Official: The Communist Manifesto

[Stardreamer]

The noble libertarianism sounds good but then so does marxism on paper. Both sounds a little to much like Picard's cashless/greed-less utopia in Star Trek Next Generation. When they finally try to dig into it we find it is no where as perfect (or cashless) as he portrays.

I'll have to find that book and read it. I am pretty sure I saw it in the ebook store.

Yep found it, a Baen book which makes it quite easy. Baen is one of the first publishers to not only embrace ebooks but make them easy to use. They have a wonderful approach to their ebook store where you can often get the first one or two books of a series like David Weber's Honor Harrington series for free. A wonderful marketing strategy.

Voyage From Yesteryear

 

[EastMed]

I don't think anybody is going to seriously argue that capitalism is not a flawed system. The issue is socialism/communism better? Capitalism for all its flaws is the least flawed system we have so far for the management of resources in large communities.

Capitalism has a poor record on optimum resource allocation.
An estimated $14 Trillion in wealth (of all kinds) has been lost since the start of the present crisis.

 

[kallipolis]

The problem with all these isms is not the theory, but the practical implementation of the theory into reality by human life.

In my opinion our focus should be the all too obvious short comings of the human being, rather than Utopian theories that work well on paper.

Count Leo Tolstoy's successful attempts at creating an anarchistic style Christian approach to community living/sharing, on his vast estates confirms that the individual human person can succeed, where the state often fails to deliver on its promises.

The Soviet Union simply replaced one ruling elite, with another that continued to exploit, and abuse the very people whom they claimed to support.

 

[Stardreamer]

Capitalism has a poor record on optimum resource allocation.
An estimated $14 Trillion in wealth (of all kinds) has been lost since the start of the present crisis.

Thus I say it is a flawed system, just the least flawed from what I can see of the various alternatives. Can you suggest what economic system would be better in your opinion and why?

 

[Stardreamer]

The problem with all these isms is not the theory, but the practical implementation of the theory into reality by human life.

In my opinion our focus should be the all too obvious short comings of the human being, rather than Utopian theories that work well on paper.

Count Leo Tolstoy's successful attempts at creating an anarchistic style Christian approach to community living/sharing, on his vast estates confirms that the individual human person can succeed, where the state often fails to deliver on its promises.

The Soviet Union simply replaced one ruling elite, with another that continued to exploit, and abuse the very people whom they claimed to support.

You illustrate my point of scale perfectly, you can make just about anything work on a small scale like an estate. Trying to project it to the level of countries is a different matter all together.

 

[kallipolis]

You illustrate my point of scale perfectly, you can make just about anything work on a small scale like an estate. Trying to project it to the level of countries is a different matter all together.

Count Leo Tolstoy's success in establishing a Communistic system on his estates, years ahead of the Bolshevik revolution, ensured that the Bolsheviks did not intervene and claim the estates for the revolution.

Tolstoy died in 1910 but his legacy does prove that a communistic system can flourish within a capitalist state, and within the confines of a state that masquerades as a Communist state.

Eventually the Soviet Union swallowed the Tolstoy family's estates, and integrated them into the soviet system.

 

[EastMed]

Thus I say it is a flawed system, just the least flawed from what I can see of the various alternatives. Can you suggest what economic system would be better in your opinion and why?

Broadly speaking, and in brief, an economic system that serves its citizens and doesn't hold them to ransom.

 

[Stardreamer]

Count Leo Tolstoy's success in establishing a Communistic system on his estates, years ahead of the Bolshevik revolution, ensured that the Bolsheviks did not intervene and claim the estates for the revolution.

Tolstoy died in 1910 but his legacy does prove that a communistic system can flourish within a capitalist state, and within the confines of a state that masquerades as a Communist state.

Eventually the Soviet Union swallowed the Tolstoy family's estates, and integrated them into the soviet system.

A pointed lesson there I think

 

[Stardreamer]

Broadly speaking, and in brief, an economic system that serves its citizens and doesn't hold them to ransom.

That is not a system, its a broad general set of requirements for what you would like a system to be.

 

[Stardreamer]

Broadly speaking, and in brief, an economic system that serves its citizens and doesn't hold them to ransom.

Well my first observation aside, the closest thing to this is as far as I know is a free market capitalist system depending on the supporting government structure.

 

[Kulindahr]

The noble libertarianism sounds good but then so does marxism on paper.

The difference being that n.l. recognizes that humans pursue their own self-interest and does not require an evolutionary step to reach.

Both sounds a little to much like Picard's cashless/greed-less utopia in Star Trek Next Generation. When they finally try to dig into it we find it is no where as perfect (or cashless) as he portrays.

I'll have to find that book and read it. I am pretty sure I saw it in the ebook store.

You have to go to the step beyond noble libertarianism to get cashless. But it requires some technological steps we haven't achieved yet, and may not be reachable with the present society as a starting point.

Count Leo Tolstoy's success in establishing a Communistic system on his estates, years ahead of the Bolshevik revolution, ensured that the Bolsheviks did not intervene and claim the estates for the revolution.

Tolstoy died in 1910 but his legacy does prove that a communistic system can flourish within a capitalist state, and within the confines of a state that masquerades as a Communist state.

Eventually the Soviet Union swallowed the Tolstoy family's estates, and integrated them into the soviet system.

His is an example I had in mind when I told Gorbachev he was doing it wrong: he should have chopped the Soviet Union down into estate-sized pieces where communism actually worked and let them relate in free-market fashion.

 

[Kulindahr]

As to the flaw in capitalism, I see it as simple: the medium by which information is conveyed concerning costs and wants holds intrinsic value of its own, and can be siphoned off in ways that distort the system. Thus unearned income flourishes, the more greatly the higher one is in the economic ladder, through instruments whereby the poor are charged for the privilege of being poor and the rich are paid for merely being rich.

 

[EastMed]

Well my first observation aside, the closest thing to this is as far as I know is a free market capitalist system depending on the supporting government structure.

OK. Let's have it.

 

[kallipolis]

As to the flaw in capitalism, I see it as simple: the medium by which information is conveyed concerning costs and wants holds intrinsic value of its own, and can be siphoned off in ways that distort the system. Thus unearned income flourishes, the more greatly the higher one is in the economic ladder, through instruments whereby the poor are charged for the privilege of being poor and the rich are paid for merely being rich.

The advantage of the capitalist system is that it is self correcting, when government intervenes to correct the imbalances, that will inevitably grow out of an ideology dedicated to profiting those owning the profit making enterprise.

Greed can become an obsessive end product that encourages not a few capitalists to lose touch with reality, and the values that they pretend to support.

The events of the past two years does illustrate that much more needs to be done to ensure that the financial markets, banking system and stock exchanges are supervised by those who are not bosom pals, of the very people they are authorised to regulate.

Investment banks, and main street banks need to be separated, so that the high risk taking investment banking industry does not compromise the security of the savings of the ordinary bank depositor.

No more bail outs for investment banks. I appreciate that in the USA, and the UK most of the bail out funds supplied by government has been repaid.

 

[Kulindahr]

The advantage of the capitalist system is that it is self correcting, when government intervenes to correct the imbalances, that will inevitably grow out of an ideology dedicated to profiting those owning the profit making enterprise.

It's self-correcting to an extent; 'repairs' stop when those with the greater portion of the wealth are satisfied, not when justice has been achieved and reparations made.

No more bail outs for investment banks. I appreciate that in the USA, and the UK most of the bail out funds supplied by government has been repaid.

I wouldn't say no bailouts -- I'd just make them contingent on allowing the bank to be broken up into nice little pieces that aren't anywhere close to being "too big to fail".

In my observation, the bigger the corporation, the more likely to screw over others, including entire nations (thus my recommendation that marijuana should be legal -- but production and distribution be confined to family-owned and -run companies). Keep 'em small.

 

[kallipolis]

In my observation, the bigger the corporation, the more likely to screw over others, including entire nations (thus my recommendation that marijuana should be legal -- but production and distribution be confined to family-owned and -run companies). Keep 'em small.

Noted that one, trying to slip through. No thanks.

 

[Kulindahr]

Take a good look at Catholic Religious Life, yesterday and today, ie;

1. Benedictine Order
2. Carmelite Order
3. Franciscan Order
4. Dominican Order
5. Augustinian Order

and the list can go on and on. As the Late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen has said that Religious life is like a form of Communism, and it does work, and that he knew that for the greater part of the world, it cannot work.

1, 4, and 5 are pretty autocratic. Autocratic communism, anyone?

 

[JB3]

It's not a system, nor is it a faith.

This means, quite plainly, that you know nothing about communism or socialism.

We do not believe in religion, let alone concepts of spiritualism.

Then stop treating it like one.

 

[Kulindahr]

explain what 'autocratic' means, please.

One person in charge.

 

[BostonPirate]

This means, quite plainly, that you know nothing about communism or socialism.


Then stop treating it like one.

agreed

communism is dogmatic. There are basic principles of the belief system that are unprovable.