Oregon Shooting - Not again!

[Kulindahr]

I love how the right wing logic applies to gun rights but not marijuana.

That's Republicans for you -- the only rights people should be allowed to exercise are the ones they like. But we're a lot closer to being a society where we could drop the laws on recreational drugs than to where we could drop the laws on guns.

 

[Kulindahr]

Quite right.

What's not rare is women being killed by their partners and ex partners in the US. Around 70 percent of deaths in domestic violence incidents in the US are caused by guns. Three women are killed by a partner or ex partner with a gun every day in the US. Women who live in a household where guns are kept are at substantially greater statistical likelihood of being killed in a domestic violence incident. Domestic violence assaults involving a firearm are 12 times more likely to result in death than those involving other weapons or bodily force.

http://smartgunlaws.org/the-difference-a-gun-makes/#more-21499

Even more common are suicide gun deaths. Over 50% of all suicides in the US are committed with a firearm. On average, 49 gun suicides were committed each day for the years 2005-2010. A study of California handgun purchasers found that in the first year after the purchase of a handgun, suicide was the leading cause of death among the purchasers. More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend. The risk of successful suicide increases in homes where guns are kept loaded and/or unlocked.

http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun-studies-statistics/gun-violence-statistics/

The proper prescription for this is education and training. We should start firearms training in grade school, with the NRA's award-winning (and proven effective) "Eddie Eagle" program, and move on to safety in handling, drilling in the concepts until they're second nature. Training should get people into the same mind-set I have: that pointing guns at human beings is not what they're for, except when someone engages in potentially lethal violence against people or a few other circumstances. Guns are for aiming at cans, targets, food animals when you need one, pumpkins, balloons -- but not humans.

 

[Kulindahr]

To be fair, I guess the same is true of the left-wingers who want prohibition of guns, but acknowledge that it's useless for drugs.

Bingo.

Neither of the "Big Two" sides of the two-faced whore called Congress really believes in the Bill of Rights.

 

[Rolyo85]

To be fair, I guess the same is true of the left-wingers who want prohibition of guns, but acknowledge that it's useless for drugs.

Um, that would be because it's way harder to kill a theater full of people with recreational drugs than with a semi-automatic... To equate guns with drugs... makes a sense that is not.

 

[chance1]

Anyone know how the victims are doing ?

Never mind

Flail away

 

[palemale]

Do you seriously believe that gun control laws will keep guns out of the hands of criminals? Get serious.

The majority of gun crimes in New York City are committed with guns purchased legally in states with weak gun laws. So yes, gun control laws would keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Obviously not all, but it would seriously reduce the amount of gun violence.

 

[HenryReardon]

My point was quite germane to this thread. You can't reject the "prohibition is pointless because the vice is pervasive" argument with respect to one debate and embrace it with another.

Well, you can, but you can't maintain any sort of intellectual consistency.

I haven't rejected the "prohibition is pointless" argument. The US experimented with prohibition from 1920-1933, and should have learned a lesson from it.

 

[HenryReardon]

. Obviously not all, but it would seriously reduce the amount of gun violence.

Unfortunately for your position, so does the issuance of concealed carry permits. There are plenty of statistics detailing a drop in gun violence after concealed carry laws take effect. Look it up.

 

[chance1]

Last I heard the surviving victim was the 15 year old girl in surgery for chest wounds, and she's in serious condition still.

The mall is going to reopen today. I feel bad for the businesses too that are taking this at the worst possible time of year.

There should be more updates on the mall's Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/ClackamasTownCenter

Thanks JB - girls with chest wounds is a phrase we would all like to see never

I respect the rights of law abiding citizens to carry

I wish they wouldn't

Mistakes in judgement with a gun can be devastating or fatal

But lets not forget who committed the crimes

I think reasonable people can and have debated this issue

With common sense access and timing constraints

And thorough background checks

With a common goal of preventing misery and death

 

[Jack Springer]

Um, that would be because it's way harder to kill a theater full of people with recreational drugs than with a semi-automatic... To equate guns with drugs... makes a sense that is not.

Makes a lot of sense. A killer could contaminate the popcorn or soda with "recreational drugs". Recently in Colorado two people did just that with a class -- they put pot in brownies without the knowledge of fellow classmates including the teacher. Many were deathly ill.

What it comes down to is the person who does the killing is the problem ... not the method of killing.

Information on the young girl who was wounded.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/clackamas_town_center_shooting_43.html

 

[HenryReardon]

What it comes down to is the person who does the killing is the problem ... not the method of killing.


Just so. Guns don't kill people—people kill people.

 

[Jack Springer]

It happens in China too.

A man slashed 22 children and 1 adult in a school. It wasn't mentioned in the article how badly the children were harmed.

What do we do now -- ban knives?

http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story


God bless the souls of the 20 children and the 6 adults who were murdered today. Please pray for their families.

 

[Kulindahr]

Unfortunately for your position, so does the issuance of concealed carry permits. There are plenty of statistics detailing a drop in gun violence after concealed carry laws take effect. Look it up.

Don't forget that the drop applies to all crimes against persons -- while OTOH crimes against property with no people present has actually been shown to rise.

 

[Kulindahr]

I respect the rights of law abiding citizens to carry

I wish they wouldn't

Mistakes in judgement with a gun can be devastating or fatal

Statistically, police make mistakes in judgment more often than the armed citizen in most situations. The difference is crisis situations like this when the armed good guy gets there after the beginning: then cops have the edge.

That's a way of saying that unless you've had the training for crisis situations, and you're armed, wait for the cops and offer your help instead of playing hero.

 

[chance1]

Statistically, police make mistakes in judgment more often than the armed citizen in most situations. The difference is crisis situations like this when the armed good guy gets there after the beginning: then cops have the edge.

That's a way of saying that unless you've had the training for crisis situations, and you're armed, wait for the cops and offer your help instead of playing hero.

i'm fine with better training for cops

their job (protecting citizens) requires it

the rest is silly

and you kuli - should take a break on your pro gun stance which frankly is an obsession

the timing is just not right

 

[Telstra]

If we dig up the shooting threads,
how many shootings are there ?

 

[Kulindahr]

If we dig up the shooting threads,
how many shootings are there ?

I dunno.

I do know that the blabberheads on the tube have given us two more hours of coverage about the shooting today and mostly just asked each other questions that led to saying the same things as before. Personally, I don't think that's a favor to the survivors or the victims' loved ones: we know what happened, so unless there's anything new, they should shut their traps and let people grieve.

 

[R.B.S.]

The majority of gun crimes in New York City are committed with guns purchased legally in states with weak gun laws. So yes, gun control laws would keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Obviously not all, but it would seriously reduce the amount of gun violence.

In Russia there are lots of issues of murder by traumatic guns (mostly in nightclubs, etc). The traumatic guns were legalised in Russia, and some people use it for attack. not for self-defence.

I believe that this self-defence thing is total bullsh***. A peaceful person should be protected by the police. Why no one hear about such crime in Scandinavia (except of one Nazi-maniac in Norwegia)? Because Scandianvian (and European in general) society is less machistic and militaristic than the USA and modern Russia.

 

[Kulindahr]

In Russia there are lots of issues of murder by traumatic guns (mostly in nightclubs, etc). The traumatic guns were legalised in Russia, and some people use it for attack. not for self-defence.

I believe that this self-defence thing is total bullsh***. A peaceful person should be protected by the police. Why no one hear about such crime in Scandinavia (except of one Nazi-maniac in Norwegia)? Because Scandianvian (and European in general) society is less machistic and militaristic than the USA and modern Russia.

How can anyone be protected by the police? Are the police everywhere? Do they stand watch over your bed at night? Do they walk you home from a bar at night? Do they go into the bathroom with you at a public toilet?

Depending on protection by people who aren't actually there to protect you is gambling with your life.

 

[R.B.S.]

I don't know how it's in America, but the most burglars in Russia try to rob an apartment when the inhibitants are outside (maybe on holidays, etc).

You can just install an iron door. Most Russians do so.

But I think it's quite rare now when burglars try to rob the flat with inhibitants inside and to kill someone.

So I don't undertand how a gun will save you from a burgalar.
An iron door is more suitable, I suppose.

Yet, I've never been in the USA, so in fact, I can't judge. We live in flats (or rich Russians live in heavy brick cotteges).

Maybe the construction of a typical American cottage is not so protected. Maybe you use more plastic and glass, I dunno.