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Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

Age and foreskin status ...

  • Under 30 and cut

    Votes: 24 16.9%
  • Under 30 and uncut

    Votes: 21 14.8%
  • 30-50 and cut

    Votes: 36 25.4%
  • 30-50 and uncut

    Votes: 16 11.3%
  • Over 50 and cut

    Votes: 31 21.8%
  • Over 50 and uncut

    Votes: 14 9.9%
  • I can't tell whether I'm cut or uncut

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    142
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

Which is a type of female genital mutilation, so we'll keep using that term, thank you.

And circumcision is a type of male genital mutilation. I am sorry, but if you cut a body with the intent of leaving a scar, you are mutilating it. And if you cut something off, you are amputating. Circumcision is the amputation of the foreskin. Period.

I find it peculiar at best when people who proclaim a woman's right to choose on the premise that 'it's her body' openly oppose a man's right to choose to be circumcised. I feel that infant circumcision violates the person that it is done to, it puts a new born at risk for no reason. Even in the case of Phimosis it would not seem to be a cause to circumcise inasmuch as the foreskin of an infant should not be pulled back, so who would know if it is too tight?

Excluding religious causes, circumcision became a common practice in the UK and the USA in the late 1800's thru the end of ww2. From all that I have read the reason for the procedure was the argument that masturbation caused club feet, epilepsy, mental retardation and numerous other problems in boys and that circumcision would serve as a deterrent to 'self abuse'. I have had to ask myself why all of the advocates of circumcision never asked themselves why they didn't have epilepsy or clubbed feet.

The practice was called into question with the advent of NHS in GB, put continued in the USA, but with the practice being called into question due to the internet it is on the decline with some insurances refusing to pay for it.
I grew up when over 90% of all males were circumcised and boys were made to shower naked after PE, so those who weren't 'cut' stuck out like a sore thumb and were often teased. The last thing an 11 year old boy wants is to be different, especially 'down there'.

Again, thanks to the internet American boys now know that a boy with a foreskin is completely normal even if he is in the minority. In the end, knowledge will win over ignorance, be patient.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

Methinks I give more thought to these poor people than those who are content with just letting it happen to someone else's son or daughter with perfect indifference.

Fair. Others prefer to spend our time with issues like malnutrition, clean drinking water and access to medical care, et al.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

...Again, thanks to the internet American boys now know that a boy with a foreskin is completely normal even if he is in the minority. In the end, knowledge will win over ignorance, be patient.
I can only relate to you what I've seen having lived in different countries where there were different practices.

Most of the countries when I've lived that had Muslim or Orthodox Jewish majorities, men seldom see other men naked unless they are close relatives. All your male relatives are circumcised; it's pretty much what you know as "normal". To them, circumcision is just a part of their culture and it's so closely tied in with the idea of "manhood" and religion that they don't give it much thought (unless it's your turn to get circumcised, if you live in a country that doesn't circumcise infants).

The worst examples of teasing that I have seen were in cultures where male nudity was more relaxed and circumcised penises were the overwhelming norm. In particular, I recall a guy in high school who moved from another country to the US. In gym class, it was the first time that most of the guys had seen an uncircumcised penis. The guy had the misfortune of having a lot of foreskin, so he was teased and called "anteater dick". The teasing soon spread outside of gym class.

I've also seen several guys who came to the US who ended up getting circumcisions because girls commented about it in unflattering terms when giving blowjobs.

Does most of the world care about the issue of male circumcision? Not from my experience. And unfortunately, for those who do care, it's become another way that one group insults people who are different than they are. It's that peer pressure that is also part of the problem. No man should be made to feel inadequate or unattractive over this issue... but unfortunately, that's usually what happens.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

The worst examples of teasing that I have seen were in cultures where male nudity was more relaxed and circumcised penises were the overwhelming norm. In particular, I recall a guy in high school who moved from another country to the US. In gym class, it was the first time that most of the guys had seen an uncircumcised penis. The guy had the misfortune of having a lot of foreskin, so he was teased and called "anteater dick". The teasing soon spread outside of gym class.

When I was at school, there was only one boy in my class (of about 25) who was circumcised. I wouldn't say he was teased or bullied because of it, but it was certainly commented on regularly.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

With more and more evidence extolling the benefits of circumcision, I am continuously surprised by the number of gay men (and yes, the vast majority of opponents are gay men) who need to insult their fellow brothers who are trimmed. I think it says more about their own body issues then anyone elses.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

When I was at school, there was only one boy in my class (of about 25) who was circumcised. I wouldn't say he was teased or bullied because of it, but it was certainly commented on regularly.
Out of curiosity, how could you tell he was circumcised?

One of the confounding things is that penises come in such a wide variety of shapes and sizes that sometimes I'm not sure whether a penis is circumcised or not unless I get close enough to see the scar (and even then, if the circumcision was an newborn circumcision, it can hard to tell in adult males because there's far less scar). It's becoming more common that physicians doing circumcisions for non-religious reasons are leaving more of the foreskin and more of the frenulum intact, so in younger guys sometimes it's difficult to be sure.

On the other hand, I find that a lot of adult uncircumcised males were never taught to retract and stretch their foreskin after puberty, so there's a lot of guys uncircumcised guys who have partial phimosis, partial adhesion and big problems with keeping it clean. For the guys whose pediatricians or parents dealt with incomplete foreskin detachment and mild phimosis when their children were young, it is much more difficult to be sure whether they are uncircumcised or not.... unless it's a cold room or I'm doing closer examination.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

I can see the justification back in 'the old days'
A foreskin was a trap for dirt and grit if you didn't have access to washing water like in a desert
As with so many archaic customs there was once a grain of truth or reason behind them
Jews and Muslims not eating pork was because pork was hard to preserve so didn't keep as long as beef
Not marrying outside your faith was a way of keeping the religion from being diluted
etc etc

Pork was dangerous due to parasites more than for preservation issues.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

He obviously had no foreskin covering his glans. Stood out a mile.
So, it was more of the religious style of circumcision where the glans is completely exposed. Makes sense, then.

Pork was dangerous due to parasites more than for preservation issues.
Except that when the laws were made, they weren't aware of parasites or their association with disease. I would speculate that it was more likely because they're filthy and difficult animals for a nomadic group of people to keep as domesticated food sources. Even today, pigs are used as garbage disposals by Christians in the middle east... it seems they will eat anything.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

Out of curiosity, how could you tell he was circumcised?

One of the confounding things is that penises come in such a wide variety of shapes and sizes that sometimes I'm not sure whether a penis is circumcised or not unless I get close enough to see the scar (and even then, if the circumcision was an newborn circumcision, it can hard to tell in adult males because there's far less scar). It's becoming more common that physicians doing circumcisions for non-religious reasons are leaving more of the foreskin and more of the frenulum intact, so in younger guys sometimes it's difficult to be sure.

.

I was born in 1952, I thought that I had been circumcised at birth as my penis looked like my older brothers. Then at the age of 10 an event occurred (I will spare you the details) that caused pressure on my glans, pushing the skin on my shaft back. This caused the foreskin that had been pushed back by my mother when I was an infant and had re-attached to the glans corona to detach, I suddenly had a foreskin. The area behind the glans was very sensitive. This was all caused by the fact that in America
we are afraid to say the word penis, there is such an ignorance that exists.

In my mid 20's I got circumcised, by choice. I had no idea that doctors were doing a looser cut on grown men, what was left still covered half of my glans. A few years later I had a hernia surgery done, it was an inguinal hernia. As I lay in bed recovering in the hospital (this was before it became an out patient procedure) I had about 3 or 4 residents or interns (I am not sure which) come in and try to talk me into getting circumcised. I am not sure if they were present during my surgery or if the surgeon sent them. To this day I am sure that most doctors could not tell if had the procedure unless they did a close inspection. Most men are not aware that circumcisions vary in 'style' for want of a better term.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

This was all caused by the fact that in America we are afraid to say the word penis, there is such an ignorance that exists.
There's also another problem- pediatricians and parents. I'm always surprised when parents don't know that in infants the prepuce (foreskin) is normally attached to the glans. During puberty, the foreskin should detach and a space should form between the prepuce and the glans. The foreskin should detach to the point where it can be moved backward without constricting blood flow to the glans. Uncircumcised boys should be taught by someone how to clean their penis (and you would be shocked how many are never taught).

There's a point around adolescence where pediatricians seem to be uncomfortable checking the genital development of male patients. The reasons cited are a) sometimes the parents are in the exam room, b) fear of embarrassing the patients and c) fear of being accused of inappropriate conduct. The result is that we end up with a lot of adult men who have problems like hydrocele, paraphimosis or inguinal hernias that should have been addressed when they were teenagers.

In my mid 20's I got circumcised, by choice. I had no idea that doctors were doing a looser cut on grown men, what was left still covered half of my glans. A few years later I had a hernia surgery done, it was an inguinal hernia. As I lay in bed recovering in the hospital (this was before it became an out patient procedure) I had about 3 or 4 residents or interns (I am not sure which) come in and try to talk me into getting circumcised. I am not sure if they were present during my surgery or if the surgeon sent them. To this day I am sure that most doctors could not tell if had the procedure unless they did a close inspection. Most men are not aware that circumcisions vary in 'style' for want of a better term.
That's an appropriate outcome.

Unless there's severe paraphimosis (where the foreskin gets trapped behind the glans and interferes with blood flow to the glans), there's no medical reason to remove the entire foreskin. Even in cases where there's scar tissue on the foreskin (a phimotic ring), some of the foreskin and the frenulum can be retained.

The younger urologists are getting better about discussing how much foreskin adult patients would like to retain if possible so that there's an aesthetic appeal for the patient (and their partner). Unfortunately, pediatricians are lagging behind on discussing this with parents who wish to have their infants circumcised.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

I find it peculiar at best when people who proclaim a woman's right to choose on the premise that 'it's her body' openly oppose a man's right to choose to be circumcised.

No we do not. But the toddler in Italy was not a man, old enough to make an informed decision. Others made the decision for him and THAT is something we oppose very strongly indeed.

Her body, her choice. His body, his choice.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

When I was at school, there was only one boy in my class (of about 25) who was circumcised. I wouldn't say he was teased or bullied because of it, but it was certainly commented on regularly.

Indeed. The cutters and snippers often tell the opposite story, about the intact boy being bullied to death by his circumcised peers. Well, I've been the intact boy among dozens of cut ones on many occasions, and all I ever experienced was a healthy boyish curiosity with some obvious envy mixed in. The odd religious fanatic who commented harshly was usually swiftly dismissed as "protesting too much" by the other boys.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

Terms like intact and mutilated are simply accurate. A circumcised penis is one that has been mutilated, an uncircumcised penis is one that has been allowed to remain intact. And yes, according to Mother Nature, that IS what a penis should look like. Deal with it.

No -- "mutilated" is misleading and emotionally loaded. "Altered" would be more correct, since "mutilated" implies gross disfiguration.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

No -- "mutilated" is misleading and emotionally loaded. "Altered" would be more correct, since "mutilated" implies gross disfiguration.

Believe me, to Europeans or Thai or Argentines or Australians who grow up around normal penises, a circumcised one IS grossly disfigured. Imagine never having seen a tattoo before. It's that weird.
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

No -- "mutilated" is misleading and emotionally loaded. "Altered" would be more correct, since "mutilated" implies gross disfiguration.

Dictionary.com

Mutilated:
to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts

Sounds exactly right to me
 
Re: Italy circumcision kills toddler, with one man charged

Kulindahr said:
No -- "mutilated" is misleading and emotionally loaded. "Altered" would be more correct, since "mutilated" implies gross disfiguration.
Or how about just "circumcised"?

This is the logical fallacy known as "whataboutism".

Ah yes, because world-wide 1 in 9 children die from diarrheal illness related to sanitation and clean drinking water. I'm sure that is dwarfed by those who die after a circumcision? :rolleyes:

This is the logical fallacy known as "first world problem".
 
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