, and there will be good jobs waiting when you finish. That's the whole premise of the student loan program.

I wonder why that program wasn't set up like medicare, though, where if you're part of that system, you accept what medicare pays, and that's that.