President Obama addresses the nation, declares war. . .

[xbuzzerx]

If we did not have to deal with that region of the world (oil) and if they just killed themselves I would hardly care. Let nature take its course.
The problem seems to be that we have to deal with them, they aren't happy just killing one another, and while they will work underground if we have a presence in the region, it's better than letting them run wild killing and torturing innocent people.

Only 12.9% of our oil comes from the Middle East. It is an important region, and important for having oil, but it's not as though the world goes dark tomorrow if the U.S. laid bids for oil from different places.

The reason we don't has far more to do with very powerful entrenched corporate and personal business relationships between powerful elites in the U.S. and powerful elites in the Middle East. Pics of people like Bush kissing Saudi royals weren't just photo ops. Those families and many other interests are all in bed together and have been for many decades for the purposes of making money.

 

[palbert]

And none of our Middle Eastern "friends" are falling over themselves to help out:

Arabs Give Tepid Support to U.S. Fight Against ISIS [New York Times]

 

[xbuzzerx]

And none of our Middle Eastern "friends" are falling over themselves to help out:

In fairness if they've been the ones running around with their hair on fire yelling for us to do something, it was drowned out by the much louder voice of Europe doing so.

 

[TX-Beau]

I do not understand why we have to do anything. Yes, bah blah blah world police. Let fucking Canada go in there, Germany? France? SAUDI ARABIA!

It's about time the Arabs put their own fucking armies in one of these "coalitions."

 

[xbuzzerx]

I do not understand why we have to do anything. Yes, bah blah blah world police. Let fucking Canada go in there, Germany? France? SAUDI ARABIA!

It's about time the Arabs put their own fucking armies in one of these "coalitions."

There was a really recent discussion about this, I believe in HT, where I was practically agog at how European posters were simply dictating how this is all our fault, our problem, our responsibility, and we need to put boots on the ground and do something about it.

I suppose it's easy to have really strong opinions about what should be done with foreign policy around the globe when it's a foregone conclusion that your country will not get involved with it, won't send off its young people into combat, and won't be paying the bill for the next few decades. Plus, any fallout of this intervention will also be our "fault", so...

 

[bankside]

I do not understand why we have to do anything. Yes, bah blah blah world police. Let fucking Canada go in there, Germany? France? SAUDI ARABIA!

It's about time the Arabs put their own fucking armies in one of these "coalitions."

And by the way, Canada sat out the Iraq war because it was an illegal fraud perpetrated by Bush Junior. I'd vote to take us into Syria just to have replaced Assad, never mind this ISIS crap. So the allies that might step up would be different now than then.

Apart from that I agree the US should not have to act alone; you aren't the world police, and Europe needs a federal army to deal with this kind of shit closer to its borders than ours.

 

[bankside]

There is another strategic interest at play beyond questions of conservation: the US is an important customer of middle eastern countries. That gives it regional influence that it would not have if everybody in the US had a solar panel on their rooves and China was buying all the oil from Saudi Arabia.

If only 13% of US oil is imported from the middle east as buzzer points out, then this is less about buying energy and more about buying influence and presence.

 

[xbuzzerx]

There is another strategic interest at play beyond questions of conservation: the US is an important customer of middle eastern countries. That gives it regional influence that it would not have if everybody in the US had a solar panel on their rooves and China was buying all the oil from Saudi Arabia.

If only 13% of US oil is imported from the middle east as buzzer points out, then this is less about buying energy and more about buying influence and presence.

I believe a good portion of it has to do with controlling what portion of the oil supply is available, at what price, to Russia and China, rather than the U.S.'s critical need for ME oil.

 

[bankside]

I believe a good portion of it has to do with controlling what portion of the oil supply is available, at what price, to Russia and China, rather than the U.S.'s critical need for ME oil.

Yes, I agree with this. I'd say more China than anything as Russia exports, but yes, I'm sure scenarios have been plotted and goals calibrated for that end.

 

[T-Rexx]

So... then you concede that a baby sitter is needed? They will behave if they are watched and face consequences for their actions.

No. I am arguing that a SOLUTION is needed.

Babysitting is taking care of people who are incapable of taking care of themselves. The people of the Middle East are quite capable of taking care of themselves. They choose violence because that is what works for them, not because they are incapable of peace.

It is always possible to impose the appearance of order through the use of overwhelming military force - as, for example, in Ferguson, Missouri. Doing so does not mean you have accomplished anything at all toward making the world a better place. The order imposed comes at the expense of the civil rights of the people involved. Martial law creates an illusion of normalcy. When the USA "babysits" the Middle East through the imposition of military force, the only babies being sat are us. We are the ones who cannot deal with the problems of the region, and who insist on pretending we have brought peace to a people who cannot live without us. We are treating ourselves, not them.

 

[peeonme]

No. I am arguing that a SOLUTION is needed.

Babysitting is taking care of people who are incapable of taking care of themselves. The people of the Middle East are quite capable of taking care of themselves. They choose violence because that is what works for them, not because they are incapable of peace.

It is always possible to impose the appearance of order through the use of overwhelming military force - as, for example, in Ferguson, Missouri. Doing so does not mean you have accomplished anything at all toward making the world a better place. The order imposed comes at the expense of the civil rights of the people involved. Martial law creates an illusion of normalcy. When the USA "babysits" the Middle East through the imposition of military force, the only babies being sat are us. We are the ones who cannot deal with the problems of the region, and who insist on pretending we have brought peace to a people who cannot live without us. We are treating ourselves, not them.

That's what works for them, this says it all, and if they decapitate a few Americans along the way, oh well...

 

[mightbe]

A great place to start would be to stop adding fuel to the fire.

 

[T-Rexx]

That's what works for them, this says it all, and if they decapitate a few Americans along the way, oh well...

The only reason they would decapitate us would be because we are interfering in their affairs, isn't it?

Apologies for misinterpreting.

What solution do you think is the right one?

I have no idea.

As a general rule, people who are happy with their lives are not so inclined to try to make others miserable. And what generally makes people happy is a sense of fairness in life. Happiness does not come from wealth, but from hope. There are plenty of abjectly poor people on earth who are nevertheless happy with their lives.

It's not very easy to offer hope to people who feel abused and disenfranchised. That's probably why it hasn't happened in the Middle East for the last few thousand years. But I think the nations of the world would do better to try to offer the people of the Middle East hope than to kill them in the name of peace.

 

[peeonme]

The only reason they would decapitate us would be because we are interfering in their affairs, isn't it?

These nations who bitch about how we interfere in their affairs remind me of those who come to me and want help(cash) but if I offer advise with the cash I am interfering, trying to live their lives, yada, yada, yada.

The world loves the USA when a tsunami , earthquake, plague , invasion, famine etc. strikes them, they will accept the aid of the infidels.
When the trouble is over radical groups claim that their god wants them and has told them to kill us, they are not easy to get along with.

 

[xbuzzerx]

These nations who bitch about how we interfere in their affairs remind me of those who come to me and want help(cash) but if I offer advise with the cash I am interfering, trying to live their lives, yada, yada, yada.

The world loves the USA when a tsunami , earthquake, plague , invasion, famine etc. strikes them, they will accept the aid of the infidels.
When the trouble is over radical groups claim that their god wants them and has told them to kill us, they are not easy to get along with.

I think you are lazily lumping the whole rest of the world into one monolithic group. I have no idea what would possess you to think that places like Syria or Afghanistan are simply biting the hand that feeds them. The only country we "feed" every kind of aid to in the region is Israel, and they're the ones who told us to back off and don't tell them what to do.

The idea that these places "owe us" because of aid we gave to Southeast Asia during tsunamis or similar is just mind-boggling.

 

[palbert]

All Administration spokespeople are touting a - all caps - WAR against ISIS. From the looks of it not many countries outside of the EU are jumping on the bandwagon; in any event there is a noticeable absence of enthusiasm. I have a feeling Obama has put his foot in his mouth once again.

 

[frankfrank]

There are a number of different interpretations of what's going on over there, leading to a number of different "valid" responses depending on one's assumptions.

And...EVERY response or non-response, of whatever nature, is a terrible, horrible answer. There is NO approach that isn't catastrophic.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

 

[peeonme]

I think you are lazily lumping the whole rest of the world into one monolithic group. I have no idea what would possess you to think that places like Syria or Afghanistan are simply biting the hand that feeds them. The only country we "feed" every kind of aid to in the region is Israel, and they're the ones who told us to back off and don't tell them what to do.

The idea that these places "owe us" because of aid we gave to Southeast Asia during tsunamis or similar is just mind-boggling.

And right you are, I am just using the same lazy logic to lump all together as the enemy that those who kill innocent Americans use,
Did any of the 3000 who died on 9/11 interfere in the affairs of the mid-east?
Do only the terrorists have the right to lazily lump every one together?

 

[xbuzzerx]

I am just using the same lazy logic to lump all together as the enemy that those who kill innocent Americans use,

9/11 also occurred due to decades of U.S. intervention for its own expediency.

I suppose you think the somewhere in the neighborhood of a million Iraqis who died as a result of our invasion had all personally harmed Americans in some way? Get real.

 

[peeonme]

9/11 also occurred due to decades of U.S. intervention for its own expediency.

I suppose you think the somewhere in the neighborhood of a million Iraqis who died as a result of our invasion had all personally harmed Americans in some way? Get real.

If you want to justify 9/11 in any way shape or form then you are in the minority. I was against the invasion of Iraq, it was a blunder
and the Bush boys did all that they could to mislead our nation with propaganda to justify it, that war was not comparable to 9/11, they knew that we were coming, where we were from, our men wore uniforms, we did not hi jack airliners and use them on civilian targets.

9/11 was perpetrated by cowards, their leaders hi jacked a religion to recruit punks who were angry, they did not wear a uniform but rather acted as low lives and attacked civilians, if you think that anything that our nation has done could justify what these snakes did
then we have nothing to discuss.