Occupy Wall Street

[TX-Beau]

I agree we require an amendment to restrict rights to actual people - all the while being kind of being disgusted that it's necessary to go to that extreme in the first place.

Is there a process for removing a sitting Justice? Just askin.

 

[JayHawk]

Yeah it is too complex to defeat ......almost.

If you define political rights as belonging to actual organic human beings but still allow for PAC won't corporations simply invest in 150 thousand people to supply its 150 million in purchased lobbying?

 

[TX-Beau]

Possibly, but if you require that they disclose their funding and are accountable for their spending, you minimize that problem.

 

[Kulindahr]

Congratulations. Apparently you don't get it in any thread. Try reading all the post. And while you seem completely set on insulting me as your point in the OWS thread I would suggest you develop a opinion and then argue its merits. I have plenty of ideas and stated positions. Feel free to address them. Just as I have addressed conservative points while disregarding ignorant insults that i know to be untrue. If you disagree with a statement of mine feel free to call it out but also try to have an opinion somewhere other than you oppose Jhawk

I get fallacious reasoning. When I encounter it, I give the rest of the post very little credit. When someone keeps employing the same fallacies after they've been pointed out, I give that person very little credit.

I have given a position and argued merits, and later in threads you ask the question of why no one has given a position. That tells me you're not paying attention, and lowers your credit even more.

 

[Kulindahr]

OH come on Kuli can we not give it a rest?

I am ABSOLUTELY certain you have something interesting to say about the last couple of posts.

Please, share.

I'm not going to "give a break" to calling out fallacies.

I think that pacs are the great fat bellied whore even more than lobbyists, it's where unaccountable money meets unaccountable politics.

I just don't see any constitutional way you can forbid them. Which leaves regulation.

One, simple law: all donors and all petition signers to all campaigns and measure drives are public knowledge -- period.

And keep the individual donor limit -- actually, I'd add an item there: make it tax deductible up to $2500/year.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yeah it is too complex to defeat ......almost.

If you define political rights as belonging to actual organic human beings but still allow for PAC won't corporations simply invest in 150 thousand people to supply its 150 million in purchased lobbying?

Possibility.

But if you fine them $100,000 per violation if they're caught, and as TX says and I suggested as a universal law that all donors be public, it shouldn't be too hard to discourage them.

 

[EastMed]

Some good points from George Monbiot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/07/one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers?INTCMP=SRCH

 

[JayHawk]

I get fallacious reasoning. When I encounter it, I give the rest of the post very little credit. When someone keeps employing the same fallacies after they've been pointed out, I give that person very little credit.

I have given a position and argued merits, and later in threads you ask the question of why no one has given a position. That tells me you're not paying attention, and lowers your credit even more.

Well just for your future edification about my posting style here is a little bit.

You sense fallacious reasoning. I do also. Especially when anyone supporting OWS goes to the opposite end of the spectrum and throws out reason when making a post because it MIGHT portend lack of full undying support for their cause. When I see that occur I will always will out fail make the opposite ridiculous point to possibly shake them free from mindless assumption that their group or cause is infallible.

You pointed out in another thread that you assume everyone is serious and fail to comprehend baiting because of that seriousness assumption. So here is another tidbit about my posting style. I do so with a smile on my face usually or I would be here for the last five years. Do I sometimes post opinions or part there of that will crawl deeply under the skin of the opposite poster? Your damn right. I have learned over the last few years that rarely you will change a well formed opinion BUT you can make 'em think. That is all I ask.

Kuli I usually always include a vapid point pertaining to the thread. Not always in some contentious threads but usually. Usually when I dont it is tit for tat.

In any event back to the topic which of course is not me and Kuli's inability to adequately engage.

I can see the fine. But then you get into regulation again. Who decides what is influence and what is not. I think any 'fix' to our current quagmired, ineffective government MUST include regulatory reform. Not just to impose a level of clarity and above board behavior in our politicians but for all regulatory agencies. Think about it there would be no wall street with an effective SEC. Deepwater Horizon would have still failed BUT a response would have been in place to deal with it. No it is not possible BUT you must have a responsible Minerals Resource Service. Those are just two recent horrific examples.

 

[JayHawk]

Some good points from George Monbiot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/07/one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers?INTCMP=SRCH

That is somewhat interesting point of view but I would ask one question.

If the people running wall street are nothing more than trained chimps flipping a coin then why does that industry take in our top academic performers year in and year out. They take the smart ones and the smart ones then rise to the top.

I would agree that in comparison to living as a working women in Africa your odds as an American citizen at ending up wealthy are substantially increased and your odds at having a nice -- and yes even posh lifestyle by comparison of course -- well those odds increase astronomically.

So there are holes in that mans logic.

I also see many foreign immigrants come to this country and use the same austerity type living measures and thereby stack ten wage earners into one home. They then amass wealth as a group but even after one friend owned five restaurants and was making crazy amounts of money being a small business owner he still lived very frugally because it was what he knew.

 

[palemale]

Drug-head. Police in Portland have reported that scores of homeless have moved into the camp and drug users and dealers are using them for cover. This guy's behavior is basic druggie, getting fixated on an idea and coming up with one set of words that gets used over and over because there's little actual understand.

I noticed that some real Occupiers showed up to try to steer him away, with little success until the end. This is where the suggestion that Occupiers just turn the criminals and misbehaving among them over to the cops.

I would have liked to have been there. Someone should have stepped between him and the reporters; I've done that enough as a lifeguard. In this case it would be best done with two allies -- step in as they come up from the sides, lock arms, and just keep the guy away while calming him down.

It was predictable that the camp would attract some of the worst elements.

Yes, and here in NYC, all of a sudden, the morning bus from Rikers Island now apparently discharges its passengers right by Zuccotti Park. For those of you not from NYC, Rikers Island is where the jail is. The City now discharges newly released prisoners right by Zuccotti Park. I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

 

[JayHawk]

It is a self solving problem. Prisoners need food and a place to stay or they are more likely to get into trouble after being released. Wah Lah free food and places to sleep.

(^^^^^ That was an unfair poke meant to get a laugh or a reaction Kuli)

I have heard on a NPR report that the police are the ones directing the homeless to the locations of the OWS encampments. You can argue it is wrong BUT at the same time what do you expect if you piss down the leg of a officer and yell fuck you fuck you fuck you into his face. He can execute his god given american right of free speech while talking to a bum on his normal rounds. For me it goes back to if you give respect then you will get it in return.

Where did the bus from Riker's used to drop the post perpetrating pricks?

 

[jackoroe]

Yes, and here in NYC, all of a sudden, the morning bus from Rikers Island now apparently discharges its passengers right by Zuccotti Park. For those of you not from NYC, Rikers Island is where the jail is. The City now discharges newly released prisoners right by Zuccotti Park. I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

They should simply let them swim back from Riker's when their time is up. Save on gas.

 

[Kulindahr]

Some good points from George Monbiot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/07/one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers?INTCMP=SRCH

The pointed end of the spear:

The findings of the psychologist Daniel Kahneman, winner of a Nobel economics prize, are devastating to the beliefs that financial high-fliers entertain about themselves. He discovered that their apparent success is a cognitive illusion. For example, he studied the results achieved by 25 wealth advisers across eight years. He found that the consistency of their performance was zero. "The results resembled what you would expect from a dice-rolling contest, not a game of skill." Those who received the biggest bonuses had simply got lucky.

Such results have been widely replicated. They show that traders and fund managers throughout Wall Street receive their massive remuneration for doing no better than would a chimpanzee flipping a coin. When Kahneman tried to point this out, they blanked him. "The illusion of skill … is deeply ingrained in their culture."

 

[Kulindahr]

I also see many foreign immigrants come to this country and use the same austerity type living measures and thereby stack ten wage earners into one home. They then amass wealth as a group but even after one friend owned five restaurants and was making crazy amounts of money being a small business owner he still lived very frugally because it was what he knew.

We had that happening here. So the city council and the county got together and passed identical rules limiting the number of people in a dwelling by square feet, number of bathrooms, and other such, and the one that prevails is the one that most reduces the number of residents.

Result: in a town of 5k, we got nearly a hundred homeless.

Once again, the political powers align with the financial powers to make sure others can't get ahead.

 

[jackoroe]

Looks like the party is over in Portland. The city is evicting the squatters this weekend. The cause? An increase in crime in the vicinity of the protest, two drug overdoses in the last two days and almost $1600 in damage done to two police cars from a neighboring jurisdiction. The OWS protestor who did that was arrested and OWS was billed for the damages.

Apparently some intend disregard a lawful order and remain. Another example of bad decision making. Enjoy the tear gas!

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/11/occupy_portland_portland_mayor.html

 

[bankside]

We had that happening here. So the city council and the county got together and passed identical rules limiting the number of people in a dwelling by square feet, number of bathrooms, and other such, and the one that prevails is the one that most reduces the number of residents.

Result: in a town of 5k, we got nearly a hundred homeless.

Once again, the political powers align with the financial powers to make sure others can't get ahead.

Cities don't create occupancy standards to "align with the financial powers," they've just learned from the history of plagues and fires and so on that result from overcrowding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Montreal

In 1721, Montreal received a royal order from France to ban wood construction; buildings were to be constructed using stone, but the ban was never fully respected.

This was not to "prop up the stonemasons guild" or drive people into the streets because they couldn't afford a stone house, it was because being on fire was not a suitable condition for a citizen of Montreal.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Enjoy the tear gas!

What a rotten sentiment. Seriously.

I don't know how the closure will go.

I hope no one is hurt.

 

[JayHawk]

Zoltan no one ... nope not a single soul on JUB apparently gets what black humor is and why people employ it.

That is unfortunate for the peacefully assembled protestors who can not develop some sort of occupy watch group to police themselves. So much so that the authorities in a very liberal and apparently open to protest government is finally forced to take action.

Some of the rather loud and easily offended voices have left the OWS thread either out of a lack of a defense or a lack of desire to defend the defenseless. Or hey maybe they took my advice and havent yet figured out how to hook up a broadband cable feed to their occupy tent.

I heard somewhere to day that the occupy movement in either SF or Oakland received 20 grand in donations and as a group they decided to place their new found operating account into none other than Well Fargo. That will show 'em. (If of course it is true. i just walked in and havent looked for it yet)

 

[Stardreamer]

Reports coming out tonight that OWS protestors have vandalized the 911 memorial.

NYPD gets tough on OWS protestors

While a good number of the protestors are trying to keep the protests peaceful and lawful, even working to clean up the messes made by the anarchists in their midst. I've been hearing more and more commentary on the radio and TV saying the police in NY and other cities are reaching the end of their patience.

 

[fetaby]

Yeah. I heard the same about the 20k being deposited to Wells Fargo.

If anything that move illustrates the point rather succintly. And the point is a question, what now?

All these problems have come to the forefront of the world's consciousness but little or no solutions have sprung forth behind them.

BTW, the tiny protest in my home town has disbanded. They've packed up and gone home. The fervor was never really there. Doesn't mean the problems have lessened though.