Offended By Confederate Flag

[Kulindahr]

...because symbols have no intrinsic associations of which we need be mindful. For instance, Mary. To some, the mother of god. To others, the mother of "OMG. More. More. Faster. Oh yeah! MORE." Who can say, just by looking?

http://www.divine-interventions.com/mary.html

Or to some, a person in a song:

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Or to some, a person in a song:

well we can't watch it anyway

 

[Kulindahr]

well we can't watch it anyway

Blastitall.
It worked for me the first time!

Here.

 

[Kulindahr]

thank you!!!!!!

Interesting: he proved my point, and you thank him.

Nice of you.

 

[AsianDream]

Remember the swastika: to some it's a sign of evil, but to others it's a holy symbol, or to others a symbol of strength and intelligence. Just looking at it, you can't tell what it means, because it depends on the person.
The same is true of the southern battle flag.

This seems like the ultimate get out

You might just as well say that words are only a sound pattern and have no intrinsic meaning.

The reality is that the Confederate Flag like the swastika is a symbol of evil - and most people recognise it as such - no amount of playing with words will change this - no matter what

 

[HenryReardon]

The reality is that the Confederate Flag like the swastika is a symbol of evil - and most people recognise it as such -

Most people? I don't think so. Most people probably don't give a flying fling, one way or the other.

Bedwetting liberals, on the one hand, and die-hard southerners, on the other hand, get really rabid on the topic.

 

[Kulindahr]

This seems like the ultimate get out

You might just as well say that words are only a sound pattern and have no intrinsic meaning.

The reality is that the Confederate Flag like the swastika is a symbol of evil - and most people recognise it as such - no amount of playing with words will change this - no matter what

The reality is that the swastika and the Confederate flag mean different things to different people. No amount of harping on just one meaning will change that. It has nothing to do with palying with words, and everything to do with recognizing that the world is not the simple, tidy place we might like it to be.


Speaking of words... the comparison between a visual symbol and a sound would be the correct one, and then you're absolutely right: a given sound pattern has no intrinsic meaning. That can be demonstrated just using English: we have "row" and "roe", "chased" and "chaste", "picked" and "Pict", "bite" and "byte", "red" and "read", "reed" and "read and "rede", "style" and "stile", "hoe" and "ho", "aloud" and "allowed", "noes" and "nose" and "knows", and the infamous "they're", "their", and "there". And if we go between languages, the examples are even more abundant -- for example, there's a vocal sound that in one language means "frozen waste", in another means "bold spirit", and in another "avenging demon".


The same is true of visual symbols.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

8 pages?

 

[btimsah]

I'm sure some find the gay pride flag offensive, should we ban it? Freedom is for everyone, even Fred Phelps.

When you follow the principles of freedom and justice you won't find yourself in these morally contradictory positions so often. Just go to you tube and type, "Ron Paul" and you'll be cured.

 

[Kulindahr]

I personally am not offended by the confederate flag. I think it's unfortunate that it has become a symbol for pseudo-jingoistic morons and racist/homophobes across the country. As someone from the south I do like to think of the flag as a symbol of southern pride. It's idealistic I know, but hey, I'm an idealistic kind of guy. I still wouldn't have a bumper sticker, license plate, etc. with the flag on it.

I wouldn't have such a bumper sticker, either, or even a small flag. But there are those who have one for good, respectable reasons, and it's part of freedom to let them. If there's something about it that gives them pride, more power to them -- and let them take on the morons who use it for bigotry.

This makes me think of the Iron Cross, which has taken on Nazi overtones. Some regard it as an evil, racist sign, but there are still those of German heritage who know it for what it was before the Nazis took it over: a sign of honor, of integrity, of service above and beyond the call of duty, of willing sacrifice for others. Should they -- especially those who still have the awards given their long-ago ancestors -- be required to give up that heritage, just because some degenerates debased the symbol?

The swastika was a holy mark, a fertility rune, long before it was anything else. If the people who still have that heritage have to give it up because some modern-day barbarians made use of it, then what has happened is that evil has won. The same is true of the old 'Dixie' battle flag: before it was despicable, it was borne with honor and pride. Anyone who thinks the people who still hold it that way are saying that evil should triumph, that because evil touched something it should be surrendered to evil.

If that principle holds, then someday we may have no symbols at all left to stand for good and great things.

 

[bankside]

No, Kulindahr, if we fail to acknowledge how symbols are appropriated then we give away the symbols that once stood for good and great things.

Show me an iron cross planted in a broken swastika, and then we'll talk. Symbols can reassert their better histories, but they have to become a symbol of deliberate reassertion. They can't just be as they were once they are tarnished by the malignant periods of history; they have to somehow denounce the malignancy.

 

[Kulindahr]

No, Kulindahr, if we fail to acknowledge how symbols are appropriated then we give away the symbols that once stood for good and great things.

Show me an iron cross planted in a broken swastika, and then we'll talk. Symbols can reassert their better histories, but they have to become a symbol of deliberate reassertion. They can't just be as they were once they are tarnished by the malignant periods of history; they have to somehow denounce the malignancy.

Merely using them in the good way and telling people what they actually mean is sufficient. Not everyone has to mount an ad campaign to stand for what's right.

There was a lot I didn't know about the Confederacy until I met a black guy who proudly hung a Confederate battle flag on his wall -- and explained why.


Besides, why should a symbol of honor be used to represent stomping on someone's holy symbol? That's what your suggestion of an Iron Cross on a broken swastika would mean to many millions of people -- and to many others, it would mean Nazis stomping their holy symbol.

 

[AsianDream]

Like the Swastica - the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism and of an evil system that was defeated.

In both cases it is reasonable that people should be offended by these Flags.

The practicalities of banning these symbols is another matter.

In the same way - "Holocaust Denial" is a criminal offence in Germany - while I think those that deny the Holocaust are at best deluded - I'm not sure that the concept of "criminal ideas" is right.

Just as most people today would abhor the ideas of the Confederacy - should denying the evils of the Confederacy be a crime?

 

[mydrew1]

I'm not American, but I find it offensive too. It belongs in a museum, nothing more.

 

[Kulindahr]

Like the Swastica - the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism and of an evil system that was defeated.

In both cases it is reasonable that people should be offended by these Flags.

The practicalities of banning these symbols is another matter.

In the same way - "Holocaust Denial" is a criminal offence in Germany - while I think those that deny the Holocaust are at best deluded - I'm not sure that the concept of "criminal ideas" is right.

Just as most people today would abhor the ideas of the Confederacy - should denying the evils of the Confederacy be a crime?

SO you're saying that because a symbol means something bad for some people, it can't be used for something positive by people for whom it's a source of pride?

Do you realize how insulting that is to the black guy I've mentioned? to tell him that because you see that flag in a certain way, he should be ashamed of it, too?

The swastika, as I've pointed out, is a holy symbol of fertility and/or peace for millions, perhaps tens of million, of people. Do they have to throw away something precious because someone else defaced it?

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm not American, but I find it offensive too. It belongs in a museum, nothing more.

So are you willing to go knock on the door of the black guy I met, and tell him he has to stop being proud of his ancestors and the symbol that to them meant protecting their homes against burning, raping hordes from the North?

My portion of Native American blood finds the Stars and Stripes offensive, because it stands for depriving people of their land, lying, broken trust, etc. Can we abolish it, too?

 

[TX-Beau]

So are you willing to go knock on the door of the black guy I met, and tell him he has to stop being proud of his ancestors and the symbol that to them meant protecting their homes against burning, raping hordes from the North?

My portion of Native American blood finds the Stars and Stripes offensive, because it stands for depriving people of their land, lying, broken trust, etc. Can we abolish it, too?

Ahhh, OK, now I get the other thread.

Soooooo, your anecdotal black man who's proud of his confederate flag and the ancestors that were protected under it (yeah, right .....so sad, Massa's in the cold dead ground, who's gwine tek care of us now?... Like I buy that.)

Is so diametrically opposed to all the anecdotal black people I know, one wonders if he's black like you're indian.

 

[Kulindahr]

Soooooo, your anecdotal black man who's proud of his confederate flag and the ancestors that were protected under it (yeah, right .....so sad, Massa's in the cold dead ground, who's gwine tek care of us now?... Like I buy that.)

Is so diametrically opposed to all the anecdotal black people I know, one wonders if he's black like you're indian.

So you don't buy something you made up yourself -- that's supposed to be impressive?

His ancestors were free blacks in the south, fighting for their homes, to protect them against the army that was burning and raping its way through the South. I call that something to be proud of.

Why is it that because the North won, Sherman is no longer an object of horror? Anyone who stood against that demon, for whatever reason, was a hero, and the descendants have perfect justification for being proud of the banner they fought under.

 

[TX-Beau]

So you don't buy something you made up yourself -- that's supposed to be impressive?

You claim to know a black guy who's "Proud" of the confederate flag, that's supposed to be convincing?

 

[TX-Beau]

Come on Kuli, you're smart enough to make your own arguments without conjuring up some nebulous anecdotal evidence to make your point.