Occupy Wall Street

[Kulindahr]

This. If all the players are to blame, the only option is to replace ALL of them. Protesting on the street might be a good way to attract attention to yourself, but it does nothing whatsoever to actually reach the people and work for that change. What good is getting them to listen to you if what you say goes in one ear and out the other?

You mean replace all the non-elected people, too? They're the ones lying to senators who have tried to pin things down. The example I'm thinking of is how the FBI has been using the "USA PATRIOT" Act to spy on anyone it pleases for any reason it pleases. Two U.S. Senators tried to get Holder to stop it, but the FBI and Holder and saying there's no such thing happening. We could swap out one rancid tray liner, the current elected folks, for another rancid liner, and nothing will change: the bureaucracies are running as they please.

So long as we have this "two-party system", so long as organizations not specifically formed for the purpose of free speech can participate, voting our one set of rabid dogs so another can take their place is our only option. As I've said before, it's just a whore with two faces -- we keep switching faces, but it's the same whore.

 

[Kulindahr]

I believe in education. I believe in the government investing in education. I think it is essential to us maintaining a competitive advantage as a nation.

However, I think students understanding that there are consequences to actions and inactions, is probably the single most valuable lesson to be taught in the entire educational process. They have to understand that the world is no longer all about them; that they need to contribute in some meaningful fashion.

If they are not held to account for excessive borrowing, for making the decision not to work a job (or two) to limit their indebtedness, then they only go on to think of citizenship the exact same way. We have to crush and destroy the mindset that you can borrow and spend whatever you want without consequence.

Working a job may mean you take fewer credits, and end up owing more.


If there weren't idiot reactionaries controlling the House, this could be dealt with simply: start up the CCC again, with a simple deal: they get the basics to live on, in those work camps, and the rest goes to payments on their loans.

Of course I think we ought to start up the WPA again and throw all the unemployed into it instead of handing out free chcecks, too.

 

[palemale]

And how do you propose to fix this? Are you going to continue to advocate for entitlement programs that are accelerating the decline, as you have in the past?

I don't buy into the right wing propaganda that so-called entitlement programs are what is causing our economic problems because, quite simply, it's a lie. The problem is out of control corporate greed, two wars that have not been paid for, tax breaks to the wealthy. To the extent there is a problem with medicare, it is the drug program Bush pushed that ended up being a huge transfer of taxpayer money to big pharma with no real benefit to the recipients, again this transfer of taxpayer money was not actually paid for, but just made the deficit larger.

The biggest threats to Social Security and Medicare is that there are not enough jobs, and too many ill educated workers, which in the long run will not be able to sustain the kind of wage growth that will pay for these programs.

How do we fix it? Make the rich and corporations pay more taxes, end special tax breaks for oil and gas industry (and whatever other, well connected, industries have unnecessary tax breaks). Cut back on the number of military bases we have around the world, leave Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as possible. Invest in infrastructure and education. Scrap Obamacare and enact Medicare for all. Health insurance costs are one of the single biggest obstacles to job creation for employers. Revamp the international trade rules so that countries that suppress labor unions, deny their citizens basic rights, do not run their countries by the rule of law, do not have a competitive advantage over countries that observe basic democratic rights.

Change our election system to regulate political donations so that our politicians are beholden to the voters, not the corporations and wealthy donors.

Establish a strict separation of church and state. Make mandatory, as a condition of earning a high school diploma and acceptance into college, mastery of theory of evolution.

 

[Gatorguy]

Justice delayed is justice denied.



Really? They knew ahead of time that the government and big banks were going to pull the rug out from under the economy and dump them into a recession?

Not likely. Arguably, there was an implicit contract in operation: you take these loans and go to school, and there will be good jobs waiting when you finish. That's the whole premise of the student loan program.

I wonder why that program wasn't set up like medicare, though, where if you're part of that system, you accept what medicare pays, and that's that.

Kuli- Why would they think there would be good jobs waiting for them? I don't understand that at all. Good jobs in my experience come to those dig into a company and become invaluable. Plenty of my college friends studied subjects that interested them personally, but were not essential at all in pushing this nation into the next century. Why would they ever think that they could be employed?

I believe they have the right to study what they want. I believe they should have access to loans, but I never would ever want anyone to think there would be jobs for everyone. It just doesn't work that way. Education (and only relevant education) is only a very small factor in finding a job.

 

[justapixel]

start up the CCC again, with a simple deal: they get the basics to live on, in those work camps, and the rest goes to payments on their loans.

Are you suggesting re-instating slavery? or indentured servants?

 

[Jack Springer]

. . . . Make mandatory, as a condition of earning a high school diploma and acceptance into college, mastery of theory of evolution.

Get out your tin-foil cap.

Wonder if you know that Einstein's theory of relativity is currently being challenged in a reputable scientific way.

 

[IokuA47]

Kuli- Why would they think there would be good jobs waiting for them? I don't understand that at all. Good jobs in my experience come to those dig into a company and become invaluable. Plenty of my college friends studied subjects that interested them personally, but were not essential at all in pushing this nation into the next century. Why would they ever think that they could be employed?

I believe they have the right to study what they want. I believe they should have access to loans, but I never would ever want anyone to think there would be jobs for everyone. It just doesn't work that way. Education (and only relevant education) is only a very small factor in finding a job.

Speaking as someone who majored in Technical Writing... when I began the job field looks great. Upon graduating, I discovered the job field had gone from typical starting salaries of $44k and a plethora of jobs to just contract work and barely making $30k a year if you managed to find enough contract work. Basically, big business has made it possible to eliminate a peaceful mind set in the working class Americans. We are now forced to work for near minimum wage in a salaried position. We face a job market where we compete with people who have years of experience going for entry level positions because there are no other choices. The fact is, the country is heading into such an abyss of stability, no one can viably see a way through to make enough money to support a family. Everyone is worried about what tomorrow will bring, and if we stay silent and let the corporate greed and the politicians continue to ruin the economy, the stability, and make our country into a third-world working nation... we will only wake up until it's too late. Now is the time to stand up and fight as one people. We have no choice, otherwise our silence will be the death of everything we hold dear.

 

[JB3]

Justice delayed is justice denied.

Nonsense.

Really? They knew ahead of time that the government and big banks were going to pull the rug out from under the economy and dump them into a recession?

Not likely. Arguably, there was an implicit contract in operation: you take these loans and go to school, and there will be good jobs waiting when you finish. That's the whole premise of the student loan program.

I wonder why that program wasn't set up like medicare, though, where if you're part of that system, you accept what medicare pays, and that's that.

Kuli, no offense, but pull your head out of your ass. (that's meant in a lovingly snide way) No one forced those kids to choose to go to Columbia over a New York State school. No one forced them to choose to major in a subject where anyone with a brain would know they would have a tough time getting a job even in a good job market. They were never promised jobs after they graduated, and they were never promised good jobs. If they assumed they would be, that's their fault.

As I said before, no one is to blame for their excessive student debt but themselves. There were more reasonably priced options, but they chose to go with the more expensive option. That's their choice, and its their burden. They don't have the right to complain about it.

 

[JB3]

Speaking as someone who majored in Technical Writing... when I began the job field looks great. Upon graduating, I discovered the job field had gone from typical starting salaries of $44k and a plethora of jobs to just contract work and barely making $30k a year if you managed to find enough contract work. Basically, big business has made it possible to eliminate a peaceful mind set in the working class Americans. We are now forced to work for near minimum wage in a salaried position. We face a job market where we compete with people who have years of experience going for entry level positions because there are no other choices. The fact is, the country is heading into such an abyss of stability, no one can viably see a way through to make enough money to support a family. Everyone is worried about what tomorrow will bring, and if we stay silent and let the corporate greed and the politicians continue to ruin the economy, the stability, and make our country into a third-world working nation... we will only wake up until it's too late. Now is the time to stand up and fight as one people. We have no choice, otherwise our silence will be the death of everything we hold dear.

Big business? Sounds like you're trying to pass the buck for a contraction in your job market on a group that doesn't bear any of the blame.

I could blame big business for the lack of teaching jobs in my field, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that they had any hand in it.

 

[JB3]

I don't buy into the right wing propaganda that so-called entitlement programs are what is causing our economic problems because, quite simply, it's a lie. The problem is out of control corporate greed, two wars that have not been paid for, tax breaks to the wealthy. To the extent there is a problem with medicare, it is the drug program Bush pushed that ended up being a huge transfer of taxpayer money to big pharma with no real benefit to the recipients, again this transfer of taxpayer money was not actually paid for, but just made the deficit larger.

Nobody said they're causing our economic problems. You don't understand the argument if that's where you're approaching it from. Entitlements are posing an increasing burden on government spending. And its only going to get worse. Social security is already starting to pass its deficits onto the federal budget at large, and those deficits are going to start growing much more quickly. To put it quite simply (as you put it), both programs are broken and need to be fixed.

The biggest threats to Social Security and Medicare is that there are not enough jobs, and too many ill educated workers, which in the long run will not be able to sustain the kind of wage growth that will pay for these programs.

No. The problem is that the way that the program was set up means that it could never cope with changes in population size, and a massive influx of people that rely on the program. To put it quite simply: the entitlement system is broken, and it needs to be fixed.

How do we fix it? Make the rich and corporations pay more taxes, end special tax breaks for oil and gas industry (and whatever other, well connected, industries have unnecessary tax breaks). Cut back on the number of military bases we have around the world, leave Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as possible. Invest in infrastructure and education. Scrap Obamacare and enact Medicare for all. Health insurance costs are one of the single biggest obstacles to job creation for employers. Revamp the international trade rules so that countries that suppress labor unions, deny their citizens basic rights, do not run their countries by the rule of law, do not have a competitive advantage over countries that observe basic democratic rights.

Where do you think this money is going to come from. Let's be realistic here; without substantial reform of entitlements (along with other spending I mentioned previously), nothing you mentioned will be possible. And medicare for all isn't a possibly, or a realistic possibility, so its not even worth discussing.

Change our election system to regulate political donations so that our politicians are beholden to the voters, not the corporations and wealthy donors.

Establish a strict separation of church and state. Make mandatory, as a condition of earning a high school diploma and acceptance into college, mastery of theory of evolution.

Good luck with that one. That would set up a constitutional fight on the federal role in education, which is something that nobody would want.


Reading your post just reinforces my opinion of what you've posted thus far in the thread; you don't care about actually fixing the problems, you just care about enacting your own ideological agenda. Its the same problem these protestors have, and its why its impossible to take them seriously.

 

[mapiyu]

Nonsense.



Kuli, no offense, but pull your head out of your ass. (that's meant in a lovingly snide way) No one forced those kids to choose to go to Columbia over a New York State school. No one forced them to choose to major in a subject where anyone with a brain would know they would have a tough time getting a job even in a good job market. They were never promised jobs after they graduated, and they were never promised good jobs. If they assumed they would be, that's their fault.

As I said before, no one is to blame for their excessive student debt but themselves. There were more reasonably priced options, but they chose to go with the more expensive option. That's their choice, and its their burden. They don't have the right to complain about it.

Sheer victim-blaming.

 

[JB3]

Sheer victim-blaming.

A person that chooses to go to a school that costs $35k to $40k a year, when SUNY institutions cost half that is a victim? On what planet?

 

[mapiyu]

A person that chooses to go to a school that costs $35k to $40k a year, when SUNY institutions cost half that is a victim? On what planet?

You're not acknowledging the complexities of real life.

Choosing a college is not a black-and-white affair. It can be a very difficult decision - one that demands a level of maturity that not every 17-year-old has. Furthermore, there are legitimate reasons to go to an expensive prestigious school like Columbia. For some students, having a "brand name" on their resume along with the network and opportunities that an Ivy League education provides will be worth the extra debt burden. For other students, it won't be. But here's the catch: there's no way to know which camp you'll be in until you find yourself there. Students aren't psychic and there's never a guarantee that they'll find a job no matter their major or university. So is one supposed to just lower one's ambitions and go to a less prestigious school? Instead of advocating for a less corrupt system, you're blaming students.

Plus, what about students who do choose to go to SUNY? Let's say they graduate with $15,000 of debt - much less than even a single year at Columbia. Guess what? Even a "small" debt burden like $15,000 can be pretty crushing to someone who is unemployed or underemployed. So should kids just not go to college at all now?

Furthermore, for the students who graduated in 2008 until now - they had the rug pulled out from under them. I started college in 2005; how was I supposed to know the job market would implode by the time I graduated?

Bottom line: sure, maybe a lot of students don't make the best decision. But does that truly make them deserving of a darkened future? Are students, even those who made poor decisions, really the ultimate people to be blamed here?

Personal responsibility is important, but what about social and institutional responsibility? You're focusing solely on the former, and that's a really myopic and callous attitude to have.

 

[JB3]

You're not acknowledging the complexities of real life.

Choosing a college is not a black-and-white affair. It can be a very difficult decision - one that demands a level of maturity that not every 17-year-old has. Furthermore, there are legitimate reasons to go to an expensive prestigious school like Columbia. For some students, having a "brand name" on their resume along with the network and opportunities that an Ivy League education provides will be worth the extra debt burden. For other students, it won't be. But here's the catch: there's no way to know which camp you'll be in until you find yourself there. Students aren't psychic and there's never a guarantee that they'll find a job no matter their major or university. So is one supposed to just lower one's ambitions and go to a less prestigious school? Instead of advocating for a less corrupt system, you're blaming students.

Plus, what about students who do choose to go to SUNY? Let's say they graduate with $15,000 of debt - much less than even a single year at Columbia. Guess what? Even a "small" debt burden like $15,000 can be pretty crushing to someone who is unemployed or underemployed. So should kids just not go to college at all now?

Furthermore, for the students who graduated in 2008 until now - they had the rug pulled out from under them. I started college in 2005; how was I supposed to know the job market would implode by the time I graduated?

Bottom line: sure, maybe a lot of students don't make the best decision. But does that truly make them deserving of a darkened future? Are students, even those who made poor decisions, really the ultimate people to be blamed here?

Personal responsibility is important, but what about social and institutional responsibility? You're focusing solely on the former, and that's a really myopic and callous attitude to have.

Not myopic and callous at all. They made the choice and they have no right to complain about it after the fact. You don't hear me complaining about my $80k in college debt do you? No. Because I knew what I was getting and what my obligation would be after I graduated. They have no excuse for not doing the same. Students that make poor decisions must suffer the consequences and bear the burden of that decision. It is a fact of life. To excuse them, or attempt to marginalize their responsibility for their own decision, is not acceptable.

Also, even if the system was as corrupt as you seem to think, no adjustments would affect the students that choose to go to these private schools.

 

[Kulindahr]

How do we fix it? Make the rich and corporations pay more taxes, end special tax breaks for oil and gas industry (and whatever other, well connected, industries have unnecessary tax breaks).

Higher taxes in corporations is a recipe for increased job losses to factories elsewhere -- it would be foolish. A corporate minimum tax would be a good thing, and so would a reduction in corporate tax for corporations with all their jobs inside the country.

But special tax breaks -- an excellent place to strike would be agribusinesses, which soak up farm subsidies that were meant for family farms. Restrict those subsidies to what they were meant for: farms where the families live and work on the land.

Taxing the wealthy is a no-brainer: the Bush years showed that the result of such tax breaks is fewer American jobs.

Cut back on the number of military bases we have around the world, leave Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as possible. Invest in infrastructure and education. Scrap Obamacare and enact Medicare for all. Health insurance costs are one of the single biggest obstacles to job creation for employers. Revamp the international trade rules so that countries that suppress labor unions, deny their citizens basic rights, do not run their countries by the rule of law, do not have a competitive advantage over countries that observe basic democratic rights.

Change our election system to regulate political donations so that our politicians are beholden to the voters, not the corporations and wealthy donors.

Establish a strict separation of church and state. Make mandatory, as a condition of earning a high school diploma and acceptance into college, mastery of theory of evolution.

We could cut 2/3 of our military bases overseas and not notice the difference in terms of effectiveness.

Medicare for all? There goes the budget.... there are a lot of market-based approaches that should be done before we think about that.

Ah, trade! I've wondered since high school why we let any country with a dictatorship have anything but "scraping the bottom" status in trade rules.

Regulating political donations has already been done. The change that's needed is an amendment to the Constitution that specifies that political rights belong only to citizens and legal residents, and by extension to organizations formed by citizens and legal residents for the sole purpose of exercising political rights, and thus all other entities are excluded and prohibited from engaging in any manner in the political process. There go all for-profit corporations and a lot of others, unions, churches, fraternal organizations, etc. etc.

"Mastery" of the theory of evolution? I doubt most college graduates have that!

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli- Why would they think there would be good jobs waiting for them? I don't understand that at all. Good jobs in my experience come to those dig into a company and become invaluable. Plenty of my college friends studied subjects that interested them personally, but were not essential at all in pushing this nation into the next century. Why would they ever think that they could be employed?

They think that because it's the constant propaganda. It was even true, until the bankers smashed the system.

 

[JayHawk]

Having advocates for the 'Occupy Wall Street' like Rosanne Barr DOES NOT HELP.

'I first would allow the guilty bankers to pay, you know, the ability to pay back anything over $100 million [of] personal wealth because I believe in a maximum wage of $100 million.
'And if they are unable to live on that amount of that amount then they should, you know, go to the re-education camps and if that doesn't help, then being beheaded.'
The actress-turned-author is one of several celebrities who came out to support the hundreds of protesters camped out in lower Manhattan for the 'Occupy Wall Street' demonstration.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-crisis-Bring-guillotine.html#ixzz1ZmG0Wcv2

Yes I realize the source.

Yet if you have bothered to listen across the nation at some of the wants and desires of the Occupy movement you will find a amazing disconnect from reality.

- Forgive all college debts
- Federal Takeover of the Federal Reserve
- Stop the war on drugs
- Accountability between Washington and wall street... (this one is what needs to be demanded high and low)

organizations focused on everything from foreclosure prevention to climate change -

SO what the FUCK do they want? Righties of course wanna chuckle and poke fun at the silly college kids. However those silly college kids changed the course of a nation in the 60s after they got organized.

"It's difficult to classify a social protest movement early on in its history," Olzak told CNN. "Clearer goals could eventually emerge, but there's no guarantee."
"Many movements fizzle out. Others become more organized," she said. But "I think we run a risk (by) taking a snapshot at any one point in time, and trying to categorize the movement in any one way based on that snapshot. The only way to study these protest movements is to follow them over time."

Still they must organize. The first step in problem solving is knowing what problem you are solving. Without specificity you will accomplish nothing.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nonsense.



Kuli, no offense, but pull your head out of your ass. (that's meant in a lovingly snide way) No one forced those kids to choose to go to Columbia over a New York State school. No one forced them to choose to major in a subject where anyone with a brain would know they would have a tough time getting a job even in a good job market. They were never promised jobs after they graduated, and they were never promised good jobs. If they assumed they would be, that's their fault.

As I said before, no one is to blame for their excessive student debt but themselves. There were more reasonably priced options, but they chose to go with the more expensive option. That's their choice, and its their burden. They don't have the right to complain about it.

Sorry, but justice delayed IS justice denied.

Who's talking about force? The government and the banks and the media and the schools constantly drum into kids' heads that they'd better go to college or they won't amount to anything, that they only way to have a good job is to go to college. And unless you're rich, the only way to go to college is with loans.

And unless they want a crap degree, they end up with excessive debt. Twenty thousand a year in debt is common for just fair schools, and with more and more kids needing a fifth year to get a degree, that's one hundred thousand in debt.

They had every reason to expect things would be different -- they were told so, continually.

 

[Kulindahr]

No. The problem is that the way that the program was set up means that it could never cope with changes in population size, and a massive influx of people that rely on the program. To put it quite simply: the entitlement system is broken, and it needs to be fixed.

Actually the system would have worked fine except for one thing: people started living longer.

 

[Kulindahr]

Not myopic and callous at all. They made the choice and they have no right to complain about it after the fact. You don't hear me complaining about my $80k in college debt do you? No. Because I knew what I was getting and what my obligation would be after I graduated. They have no excuse for not doing the same. Students that make poor decisions must suffer the consequences and bear the burden of that decision. It is a fact of life. To excuse them, or attempt to marginalize their responsibility for their own decision, is not acceptable.

Also, even if the system was as corrupt as you seem to think, no adjustments would affect the students that choose to go to these private schools.

How was it a poor decision? They were following what they were told was the proper course. They were following a course that many others had followed and did well. Their sudden inability to not have jobs is not their fault.

Or are you suggesting anyone who goes to college should plan on there being a recession when they get out -- a monstrous recession? That's a prescription for returning to the old system of only the rich go to university. It's also a prescription for permanently crippling the U.S. economy