Offended By Confederate Flag

[Sammie13]

I'm sorry but that statement's a tad bit of age discrimination speaking though I won't argue that the writer's opinions are indeed immature. Connecting someone's age with immaturity of opinion assumes that it is the age that makes their opinion immature not the illogical flow of thought. Someone may be very logical and young and as is clear someone may not and also be young.

My, aren't we very P.C. this evening....this symbol D) denotes that the above post was meant to be taken in the spirit of humor. Any adult who has ever had to have dealings with a teenager knows all too well just how stubborn and hard-headed they can be, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that youth tend to be immature (which, by the way, maturity was not a topic in my post...it was you who mentioned that issue).

 

[Sammie13]

Well, I'd put out that trying to tell some adults something and you'll find it equally as wall-shattering... NOT that I'll be naming names....

LOL--indeed! That new avatar is funny...twisted, but funny nevertheless!

 

[Kulindahr]

The Confederate flag is just as much a badge of shame as the Nazi Swastika.

Those that promote this symbol of evil and oppression should be recognised for what they are.

As to if this should be displayed - the answer is obvious - any place the Swastika is OK is OK for the confederate flag. So maybe at a fancy dress party

Have you been reading the thread, or did you just drop in?
The Confederate flag is a badge of family honor for blacks whose ancestors fought for the South as free men. The Confederate flag is a statement of individual freedom by people who don't care what color you are. The Confederate flag is a number of things, not just one.
In a case I described I think fairly well, it was a way to tease his 'redneck' fraternity brothers -- and open a chance for education. Do you really think my former acquaintance wouldn't laugh in your face at that "Those that promote this symbol of evil and oppression should be recognised for what they are" claim?

It's like the Swastika: are you going to tell all the people with honorable uses of that symbol, dating from long before the National Socialists picked it up, are evil unless they only use it "maybe at a fancy dress party"?

I meant because the KKK hate the hispanic community and that flag is their symbol. They're gone to picket some immigration events.

and asian dream exactly my point. Racism exists today in the back of people's minds and so well embedded and think its not there. Some kid came to school with a swastika freshmen year in 2003 in high school and said it was german pride.. good god he got suspended so fast! I remember his name too and everything. GERMAN PRIDE MY ASS. The whole 4 years he made fun of alot of minorities and had very few friends. Same way as the confederate flag lovers saying its southern pride? Sounds right to me.

As for the blacks fighting in the civil war.. on the confederate side.... many didn't know what they were doing and were told what to do... some people will do whatever to defend that racist piece of fabric!

Kinda like the boi in my high school that said the holocaust was a hoax?

People who say the civil war was not mainly over slavery... its the same deal! Oh the poor south.. oh poor them.. the big bad north was coming to take their free labor which meant they had to get up and work.. oh no.. work.. and not being able to discriminate on the basis of race.. lets feel sorry for them because thats why they had to stand up for themselves...!

People who deny shit are ignorant

Cher, you and Asian are making this very one-dimensional. That's usually the tactic of those who want to brainwash people so they won't think any longer. But a number of us here have provided you with batches of truth you're just skating on by. It's the same 'reasoning' used by the KKK, btw, who want everyone to have the same sort of mental set, only about blacks -- they want everyone to believe that all blacks are just trash, just like you want us to believe that all use of the Confederate flag is just trash. They want everyone to think that the Confederate flag is "their symbol" -- and you're right there with them. They don't want anyone to think that it might mean something else, that there are people who disagree with them to whom it means other things, so they can promote the "us vs. them" mentality.

You keep ignoring the information people have given you here, dude. I'd say you describe yourself pretty, well, right here:

People who deny shit are ignorant

As for the kid, the swastika, and "German Pride", he was full of it because there's no historical foundation for that claim at all. The swastika was never a German symbol, ever, anywhere in history. It's been a mystical symbol, a religious symbol of sorts, and a decorative item, but never has it been associated with the German people. If he'd claimed it was mystical, and been able to tell what it meant as a mystical symbol, he might have had a case, but German?!
BTW, if he'd wanted a symbol for German Pride, he'd have been on good ground with the Iron Cross: although it was somewhat taken over by the Nazis, it had a long history before them, from clear back with the Teutonic Knights, then the Kingdom of Prussia, and the German Empire. It was an award for valor, given to those who already exemplified the knightly virtues of faithfulness, bravery, honor, protection of the weak, etc., (enough so that there were holders of it as an award from the German Empire who, when the Nazis co-opted it, gave up wearing theirs, in protest). The swastika, though, never meant anything to Germans except, perhaps, a good-luck symbol in folklore.
Personally, I would've made the kid research the swastika and submit a minimum three-page essay about what it really meant. Ignorance is one thing, but public displays of ignorance deserve correction.

 

[MrWright]

My, aren't we very P.C. this evening....this symbol D) denotes that the above post was meant to be taken in the spirit of humor. Any adult who has ever had to have dealings with a teenager knows all too well just how stubborn and hard-headed they can be, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that youth tend to be immature (which, by the way, maturity was not a topic in my post...it was you who mentioned that issue).

I believed it was implied. I deal with teenagers...being 19 myself.

Oh it doesn't really matter. I was just feeling bitchy.

 

[CharlesII]

Here we go again. Trot out the Cult of Victimhood, and turn on the tears. Never mind all these meskins flying the Mexican flag on American soil. Yet it is they who are offended by a flag that was once THE flag of our nation (the CSA, that is). Versions or renditions of it were (and still are) part of the flags of several southern states.
Since indentured servitude was perfectly common, and even the law of the land, both north AND south of the Mason-Dixon back then, it can hardly be construed as racist. Oh, sure, racist groups may adopt the rebel flag as part of THEIR agenda, but that cannot taint it for the rest of us. For most rank and file throughout the south, the confederate flag stands for many things, and racism doesn't even come to mind.
If we can fly the union flag today, without feeling guilt or responsibility for all the criminal things "our" government does in our name here and abroad, why shouldn't Germans be able to fly the swastika flag as the flag of their country, with no necessary attachment to or endorsement of naziism? It was their national flag, was it not?
Unfortunately, there are too many self-important people who are no smarter than the bull who sees only red when it's waved in his face. These people know and care the least about the histories and values of other groups and peoples they rant about. For them, everything must be the visual equivalent of a sound bite.
OK, I can play that card too. All Mexicans are thieves and wreak of smegma. When I see a Mexican flag, that's what I think of, and I am offended. Somebody please coddle me now.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

The confederate flag was never a flag of southern pride. It was a flag of a new nation that separated when a Republican president that was opposed to slavery became elected. (Republican then meant democrat today) The south warned that their slaves could be taken and separated out of fear. After the confederacy lost, the flag was still flown and called their rebellious "southern pride" flag. Jim crow laws were set into place, the KKK came into play, anyone who flew the confederate flag shortly after the civil war were racist. There was even talk of a renewed civil war, so republicans did not want a southern democrat to be elected. The KKK rode on horses at nighttime to scare superstitious blacks and stated they were the ghosts of the dead confederate soldiers as they waved the confederate flag. They would chase blacks into the woods and kill them and try to scare white republicans to vote democratic. (These idiots considered themselves activists) Again the confederate flag was seen as a southern pride symbol, but the southern states which remained loyal to the union throughout the war never threw up the confederate flag. Are they afraid of their pride? Or is that flag a symbol of something so hateful? Many who honestly believe today that it IS a piece of their heritage, that idea was passed down from ancestors who lived in the south during the confederate war and the racist whites who flew it after the war for centuries angry at blacks living a bitter life in the south. And today.. many tensions of the civil war still lives on. Some people who consider it southern pride should ask themselves how their parents and grandparents feel about people of a different race and so on and if they had a confederate flag. Many truths do not want to be seen. Remember the jim crow laws were "The Way Of The South?" Do you think that confederate flag at the time meant JUST pride of where they lived?

As for the mexican flag, it is the same as someone flying the Polish flag. If someone of a different nationality emigrates to another nation to live, it is common to miss your home and have feelings of homesickness. The mexican flag is a flag of their nation. Leave them alone. Its not the fact that its a flag its what it stands for. Its the same as a polish flag, Japanese, german, french, Irish, Nigerian, and British. The confederacy was a 6 year nation if that. Many did not recognize it as a nation in Europe but as a rebellious part of the North. It was a bunch of racist rednecks that wished to treat black human beings as property, cattle, and something of lesser value then themselves.

As for mexican that are thieves and reak of smegma, yea there are some that do, what about the white punks that steal and are uncut that reak of smegma? I never said all southerners are racist. I am talking about a symbol of hatred.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

guess what i went to a county fair today and they were selling confederate flags. I asked why he would sell such a hateful flag seeing that the confederacy lost their slaves. He said its a heritage thing and not one part of the civil war had to do with slavery and if any blacks are offended they can go back to africa. Sounds like a typical southerner or just a racist redneck?

 

[Kulindahr]

You should have asked him what tribe he was from -- you know, Native American.
And when he said "None", you should have said, "Live up to your words -- go back to Europe".

 

[seamusnewwest]

Anyone who can say they "even dated one" and actually think that makes them look enlightened has a ways to go in understanding and overcoming their personal racism.

Tolerance and free speech are not just for the things you think are right, it's for those other guys too - through debate, we are able to reveal truth, and learn about the complexities of life. Symbols have the meaning that you give them. You can choose not to give it any meaning, and leave it as an anachronism that will likely fade - as would likely have happened with slavery.

I was doing online research and it seems that the confederate flag is still being used. This is extremely offensive seeing that I am part Mexican besides being an Italian, being a gay democrat, and that i grew up with many african-american friends and even dated one.

Alot of southerners claim it as part of "Southern Culture" and "Southern Pride." Bullshit. So we can hang swastikas and say its GERMAN PRIDE? People find loopholes for anything.

The state of Mississippi still has the confederate symbol as part of their flag.

Any views on this subject? It may be freedom of speech, but the constitution also states you can NOT scream fire in a crowded theater. Meaning some people might argue your free speech if you were to visit a Jewish/Gay Neighborhood and wave a swastika around.. and you WILL offend people of different cultural and racial backgrounds waving a confederate flag. Anyone can say its southern culture.. it doesn't change what it REALLY is and HOW IT BECAME!

 

[seamusnewwest]

Nobody finds these photos offensive? I find them very offensive. I don't tolerate racism or discrimination and nobody should stand for it.

Those photos are offensive - and how people can appropriate symbols for their own purposes. It's just as easy to find pics of Nazis and Klansmen using the American flag - far more common, in fact. This one freaks me out a bit, below - but should we freak out about the American flag because of it? Because the point is the same - any flag can represent a lot of differernt things to a lot of different people.

 

[seamusnewwest]

Your arguments are based primarily on a comparison - to nazism, the worst thing you can think of, and on anecdotes of bad things that happened with the confederate flag. In other words, no logic. What makes the thing inherently bad in itself?

Regarding your silly comment that you've never heard of a black southern American openly using the confederate flag, you completely forget about black Southern Civil War veterans.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/black_confederates.html

You see, just because it's a racist symbol to you doesn't mean it's a racist symbol to everyone. You can't let racists and totalitarians tell you that you can't have a symbol or a flag because they've stolen it for their own purposes. Things are complicated - take your references to the swastika. Hasn't it occured to you that your emotional reactions, lack of knowledge, and calls for banning and censorship are the tools that Nazis work with to build their cause? Reason, inquiry, knowledge and free speech are the answers of an anti-Nazi. Now about that swastika, it, like the confederate flag, really is a little more complicated than you would have it - are you really going to ban a major Hindu symbol?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

If its really that ok... then why have I never heard of a black southern American openly hanging one in their living room and embracing it like so many white people do?

As for the image i Uploaded.. i found it online and technically anyone can create their own flag... the fact that someone was able to create such a flag.. means THAT particular sort of flag exists.

Why Are KKK members and Neo-Nazi groups waving the Confederate flag saying WHITE PRIDE? Why is the Confederate flag always being announced as a White Pride symbol on the KKK website? I feel anyone defending it deep down has hidden issues with the black or another racial culture and its a defense to protect that racist thinking.

Saying its southern culture and where they came from.. whatever.. is a reason to justify the means on showing it so they fly around a confederate flag everywhere with an excuse saying its not racism to reassure themselves that what it stands for is right.

If someone had a grandfather from the original nazi Party.. they can argue that they have German heritage and complain they are not racist and are looking for shock value from others waving a swastika and saying they are proud of where their grandparents came from..

The KKK who show the Confederate flag more then anyone else are deeply associated with the Neo-Nazi Party.

May i remind people that THOUSANDS of blacks were forced to do hard labor without pay.. and were treated like ANIMALS and objects.. nothing more. Were not allowed to read or write. And the South wanted to separate and flashed that flag... putting in their constitution that Slavery would be part of their union!

They argued we were trying to CONTROL them. What southern history books will want you to think is that they were the poor victims here. How they had some big bully take away their free labor so they had to spend money and/or do it themselves because they were so lazy.

A few years back i remember a story of this young black guy being dragged on the back of a truck by a rope as his skin was yanked off. I cried at this story.. and guess what was on their truck... THE CONFEDERATE FLAG.

I feel that anyone that justifies this flag is ignorant and looking for ways to justify their mixed and uncomfortable emotions with blacks. A black man or woman has no less or more value then someone of white ethnicity! This is nuts.

The KKK doesn't like anyone of Hispanic decent.. they wave their confederate flag and display it proudly.

As for someone who thinks its a joke.. its not. It's called study history.. because history repeats itself, and racism still exists today. It may be a joke... but its not. I don't care if it was 500 years ago or yesterday.. it is what it is.. do you think time changes what that flag was based on? Because YOU didn't go through it? Don't forget the harsh treatment of these "slaves" and that many died in the civil war. But you didn't know anyone.. so you don't care what the hell happened. Because its all good now?

The true intelligent people are ones who do their research in history and consider how others will feel upon seeing such a thing! Why do you think we have Holocaust museums... because it was JOKE?! To remind people of the seriousness so this does NOT happen again. The harsh cruelty of southern black slaves DID happen, It's PROVEN, they WERE mistreated, its the CONFEDERATES who wanted to keep slavery. End of story

Can we make a Nazi Flag and say its just a good ole' joke and its in the past?

 

[seamusnewwest]

Oh, good lord, did you go through it? What pious intolerance.

I feel nobody cares because THEY themselves did NOT go through it and see the seriousness and hear it on the news.... it didn't happen in our lifetime.. hence.. its not important and its all a joke! So lets forget the slavery and lets disregard what happened.

 

[Sammie13]

Thanks, seamusnewest, for bringing some common sense to this thread. There are only like 209 Confederacy-bashing thread going around here now.

Where have you been my friend? Don't be such a stranger!

 

[AsianDream]

The Confederate flag is a badge of family honor for blacks whose ancestors fought for the South as free men. The Confederate flag is a statement of individual freedom by people who don't care what color you are. The Confederate flag is a number of things, not just one
.
In a case I described I think fairly well, it was a way to tease his 'redneck' fraternity brothers -- and open a chance for education. Do you really think my former acquaintance wouldn't laugh in your face at that "Those that promote this symbol of evil and oppression should be recognised for what they are" claim?

It's like the Swastika: are you going to tell all the people with honorable uses of that symbol, dating from long before the National Socialists picked it up, are evil unless they only use it "maybe at a fancy dress party"?

The confederate flag is the symbol of those that fought in favour of slavery and were defeated.

Just as the Swastika was the symbol of German ideas of racial superiority.
In both cases the ideas are remarkably similar and in fact are both founded on concepts of racial supremacy.

Both symbols may have previously had other meanings with the Swastika having legitimate historic roots – nevertheless the subsequent association of both symbols with evil does render them no longer acceptable.

In short – both the Swastika and Confederate Flag are generally accepted symbols of evil and racial intolerance.

As to whether the display of these symbols should be illegal – I’m not so sure.

Both obviously offend a lot of people – but at the end of the day – it at least says what people stand for – so helps identify those that are unambiguously bad people.

At least if I see a group of people marching behind a Swastika or a confederate flag – I can be sure that these are evil people – without having any moral uncertainty that they may in fact be ordinary decent people that can be reasoned with.

 

[Kulindahr]

The confederate flag is the symbol of those that fought in favour of slavery and were defeated.

Just as the Swastika was the symbol of German ideas of racial superiority.
In both cases the ideas are remarkably similar and in fact are both founded on concepts of racial supremacy.

Both symbols may have previously had other meanings with the Swastika having legitimate historic roots – nevertheless the subsequent association of both symbols with evil does render them no longer acceptable.

In short – both the Swastika and Confederate Flag are generally accepted symbols of evil and racial intolerance.

As to whether the display of these symbols should be illegal – I’m not so sure.

Both obviously offend a lot of people – but at the end of the day – it at least says what people stand for – so helps identify those that are unambiguously bad people.

At least if I see a group of people marching behind a Swastika or a confederate flag – I can be sure that these are evil people – without having any moral uncertainty that they may in fact be ordinary decent people that can be reasoned with.

I think your post has already been answered:

You see, just because it's a racist symbol to you doesn't mean it's a racist symbol to everyone. You can't let racists and totalitarians tell you that you can't have a symbol or a flag because they've stolen it for their own purposes. Things are complicated - take your references to the swastika. Hasn't it occured to you that your emotional reactions, lack of knowledge, and calls for banning and censorship are the tools that Nazis work with to build their cause? Reason, inquiry, knowledge and free speech are the answers of an anti-Nazi. Now about that swastika, it, like the confederate flag, really is a little more complicated than you would have it - are you really going to ban a major Hindu symbol?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

 

[cyberelf429]

The War of Northern Aggression was NOT about slavery. It was about States Rights.

"To understand the struggle between the North and South, we have to look at how both sides viewed the Federal government and States' rights. Remember that in 1860 the United States of America, commonly called "the Union" in those days, was only 84 years old. Most of the key political figures had parents who lived during the time of the American revolution, so the concept of "the Union" and a centralized Federal government as a permanent political structure was not as prevalent as it is today.

The dominant view in the North, which Lincoln shared, was that the states who had entered into the Union at the time of the Revolutionary War were bound to stay in the Union, by military force if necessary, and could not withdraw or secede from the Union.

The Southern states viewed their participation in the Union as voluntary and that secession was their right if the Federal government over-stepped it's Constitutional powers and encroached on the States' rights to self-rule.

In fact, the key issue in the presidential election which Lincoln won was not whether the South should give up slavery, but whether the Federal government could outlaw slavery in new states that were entering the Union. The Southern states felt that giving the Federal government this kind of power would weaken their own right to decide whether they would be slave states or free states.

As for Lincoln, he had made it clear during the election that although he was against slavery he would not use the Federal government to eliminate slavery in the South and would let slavery, which was already declining, die naturally due to free market forces.

Economic power was also at stake in the North/South divide. Contrary to what most history classes teach, the Panic of 1857 had devastated the Northern economy which was based on manufacturing and banking, while the Southern states, whose economy was primarily based on agriculture, were virtually untouched by the economic crisis gripping the North.

If the Southern states, which had the advantage of goods to export and good shipping facilities, withdrew from the Union and established free trade internationally it would further decimate the North financially.

To prevent this from happening, the Federal government used it's military forces to control the trade of the South, imposing taxes on cotton and tariffs on exports, leading to further division. The first battle of the Civil War, the attack on Union forces at Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina, was in response to this kind of meddling in free trade by the Federal government.

The day after the Confederate forces captured Fort Sumter, Lincoln called up 75,000 militiamen from the states to suppress the Southern rebellion.

The conflict between North and South was now a full-fledged civil war. By the time the Union won the war four years later, more than 620,000 soldiers died in combat and over a million more died from disease.


Being ignorant about history to the point that the flag "upsets" you just makes you more ignorant, it doesn't change history.

 

[AsianDream]

Originally Posted by AsianDream

The confederate flag is the symbol of those that fought in favour of slavery and were defeated.

Just as the Swastika was the symbol of German ideas of racial superiority.
In both cases the ideas are remarkably similar and in fact are both founded on concepts of racial supremacy.

Both symbols may have previously had other meanings with the Swastika having legitimate historic roots – nevertheless the subsequent association of both symbols with evil does render them no longer acceptable.

In short – both the Swastika and Confederate Flag are generally accepted symbols of evil and racial intolerance.

As to whether the display of these symbols should be illegal – I’m not so sure.

Both obviously offend a lot of people – but at the end of the day – it at least says what people stand for – so helps identify those that are unambiguously bad people.

At least if I see a group of people marching behind a Swastika or a confederate flag – I can be sure that these are evil people – without having any moral uncertainty that they may in fact be ordinary decent people that can be reasoned with.

I think your post has already been answered:

DUH - If my post has been answered - I must have missed it.

Surely you can't subscribe to the neo-facist views of the few nazi/racist supporters that aren't ashamed of the confederate flag?

 

[AsianDream]

People saying the war wasn't about slavery might as well say a cake isn't made of icing. Sure, it's not, but it's definitely a part of the cake though saying it isn't gives the impression that icing isn't at all part of the cake.

Wait....now I'm confused.

j/k, you know what I mean if you paid attention in history class.

Don't be confused

This is one clear example of where the history textbooks were right - the bad guys did lose this time

What surprises me is that gays like Kulindahr can still try to make a logical case for the "bad guys".

This isn't a morally ambigious situation - just a plain case of some bad ideas that just simply are wrong - no "ifs buts or maybes"

 

[cyberelf429]

Do you want to know the truth or do you want to live in the imaginary world?

You can either educate yourself and learn history (which although many people want to revise) is already done. It happened how it happened and you can't "decide" it happened some other way.

The fighters at the Alamo were all killed. They lost. Why do we "Remember the Alamo"?

The south fought for their rights and lost. Now we have a Federal government that has more power than the founders ever intended.

Slavery was wrong but it was already in decline. It would have ended anyway. What we lost was not a war about slavery- we lost the right to self determination. The Declaration of Independence States:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Based on that document the South should have been free to dissolve the political bands with the North. The North FORCED the South to stay in the union. It was not a victory for the "good guys" it was a victory for an all powerful Federal Government that torments us to this day.

As your rights to travel freely, congregate, dissent and oppose the Federal Government are lost every day due to the power the Federal Government now has you can thank your gods that the North won.

 

[Backlum-Chaam]

Slavery was wrong but it was already in decline. It would have ended anyway. What we lost was not a war about slavery- we lost the right to self determination.

The supposition that slavery would have "ended anyway", has nothing to do with whether the South was fighting to protect/preserve it.

In this context, "self determination" is revisionist code for the "self determination to preserve slavery."