Palingate just got better, the baby daddy

[robertstar]

Redneck refers to a stereotype of usually rural, Caucasian (i.e. white) people of lower socio-economic status in the United States and Canada. Originally limited to the Appalachians, and later the South, the Ozarks, the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains, this stereotype is now widespread throughout North America. Southern comedian Jeff Foxworthy defines "redneck" as "a glorious lack of sophistication," stating "that we are all guilty of [it] at one time or another."
- Link

Redneck Informal: Often Disparaging.
–noun
1. an uneducated white farm laborer, esp. from the South.
2. a bigot or reactionary, esp. from the rural working class.
–adjective
3. Also, red-necked. narrow, prejudiced, or reactionary: a redneck attitude.

Redneck
n. Offensive Slang
1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.
2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

Redneck
noun
a poor White person in the southern United States

Redneck
A slang term, usually for a rural white southerner who is politically conservative, racist, and a religious fundamentalist (see fundamentalism). This term is generally considered offensive. It originated in reference to agricultural workers, alluding to how the back of a person's neck will be burned by the sun if he works long hours in the fields.

- Link (For All Above)

The argument that redneck is an ’acceptable cultural distinction’ gives way to a startling lack of knowledge of the word itself. The term is just as derogatory as labelling a gay man a fag or a black man a nigger, because by applying the term redneck your attaching the same kind discriminatory stereotypes to someone as the aforementioned words do. You’re using the word to belittle and mock - it’s pointing and laughing at the stupid poor white people who don’t know better, don’t they know they should be ’bettering’ themselves?

 

[Lostlover]

Why is anyone even responding to Robertstar?

He's taken up the cause of the rednecks. Just as NickCole and Iman have taken up the cause of disgruntled women (PUMAs).

 

[robertstar]

You looking it up in the dictionary shows a startling lack of knowledge of actually being born, growing up, and living in rural American South. Your definitions even defend my point, in order of your cut-and-paste job, definitions 2 and 3 (group 1) and 2 (group 2) and parts of the definition of the fourth listing.

Just so I’m clear on this your point is that you’re a hypocrite? Its ok to be a bigot as long as your bigotry is directed toward people who may or may not be bigots themselves? Yes lets preach about how evil bigotry and discrimination is whilst practising it ourselves, that’ll make them see the error of their ways and not add fuel to the fire at all.

For the record I came to this conclusion because as far as I can tell the definitions you pointed to all have the common theme that the word redneck is linked to those who can display bigoted attitudes and opinions. But maybe I'm missing the point you're trying to make.

Previously raised though poorly summarized, NickCole pointed out Chris Rock, who makes a distinction BETWEEN those two groups---one can be the former without being the latter.

I'm not even closing to grasping the point you want to make here.

The term is just as derogatory as labelling a gay man a fag or a black man a nigger, because by applying the term redneck your attaching the same kind discriminatory stereotypes to someone as the aforementioned words do.

That's what you were responding to and obviously I'm missing something because I don't grasp the relevance of what you're saying to what I said.

Yes, they should be, and some choose not to do it, and so this is why a group of comedians became wealthy on their "Blue Collar Comedy Tours", wealthy NOT in liberal elite university cities, but across the country.

Yes how dare anyone be satisfied and happy with their life! These stupid poor white idiots!

It’s almost hard to believe that the Republicans find it so easy to paint the Democrats as elitist…

He's taken up the cause of the rednecks. Just as NickCole and Iman have taken up the cause of disgruntled women (PUMAs).

Not what I’ve done at all.

This post could have been made about any group and my response would have been eerily similar. I’m not on a mission to defend the honour of rednecks, I’m pointing out that discrimination/bigotry is discrimination/bigotry regardless of who it is aimed at and in an election where everyone has been walking on eggshells around the issues of race and gender this thread is horribly hypocritical.

 

[robertstar]

You come to this conclusion by way of strawman arguments. I stated that 'redneck' is a cultural distinction. It isn't by class or race or any other matter. It isn't a matter set in stone, nor is it something that cannot be prevented or fixed.

The problem with this argument is that the definitions you pointed out as ‘defending’ your view point don’t fit this point of view as much as you seem to believe they do. The first one you point to includes the phrase ‘especially from the rural working class‘, whilst the third one you pointed to includes the phrase ‘a white person’. So in reality the distinction is made by race and class.

Of course this argument adds up even less when we remember that earlier in this thread you argued that people have no control or choice over how much they weigh so it is unfair to discriminate against them based on weight but more acceptable to discriminate against someone based on their religion because that’s a choice they make. By the same token if someone believes that we choose to be gay would it become more acceptable for them to discriminate against us than if they believe we have no choice/control over our sexuality?

My point here is to continue my repetition that I don’t believe it’s the group that decides the severity of the discrimination/bigotry but the act itself.

And again its hard to believe that Republicans find it so easy to use that elitist tag when you assert that someone needs to ‘fix’ their life because they aren’t the perfect image of what you want them to be. I can’t imagine why this elitist tag has worked so well for them over the years and why Obama, his campaign and supporters have had such trouble winning the support of these voters, don’t they know Obama is going to fix them?

Probably because you couldn't spin up a strawman argument to this one. I excised a lot of material from your post to summarize it down. Definitions and meanings have a fluidity here in the US.

ME: The term is just as derogatory as labelling a gay man a fag or a black man a nigger, because by applying the term redneck your attaching the same kind discriminatory stereotypes to someone as the aforementioned words do.

ICO: Previously raised though poorly summarized, NickCole pointed out Chris Rock, who makes a distinction BETWEEN those two groups---one can be the former without being the latter.

Essentially your response was 'you can be a nigger without being black', which is connected to the point I was making how? I’m sure you’ll accuse me of using a straw man argument here (because that’s what you do when you have no other answer) but I really would be interested in knowing what relevance you think your reply actually had to my original statement.

If ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise. That seems to be how you approach your arguments too. You obviously don't 'get' this country, but it doesn't stop you from your asinine arguments.

More of your elitist high horse moralising.

Is it that hard for you to believe that people can be satisfied with their lives and not desperately want to ‘better themselves’ in your eyes? Clearly it is because so far in this thread you’ve responded to a sarcastic comment from me about how poor white people should be bettering themselves with the words ‘they should’ and have now seemingly described those are happy with their lives as ignorant. Your assertion is that no one should be happy or proud of who/what they are but should constantly be striving to fix who they are, because the poor choose to be poor and everyone should always choose to be wealthy, because it’s a choice we all make.

No, it's hypocritical that they do. As an independent, I've easily seen the problems with both the leading parties in this country. As an outsider, you should too... you don't, however.

Please continue to try and put words in my mouth.

Obvioulsy when I said 'It’s almost hard to believe that the Republicans find it so easy to paint the Democrats as elitist…' what I actually meant was that Democrats are elitists and the Republicans are absolutely right to paint that picture of them.

Next JUBers mock Klansmen and Neo-Nazis, I'll be sure to anticipate your defense of them.

This post could have been made about any group and my response would have been eerily similar. I’m not on a mission to defend the honour of rednecks, I’m pointing out that discrimination/bigotry is discrimination/bigotry regardless of who it is aimed at and in an election where everyone has been walking on eggshells around the issues of race and gender this thread is horribly hypocritical.

Basically when/if JUB uses offensive and bigoted stereotypes and views to attack the KKK or Neo-Nazi’s I’ll be happy to point out the hypocrisy of answering bigotry with bigotry. It is one thing to say that what they’re doing is wrong and another to say what they’re doing is wrong and follow it with racist and bigoted comments of your own.

 

[Lostlover]

The problem with this argument is that the definitions you pointed out as ‘defending’ your view point don’t fit this point of view as much as you seem to believe they do. The first one you point to includes the phrase ‘especially from the rural working class‘, whilst the third one you pointed to includes the phrase ‘a white person’. So in reality the distinction is made by race and class.

Of course this argument adds up even less when we remember that earlier in this thread you argued that people have no control or choice over how much they weigh so it is unfair to discriminate against them based on weight but more acceptable to discriminate against someone based on their religion because that’s a choice they make. By the same token if someone believes that we choose to be gay would it become more acceptable for them to discriminate against us than if they believe we have no choice/control over our sexuality?

My point here is to continue my repetition that I don’t believe it’s the group that decides the severity of the discrimination/bigotry but the act itself.

And again its hard to believe that Republicans find it so easy to use that elitist tag when you assert that someone needs to ‘fix’ their life because they aren’t the perfect image of what you want them to be. I can’t imagine why this elitist tag has worked so well for them over the years and why Obama, his campaign and supporters have had such trouble winning the support of these voters, don’t they know Obama is going to fix them?



ME: The term is just as derogatory as labelling a gay man a fag or a black man a nigger, because by applying the term redneck your attaching the same kind discriminatory stereotypes to someone as the aforementioned words do.

ICO: Previously raised though poorly summarized, NickCole pointed out Chris Rock, who makes a distinction BETWEEN those two groups---one can be the former without being the latter.

Essentially your response was 'you can be a nigger without being black', which is connected to the point I was making how? I’m sure you’ll accuse me of using a straw man argument here (because that’s what you do when you have no other answer) but I really would be interested in knowing what relevance you think your reply actually had to my original statement.



More of your elitist high horse moralising.

Is it that hard for you to believe that people can be satisfied with their lives and not desperately want to ‘better themselves’ in your eyes? Clearly it is because so far in this thread you’ve responded to a sarcastic comment from me about how poor white people should be bettering themselves with the words ‘they should’ and have now seemingly described those are happy with their lives as ignorant. Your assertion is that no one should be happy or proud of who/what they are but should constantly be striving to fix who they are, because the poor choose to be poor and everyone should always choose to be wealthy, because it’s a choice we all make.



Please continue to try and put words in my mouth.

Obvioulsy when I said 'It’s almost hard to believe that the Republicans find it so easy to paint the Democrats as elitist…' what I actually meant was that Democrats are elitists and the Republicans are absolutely right to paint that picture of them.



This post could have been made about any group and my response would have been eerily similar. I’m not on a mission to defend the honour of rednecks, I’m pointing out that discrimination/bigotry is discrimination/bigotry regardless of who it is aimed at and in an election where everyone has been walking on eggshells around the issues of race and gender this thread is horribly hypocritical.

Basically when/if JUB uses offensive and bigoted stereotypes and views to attack the KKK or Neo-Nazi’s I’ll be happy to point out the hypocrisy of answering bigotry with bigotry. It is one thing to say that what they’re doing is wrong and another to say what they’re doing is wrong and follow it with racist and bigoted comments of your own.

Please ignore him guys. He gave you ample reason to ignore him in the bolded part above. He'll defend the honor of KKK and Nazis in the name of "bigotry".

 

[robertstar]

So is this what Jeff Foxworthy was doing when he used the word? Some of the white comedians who use the word are...*gasp* rich! Is the word only inclusive ethnically or does that apply to social status as well? If a black person can't say redneck, can a rich white person? Sorry for the confusion, I thought segregation had already ended.

Should I just repeat everything I already posted so you can read it? Maybe if I do that I’ll find the post where I said black people should never use the word redneck or where I praise Jeff Foxworthy, or maybe I won’t.

As far as "nigger," anyone with a smidgen of historical knowledge understands the difference between a pop culture term and a perjorative used while people were enslaved, hung, beaten, raped, etc... And faggot is a word lots of gay people apply to themselves and their friends.

Unless you’ve discovered some new definition for pop culture redneck doesn’t fit within it. And if you believe redneck does then so does nigger, which voids your argument.

Also nigger is a word that a lot of black people apply to themselves and others does that make it more acceptable for me to use it when describing you? I'm willing to bet that a few hundred people would climb onto their soap boxes if I did.

Do you realize how much of a hypocrite you are? You sound JUST AS BAD as black people who say "nigger" but get mad when white people say it. The people creating racial divide aren't just the ones using these words, it's also the ones who insist that there are color guidelines. I have german ancestry so does that allow me a "redneck" pass? At what point does the "caucasianness" have to enter your bloodline so you can use the word? Sorry, I don't have my "Dividing Terminology by Race" guide on me

Again you're trying to apply an argument that I’m not making.

At no point did I say that people should never use the word redneck my point is that if your going to argue discrimination on something like race (and you have) it is massively hypocritical to fire out some discrimination and bigotry of your own, particularly when said discrimination and bigotry focuses on race and class.

 

[robertstar]

Please ignore him guys. He gave you ample reason to ignore him in the bolded part above. He'll defend the honor of KKK and Nazis in the name of "bigotry".

Yes lets not let facts get in the way of a good time.

You are so ignorant of America it is laughable. There are poor whites who ARE NOT REDNECKS.

And you’re seriously trying to accuse me of making a straw man argument? I must have missed all these posts where I claim that every poor white person in America is a redneck. This latest twist in your argument just continues to further my point, you’re using the term redneck as a derogatory one and claiming that, that’s ok because it’s not as bad as using a word like nigger in a derogatory fashion.

Your equivocation is bringing you to the point of being a liar; when did 'discrimination' come into play? You're obviously obfuscating what is rather simple distinctions.

Do you know what discrimination is? Let me help you

Treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
- Link

So to answer your question discrimination came into this when redneck was used in a derogatory and insulting fashion.

And by the way, it is becoming far less subtle you have a thing against overweight people, because you keep falling back to that one.

I keep ‘falling back on it’ because it continues to illustrate the point I’m making and the massive inconsistency and lack of logic/common sense to the argument you’re making. You’re the one whole claimed discriminating against someone on the grounds of their religion or economic surroundings is more acceptable than discriminating against someone because they’re fat, because they can control the first two but not their weight. Do you not see how utterly ridiculous that argument is?

Obama isn't going to fix them. You're telling absurd mischaracterizations on purpose to prolong your endeavors: they can fix their own lives.

More elitist high horse moralising.

Does it not occur to you that their lives aren't broken and in need of fixing? Is it really so hard for you to accept that people, regardless of what you may think of their lives can be happy?

Considering that wasn't even a proper paraphrase of what I said. It's the distinction that "black and nigger" are not synonyms, just as "poor whites and redneck" are not. Simple logic at work there.

And you’re seriously trying to accuse me of making a straw man argument? I must have missed all these posts where I claim that every poor white person in America is a redneck. This latest twist in your argument just continues to further my point, you’re using the term redneck as a derogatory one and claiming that, that’s ok because it’s not as bad as using a word like nigger in a derogatory fashion.

Bettering oneself isn't a process that should end, and rednecks choose to not to do so.

And you've come to this conclusion how? Because you don't agree with how they live? This is why I used the elitist high horse moralising line.

That's a talking point from the Republicans and McCain, whom you go so far out of your way, by way of crossing the Atlantic, to defend.

It moves from being a talking point to a valid point when you make comments that poor white people should always want to better themselves and if they’re happy with who and where they are then they’re just ignorant.

And what you actually meant was very, extremely wrong.

Let me introduce you to my friend sarcasm, apparently you've never met.

Well it's not racist, and mocking lifestyles are common in the US---consider the verbal abuse regarding prostitutes, gays, etc.

It’s common? Oh in that case it must be ok.

Here's hoping you have something new to bring to this discussion...

Says the man who’s entire argument has pretty much hinged on

- You’re wrong
- You don’t understand
- Stop using straw man

I'm just sayin', if the word upsets you that much, Jeff Foxworthy makes millions off of that word. Shouldn't you be trying to get his DVDs and books pulled off the shelves? I'll be glad to join you in the fight if the term is that offensive. Want me to look up his management/publishing company/etc..?? I've still got some "Hell no! We won't go!" t-shirts, what size do you wear?

So you found all those posts where I said redneck was a horribly offensive word that should never be used by anyone ever?

Pop just means popular. There was "pop culture" in the Victorian age. Both words, redneck and nigger are pop culture terms. Both were popular enough to be deemed cultural. See? It's circular, just like this:

Flaw to your argument.

Something from Victorian popular culture for example no longer automatically qualifies as a pop culture reference or term now. To argue that redneck was born of popular culture (I'd argue that it wasn't) so remains popular culture is beyond flawed, pop culture dates and not always well.

I'm not "a lot of black people." I don't use that word to describe myself or anyone else so your argument that other people use it doesn't really apply to me. Go find a black person who does use the word and ask them how they feel.

And faggot is a word lots of gay people apply to themselves and their friends.

Care to rethink this argument yet?

 

[Shafted]

Redneck refers to a stereotype of usually rural, Caucasian (i.e. white) people of lower socio-economic status in the United States and Canada. Originally limited to the Appalachians, and later the South, the Ozarks, the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains, this stereotype is now widespread throughout North America. Southern comedian Jeff Foxworthy defines "redneck" as "a glorious lack of sophistication," stating "that we are all guilty of [it] at one time or another."
- Link

Redneck Informal: Often Disparaging.
–noun
1. an uneducated white farm laborer, esp. from the South.
2. a bigot or reactionary, esp. from the rural working class.
–adjective
3. Also, red-necked. narrow, prejudiced, or reactionary: a redneck attitude.

Redneck
n. Offensive Slang
1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.
2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

Redneck
noun
a poor White person in the southern United States

Redneck
A slang term, usually for a rural white southerner who is politically conservative, racist, and a religious fundamentalist (see fundamentalism). This term is generally considered offensive. It originated in reference to agricultural workers, alluding to how the back of a person's neck will be burned by the sun if he works long hours in the fields.

- Link (For All Above)

The argument that redneck is an ’acceptable cultural distinction’ gives way to a startling lack of knowledge of the word itself. The term is just as derogatory as labelling a gay man a fag or a black man a nigger, because by applying the term redneck your attaching the same kind discriminatory stereotypes to someone as the aforementioned words do. You’re using the word to belittle and mock - it’s pointing and laughing at the stupid poor white people who don’t know better, don’t they know they should be ’bettering’ themselves?

I don't think you're qualified to critique the underpinnings and context of American colloquialisms as they pertain to the ever-changing nature of cultural definition and acceptance, particularly in the South.

And not especially if you're using the dictionary to do it.

 

[Shafted]

Uh, I HATE Scrappy Doo!!

 

[NickCole]

I don't think you're qualified to critique the underpinnings and context of American colloquialisms as they pertain to the ever-changing nature of cultural definition and acceptance, particularly in the South.

And not especially if you're using the dictionary to do it.

Ah yes ... akin to "truthiness."

Commonly respected reference books sourced by your opponent are dismissed because you "know" the "truth."

Nonsense.

I've lived in the United States longer than most of you, in both urban and rural areas, North and South, East and West. I've heard lots of people use lots of words in lots of contexts, and "redneck" is a lot more than a pop culture word. It's a derogatory word of class distinction -- poor, uneducated "white trash."

 

[NickCole]

No, more like "the books don't tell the whole story." The word is often used in comedy.

So is "nigger"!

Does that mean "nigger" isn't used as a derogatory word when white people tell denigrating stereotype jokes about African Americans??

As far as I can tell, none of this hoopla started until a black person used it. How do you feel about Levi using the word to describe himself? Is he racist towards himself?

No more than an African American is racist towards himself when he uses the word "nigger." He "owns" it by using it about himself, taking a stand of defiant pride.

 

[Spensed]

I don't think you're qualified to critique the underpinnings and context of American colloquialisms as they pertain to the ever-changing nature of cultural definition and acceptance, particularly in the South.

And not especially if you're using the dictionary to do it.

I agree. Obviously, any word can be used or defined offensively.

But there's a world of difference between racial and anti-gay slurs and saying, for example, that too many Brits have bad teeth or that many Americans are too fat.

The key is meaning and intent. Some words come preloaded with hatred and bigotry. Others simply don't and depend on the user and the context.

Even this debate kinda shows that redneck falls into the latter category.

 

[NickCole]

I don't remember that word being called out while millions of people were beaten, lynched, raped, separated from their families, used as "product", etc... Historically, "redneck" and "nigger" are only similar in the sense that both are nouns and adjectives.

I don't buy that "my struggle has been worse than yours" stuff.

In fact that's one of the things in Palin's speech last night that turned me off, implying McCain's struggles as a POW somehow makes him superior to Obama or Biden. We all struggle along the way, including Obama and Biden, and survivors are due respect.

If a word is used in a way to diminish people, it doesn't matter whether it's "nigger" or "fag" or "redneck" or "kike" or "cunt." The point is diminishment and that it's hurtful to diminish each other, not whether or not everybody in the room is fully up to snuff on the details of history.

 

[robertstar]

Ah! There we go. Yeah, you equivocate. It's fallacious. It's fail. Moving on...

Are you aware of what the word equivocate actually means? I only ask because if I were equivocating as you claim I am then my statements would be vague and noncommittal so I could leave my options open on what exactly it is I’m saying or what I believe. Perhaps its just me but I’m not really seeing much in the way of vague or noncommittal statements made by me during this thread and certainly not in statements you quoted. However I’m of the mind that you don’t really believe I’m equivocating you just don’t want to actually deal with the issue(s) being raised so you’re spinning to try and avoid it. Or you don’t know what equivocate means.

Having said that I'm sure you'll pick another word out of the hat instead of actually responding to what's being said.

So how does 'redneck' or 'klansman' fit this category? And how is it then that the use of 'derogatory and insulting' arise when the person in question used it to describe himself?

Firstly I’ll need you to show me where I claimed it did fit with the word Klansman. My guess is that you’ll have a hard time finding that because it isn’t what I said.

Secondly I’ll answer your question by repeating myself (interestingly enough from the statement you quoted) discrimination came into this when redneck was used in a derogatory and insulting fashion.

Not in the least. What is to claim they can control their weight? Tsk, tsk, tsk... but I suppose you buy into a stereotype that all fat peole are fat BECAUSE they are gluttons or slobs.

Yes that’s exactly what I said and meant.

I mean my point couldn’t have been that you believe religious discrimination is less serious than discrimination against someone on the grounds of their weight. Nor could my point have had anything to do with you suggesting that people have more control over their economic surrounding than their weight. No, what I really meant was that all fat people deserve to be discriminated against.

You are attempting to defend people on conjecture now? I live with these 'rednecks', you don't. You aren't even in the same country. So you can babble on, like Nick as he types in one of his two Northeastern elite houses, but it is just noise. I know that there lives can be better, but they don't want them to be---never said that's not fine, but it doesn't come without criticism.

Actually you said they were ignorant for not wanting to improve their lives, which is at odds with the ‘never said that’s not fine’ line. So does the judgmental tone of claiming they should be bettering their lives and that their lives need fixing.

Except when you point out when I was being sarcastic earlier? Huh.

It is becoming increasingly clear that you aren’t actually reading what is being said but instead jumping to your own wild conclusions, since my guess is you’re referring to this comment

Is it that hard for you to believe that people can be satisfied with their lives and not desperately want to ‘better themselves’ in your eyes? Clearly it is because so far in this thread you’ve responded to a sarcastic comment from me about how poor white people should be bettering themselves with the words ‘they should’ and have now seemingly described those are happy with their lives as ignorant. Your assertion is that no one should be happy or proud of who/what they are but should constantly be striving to fix who they are, because the poor choose to be poor and everyone should always choose to be wealthy, because it’s a choice we all make.

Not in the least, but it's part of the American experience, about which you know nothing.

Oh look its more of the ‘you don’t know’ argument.

None the less your entire argument doesn’t add up here at all, because either it’s a completely pointless and irrelevant one or you’re suggesting that something being common means it’s all ok. I say this because you’re attempting to use the concept that discrimination is common and part of the American way to excuse it happening.

I don't think you're qualified to critique the underpinnings and context of American colloquialisms as they pertain to the ever-changing nature of cultural definition and acceptance, particularly in the South.

And not especially if you're using the dictionary to do it.

Yes because we’d hate to have the actual meanings of words applied to them and be reminded how horribly offensive we’re being when we use them.

It should however be pointed out that I'm not attempting to define American culture but instead pointing out that to discriminate against any group of people is wrong regardless of the group. You can’t moralise about racism and then participate in bigotry of your own and that’s what’s happened in this thread. Redneck can be offensive and was used in a derogatory and insulting manner in this thread and as I've said time and time again, discrimination is discrimination regardless of who's doing it and who its being done to.

No, more like "the books don't tell the whole story." The word is often used in comedy. As far as I can tell, none of this hoopla started until a black person used it. How do you feel about Levi using the word to describe himself? Is he racist towards himself?

Here’s a shocker, we’re back to your implied racism argument - you’re picking on me because I’m black, which isn’t even close to what’s happening. Perhaps you can suggest to me how it is I can argue the point that using the word redneck can be equally offensive as using the word nigger or fag before anyone has actually made a derogatory thread on the subject? Or maybe you think I should stalk every thread on the board searching for the use of the word redneck so I can make the point? I really don’t have the time or inclination to do that. You made the thread, I responded as hard as it might be for you to believe your race wasn't and isn't a factor.

I personally could care less how anyone describes themselves as there is a remarkably different context to how someone describes themselves and how others do it. Would I personally opt to describe myself as a redneck or fag or advise others to describe themselves in that way? No.

I don't remember that word being called out while millions of people were beaten, lynched, raped, separated from their families, used as "product", etc... Historically, "redneck" and "nigger" are only similar in the sense that both are nouns and adjectives.

Both are bigoted words used to discriminate and insult groups of people, ultimately it feels like you’re trying to invoke ‘white guilt’ rather than make a point. People aren’t arguing the historical significance of redneck or nigger, we’re pointing out that both are discriminatory and that discrimination shouldn’t be decided by who’s being discriminated against.

What people did I diminish? I'm only talkin' about one person. Levi Johnston. Are you having some flashback of a bunch of people beatin' you with two-by-fours and callin' you a "stinkin' redneck"?

So its ok to discriminate as long as you’re only doing it to one person? Does that mean I can pick any one person I like and be as bigoted to them as I can without problem?

It doesn't require the person in question to be poor, hence it is NOT a class distinction. Poor white Southerners can (and do) still make fun of rednecks.

Which makes no difference at all. The religions all mock each other so I guess discrimination based on religion doesn’t exist, right?

 

[Centexfarmer]

It doesn't require the person in question to be poor, hence it is NOT a class distinction. Poor white Southerners can (and do) still make fun of rednecks.

And I know a lot of rednecks who look down their noses at poor white Southerners.

Especially the "white trashy" ones.

 

[NickCole]

ICO7 -- It's not discrimination---redneck is not a class distinction.

Yes it is discrimination and yes it is a class distinction.

You insisting it is not does not make it so.

As linked to earlier in this thread, dictionary and encyclopedia and other reference source material indicate redneck is a class distinction, the stereotype referring to poor uneducated rural whites as in Appalachia and the South but now of course throughout the country -- the sort of people who, as Obama put it, are bitter and cling to guns and religion. That some rednecks have money doesn't change the derogatory reference any more than the fact that many blacks have money and power, are intelligent and beautiful and clean and educated and articulate, but "nigger" is still a derogatory and dismissive reference.

 

[Spensed]

The history of language is frequently one of:

- some people insisting that a word means what they see it as meaning; and

- others, who are content to point out usage without trying to control it.

Usage, almost always prevails.

And, like it or not, redneck is freely used in speech and print with nothing like the offensive impact to most people as the "N" word.

 

[NineOfClubs]

I don't buy that "my struggle has been worse than yours" stuff.

In fact that's one of the things in Palin's speech last night that turned me off, implying McCain's struggles as a POW somehow makes him superior to Obama or Biden. We all struggle along the way, including Obama and Biden, and survivors are due respect.

If a word is used in a way to diminish people, it doesn't matter whether it's "nigger" or "fag" or "redneck" or "kike" or "cunt." The point is diminishment and that it's hurtful to diminish each other, not whether or not everybody in the room is fully up to snuff on the details of history.

Yeah.....

It must have been terrible for Obama and Biden.

Maybe spending five and a half years locked up, and beaten, would have made it better for them.....

 

[NickCole]

The history of language is frequently one of:

- some people insisting that a word means what they see it as meaning; and

- others, who are content to point out usage without trying to control it.

Usage, almost always prevails.

And, like it or not, redneck is freely used in speech and print with nothing like the offensive impact to most people as the "N" word.

No that is not the history of language.

The history of language is that it evolves through popular usage and as it evolves those alterations are recorded in places like dictionaries and encyclopedias and various reference books that address etymology. In fact language sources have never been more up-to-the-minute accurate than they are today with the Internet and tools like Kindle and less expensive ways of publishing and distributing books.

Language is essentially a common agreement for the purpose of communication. The reason citizens of a society bow to commonly respected reference sources (like Webster's or the Oxford English Dictionary) is that if we all have different definitions of the same word we cannot communicate but if we all agree that X source is the definition we'll all use then we CAN communicate.

Making up the meaning of "redneck" makes communication about this subject impossible beyond quibbling over the definition of the word. As in other discussions here and elsewhere, the only sensible solution is agreeing that objective reference sources that can be linked will be regarded as valid. Some of the people arguing that dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of redneck aren't valid are the same people who like to insist "Link!" to back up claims made by opponents. Either linking to source material is valid or it is not -- you can't pick and choose when to respect it according to whether or not you like the results.

 

[NickCole]

Yeah.....

It must have been terrible for Obama and Biden.

Maybe spending five and a half years locked up, and beaten, would have made it better for them.....

I've gone through some difficult struggles -- because of my age and having come out in the mid-70s, an obvious one is losing 95% of my friends to AIDS when I was in my 20s and early 30s -- and I've seen other people go through a wide variety of difficult stuff, some of which I thought would be easier for me than it seemed to be for them and some I thought would be harder. But in the end, it seems to me, the point is how it feels to the person enduring it and what that person does with the experience. Does the person become embittered or empowered, vengeful or empathetic, self-destructive or determined to achieve, et cetera.

In a way, of course McCain's POW experience was worse than anything Obama or Biden have endured. But McCain doesn't know what it's like to be a black boy raised by white grandparents and attending predominantly white schools, or what it's like to lose a loved wife and baby daughter in a car crash. Bottom line: life can be very hard but it's not what happens to us that informs and identifies who we are, it's how we respond, our choices and decisions.