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O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in school

Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

I think you are greatly misconceiving my position. I do not take it on faith that if something can not be measured, it does not exist (faith is belief without rational justification for that belief), I, however, simply understand that if something has no evidence, if it has not been measured, than there is no rational justification to believe it is true. It is fine to speculate, hell, I am extremely fascinated by one of the greatest speculations of present time - string theory, but understand that it is not proven, has no real evidence at this point (it doesn't even have a method for laboratory experiment), and even I will admit the possibility of a god (in as much as the I'll admit the flying spaghetti monster, fairies, unicorns, etc have a possibility of existing), but until I see evidence, I will never believe there is a god...that's just plain irrational. It's the irrationality I have a problem with - and religion falls right in the middle of that irrationality. Just because you have filled the gaps of your understanding of the universe with a faith based belief doesn't mean all others do as well.

So technically you're an agnostic -- which, yes, requires no faith at all (except, with respect to Bishop Berkeley, for faith in your ability to perceive the world).

I read an article about string theory a while back, and the author -- a prominent physicist; I forget who -- said, "There's no such thing as string theory -- there are forty-eight different string theories". I knew it was speculation, but I hadn't realized it was quite that chaotic!
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Your post was one of the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this subject.

So God could only BARELY do better than what man of the time could?

What does that say about the holiness, righteousness, power, authority, et al of this God?

Your argument that he couldn't be too much better than man or they wouldn't have followed him is pure comedy. If a being really existed that actually performed the kind of acts described in the bible, he could have said anything he wanted and gotten people to follow him.

What it says about this God is that He respects the individuality of people. Did you even note the occasion I referred to, with the Golden Calf? That was rebellion when they at that point had very simple instructions.

You're quite wrong in saying "he could have said anything he wanted and gotten people to follow him" -- He could have gotten puppets, but that wouldn't be following: "following" means of one's own free will.



edit:

It occurred to me that the Religious Right, if there's truly a God they're following, does not help this case. I would argue, though, that they've turned themselves into puppets.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

What it says about this God is that He respects the individuality of people. Did you even note the occasion I referred to, with the Golden Calf? That was rebellion when they at that point had very simple instructions.
Well I don't buy that this God ever existed so whatever they were rebelling against isn't what I am referring to as God (that is if this story ever happened).

You're quite wrong in saying "he could have said anything he wanted and gotten people to follow him" -- He could have gotten puppets, but that wouldn't be following: "following" means of one's own free will.
I'll just have to roundly disagree with you there. I think if a pillar of fire came out of the sky and said it was God and told me to do things, I would be pretty inclined to do them. There would be no coercion necessary.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Using biblical stories to try and counter logic with regards to the morality of your god is a bit useless to be frank.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

No, because science and religion have nothing to do with each other.

Irrelevant -- they're both systems of thought.

Your religion requires you to believe the impossible.

That's an article of your faith.

Your religion requires you to just believe, just 'cause.

Another article of your faith.

You're telling me that I'll never believe unless I just believe, that's a religious injunction that has nothing to do with science at all.

Bluntly: do a better job of reading -- that isn't what I said at all.

Science would require, not only that I do NOT take things "on their own terms," but that I actually have data, actively try to disprove it, then subject it to all my relevant peers who then will rip it to shreds. In an attempt to find any terms at all that will prove me wrong.

That's nice, but it doesn't address anything I said.

Your religion requires you to just believe, just 'cause. No proof, no data, no peer review, just 'cause.

Again, that's an article of your faith.

And the reason I trust science over religion is that your car works, your computer works, planes fly, there are rovers on mars and a million other miracles that religion has never been able to produce.

"Religion" isn't interested in computers, planes, rovers, or any other widgets -- those aren't its territory.

But as far as miracles, I witnessed a few, and experienced some.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Again, my computer doesn't require faith to function. Equivocation does nothing to change that basic fact.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Well I don't buy that this God ever existed so whatever they were rebelling against isn't what I am referring to as God (that is if this story ever happened).

So your position is that you can modify the content of the system of thought you're studying, to make it come out however you want.
The question isn't what you want to refer to as God, but what the Bible says is God -- that is, if you're interested in evaluating the Bible for truth.

I'll just have to roundly disagree with you there. I think if a pillar of fire came out of the sky and said it was God and told me to do things, I would be pretty inclined to do them. There would be no coercion necessary.

I'd say the pillar of fire itself qualifies as coercion.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Ok, so it's god's intention that his existence is so vague that believing in him, via his direct appearence to us, would be in breach of our free will?

What I'm puzzeled at is gods apparent inferiority complex. Why does he need us to worship him?
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

… until I see evidence, I will never believe there is a god...

Existence can be a rather subjective proposition. The words I’ve quoted from your post [above] suggest that there is an entity requesting proof. Underlying that concept, I am curious to know if you think that your personal consciousness somehow emerges from the matter of your being or whether consciousness is perhaps a fundamental property of all matter? More succinctly, how can you prove that you exist?

In a friendlier context, given the preponderance of god-believers in society, I think it is beneficial for individuals from both poles of the god-belief continuum to discover ways to interact and share ideas. It seems that the overall aptitude of our intelligence should enable us to hypostatize a means to bring about some meaningful exchange – even if each side of the argument regards the other to be somewhat imaginatively based.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Using biblical stories to try and counter logic with regards to the morality of your god is a bit useless to be frank.

Um... no, because the Bible is the data for the discussion.

And you're not applying logic, anyway; you're asserting a set of morals from outside and applying those to the bible. That's like saying Alice in Wonderland is a stupid story because it doesn't conform to the plot lines of A Midsummer Night's Dream.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

So your position is that you can modify the content of the system of thought you're studying, to make it come out however you want.

No, my position is that I do not have to assume facts about a system are necessarily true that the system asserts of itself. If the only way for God's actions to make sense in the OT is if he really is God (which I disagree with as well), that does not mean God exists. The entire document could still be made up.

I did not mean to say that I had already decided God did not exist before examining the truth of the Bible. What I am saying is that, analysis of the Bible, absent any other evidence for the truth therein, leads me to believe that it is not true. So the basic assumptions you build in to any analysis of it are not ones I share.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

But as far as miracles, I witnessed a few, and experienced some.

Now this is fascinating. If you would indulge me, can you please describe, in as great a detail as possible, a recount of one of these witnessed miracles? And then, if you would be so kind as to show me how this miracle could not have come about by any other means other than by divine intervention.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Existence can be a rather subjective proposition. The words I’ve quoted from your post [above] suggest that there is an entity requesting proof. Underlying that concept, I am curious to know if you think that your personal consciousness somehow emerges from the matter of your being or whether consciousness is perhaps a fundamental property of all matter? More succinctly, how can you prove that you exist?

I've seen this little mind game played before. The idea that, since a person can not know how another interprets and experiences the world, the only thing any one person can know with absolute certainty is their own existence, but how does one go and offer such proof to those who may not experience and interpret the world the same way?

Yeah, it's a funky little think game, but is a question of philosophy, not science. Just like "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Interesting philosophical debate, but holds absolutely no debate in science: yes, it makes a sound - a falling tree releases energy, compressing air which forms sound waves that travel through the atmosphere at a rate of about 343 meters per second.

Now, as far as where personal consciousness emerges: from the human brain, of course. Consciousness, self awareness, "existing", all are simply a product of specific interactions between biochemical agents (hormones, electrolytes, etc), action potential currents along neurons, and target cells that make up the mechanism by which the human brain functions. The fact that we are able to use such biological mechanisms to label the self awareness of existence as "consciousness" allows for the creation of the types of thinking games you have proposed but does not make it anything more than just a series of chemical reactions taking place in your cranium. I also think that because "consciousness" is an inherent part of being a living creature with the evolutionary capability of being "conscious" as defined by humans, because it is something we are never without, there are so many questions raised about death, about what happens to the "consciousness" when the biological mechanisms responsible for it no longer function. I believe it is that question that has been the building block of nearly every religion we see today. I did happen to find an extremely satisfying answer to this question, an answer, I have found, infinitely more comforting than the promise of eternal heaven via specific conditions or the threat of eternal hell via insubordination towards those conditions. It is a lovely quote by Mark Twain, who said "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions of years before I was born and did not suffer the slightest inconvenience from it." That is a perfect answer to the question of what happens when you die. Your experience after your life ends will be exactly the same as your experience was before your life began.

Now, on the topic of consciousness, as it applies to all of matter (I am talking of matter as defined by physics): Consciousness, as defined by humans, is not inherent to all matter because all matter is not made up of a specific interactions between biochemical agents (hormones, electrolytes, etc), action potential currents along neurons, and target cells that make up the mechanism by which the human brain functions. If you want to see consciousness as emerging from the matter of my being, that's I think a valid point, but no more significant than my finger nails emerging as a matter of my being or the function of my heart or liver. It's all just a bunch of complicated biological functions that are the result of billions of years of evolution.

It may be discomforting to some that their entire existence is just a series of complex biochemical reactions, and it is natural to have a somewhat grander idea of what makes a person who they are (hence "consciousness", a soul, the belief that we were created in the image of our creator - an all powerful eternal god, etc), but, at least for me, an understanding of the principles behind the complex system (such as a human being) does not diminish the inherent value I have for that system (namely, human life). Taking it one step further, even the understanding that the value I have for my life and the lives of others is just another evolutionarily developed advantage meant to further the prorogation of our species does not diminish the meaning of the value that I have.

Now, to answer your question: how can I prove I exist? In philosophy, I can't. In science, a non-doctored photograph would do just fine.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Ok, so it's god's intention that his existence is so vague that believing in him, via his direct appearence to us, would be in breach of our free will?

What I'm puzzeled at is gods apparent inferiority complex. Why does he need us to worship him?

No, it's rather that God's being is so REAL that in comparison we are as flimsy constructs of tissue paper before a burning tornado.


I don't think it says anywhere that God needs us to worship Him -- from the Bible's perspective, the need is ours, do we but recognize it.

Nor do I believe that by "worship" the Bible really means kneeling, bowing, singing, burning incense, ringing bells, or any such thing -- those those may be, depending. Worship consists of engaging with God's thoughts, of delighting in what delights Him -- the splendor of a sunset, the elegance of a relativity equation, the intricacy of mitosis, the exercise of superb physical fitness, the 1812 Overture, all done in awareness of Him and thankfulness for His Creation.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Now this is fascinating. If you would indulge me, can you please describe, in as great a detail as possible, a recount of one of these witnessed miracles? And then, if you would be so kind as to show me how this miracle could not have come about by any other means other than by divine intervention.

Here's hoping my internet connection remains stable....

The one with greatest impact on me was at a Lutheran prayer/study conference. During a worship session, someone stood up and spoke in a language I didn't understand. In accordance with the instructions St. Paul gives, the pastor asked if there was an interpretation. Suddenly I knew what the guy had said, but was too chicken to say it. A few seconds later, someone else stood up and gave an interpretation. I got chills, because it was just like being in Greek class, where I'd done my translation ready but someone else got called on, whose work varied slightly from the way I'd done it but carried the same basic sense of the passage.
Then the pastor did the next step as Paul had set them down, and asked if there were any confirmations. My hand shot up, as did two others.
We checked later, and no one involved knew what language had been spoken. Those of us who had "confirmed" compared what we would have said if we'd spoken up, and again it was just like Greek class: different wordings, same basic message.

Now, when you've got a person standing up and speaking in a language he doesn't know, and the meaning of what he said is independently confirmed by four people, something beyond the natural is going on. One might guess ESP, but that doesn't account for the original speech, which a number of people familiar with different languages said definitely sounded like a language.
But it did match what the Apostle Paul described in his letter to the Corinthians, so to me the simplest explanation would be that it was just what he described.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

Existence can be a rather subjective proposition. The words I’ve quoted from your post [above] suggest that there is an entity requesting proof. Underlying that concept, I am curious to know if you think that your personal consciousness somehow emerges from the matter of your being or whether consciousness is perhaps a fundamental property of all matter? More succinctly, how can you prove that you exist?

Cogito, ergo sum.

Descartes was quite right that without the exercise of faith, that's all anyone can know: I exist. We can only take it on faith that the apparent perceptions of our experienced senses are in fact not part of us.

But Descartes' proof works only for the person who is cogitating; it is useless to prove anything to another (if there are others, since that hasn't been proven).

His step of believing in others (I'll exclude believing in God here) isn't the sort of caricature faith, though, that so many here put up: "believing without evidence"; it's the sort of faith the Bible talks about, i.e. believing beyond the evidence. In a sort of statistical inference, we interpret the actions of other beings apparently like us as showing they, too, are selves, who can prove their own existences to themselves by the same cogito, ergo argument.

That's a roundabout way of saying that we can each prove that we exist, i.e. that we have consciousness -- but that we cannot prove it to anyone else.

As to from whence consciousness comes, those who believe it can't arise from randomness abound. At root, as science presently understands the universe, everything at the foundation is random, and above that is merely statistical "summaries" of that randomness -- so how can any product of that be anything but another result of randomness, without any more meaning than the group behavior of angelfish.

Most of the week, that's where I am. On Thursdays, I entertain the possibility that I'm just a simulation in some vast computer; on Fridays I argue that chemistry is all, and consciousness is illusion; on Saturdays I cast it all to the wind and embrace beingness, and on Sunday I delight in being a little 'I am' in reflection of the great I AM.
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

No, it's rather that God's being is so REAL that in comparison we are as flimsy constructs of tissue paper before a burning tornado.

That being so, he made us that way. Soooo...he dilliberately designed us so that he couldn't comunicate directly with us. Aye, I can see the aplication of logic here, clear as day.


I don't think it says anywhere that God needs us to worship Him -- from the Bible's perspective, the need is ours, do we but recognize it.

Then why the compulsion, the threats of damnation? If he doesn't give a shit then why is he, as it says in the pamphlet, a jellous god, who will have no other before him?
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

That being so, he made us that way. Soooo...he dilliberately designed us so that he couldn't comunicate directly with us. Aye, I can see the aplication of logic here, clear as day.

No, we did it to ourselves.

Then why the compulsion, the threats of damnation? If he doesn't give a shit then why is he, as it says in the pamphlet, a jellous god, who will have no other before him?

There's no compulsion or threats, only warning. And who said "he doesn't give a shit"???

Why is He a jealous God? Well, if you had kids, how would you like it if they just went off and started calling someone else "Dad"?
 
Re: O'Reilly shows us we can't have religion in sc

So, as to all the humans for the tens of thousands of years before Christianity's emergence who worshiped other gods: why did it take so long for humanity to recognise the true God? Did all souls before Christianity go to Hell for worshipping other deities? Even Plato and Socrates? Why did God wait so long before making His existence known to man? :-)
 
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