Proposition 8 Has Officially Passed

[Centexfarmer]

I'm insane with the asinine arguments used in the defense of Prop 8 and, just like here in Texas back in 2006, having "Christian Values" shoved down my throat.

And who's the Queer that decided "marriage" should define "civil unions" as a matter of "state constitutional record" I want to slap that bitch too!

No one in America can legally get "married" without the consent of the State!

Every "marriage" is a CIVIL UNION recognized within the County/State in which the "license" is granted.

"Sacred Institutions" like "churches" may have the "authority vested" within the "Power of God," but the legal equalities are granted by THE STATE.

To have any Church sway the public opinion toward state discrimination is an outrage, and an affront to the founding principles of our country.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm insane with the asinine arguments used in the defense of Prop 8 and, just like here in Texas back in 2006, having "Christian Values" shoved down my throat.

And who's the Queer that decided "marriage" should define "civil unions" as a matter of "state constitutional record" I want to slap that bitch too!

No one in America can legally get "married" without the consent of the State!

Every "marriage" is a CIVIL UNION recognized within the County/State in which the "license" is granted.

"Sacred Institutions" like "churches" may have the "authority vested" within the "Power of God," but the legal equalities are granted by THE STATE.

To have any Church sway the public opinion toward state discrimination is an outrage, and an affront to the founding principles of our country.

If a measure got started for leaving "marriage" to the private sector and having the government do nothing but "civil unions", I'd love to be there when someone tried to shove "Christian values" shoved down your throat.


Christian-dude: <blah blah blah blah> Christian values.

Kul: Oh -- Christian values -- kool! You mean, like God established the ruling authority, right?

C-dude: Um, well, yeah.

Kul: Right on! That means the Constitution here, doesn't it? I mean, we don't have a "Caesar", we have a Constitution that God gave us!

C-dude: Sure, yeah.

Kul: You know the First Amendment, right?

C-dude: freedom of speech, and stuff....

Kul: Right. And, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof". That's part of what God established for America!

C-dude: Um...

Kul: So, the law can't establish any religion at all, or even any part of a religion -- it can't make everyone follow a certain religious belief. See?

C-dude: Well, but they were Christians, so--

Kul: They were Christians, and they wrote that, and they knew Christianity is a religion, so they were saying Congress can't establish it, either!

C-dude: <blank look>

Kul: So, according to what God established for America, arguing about "Christian values" isn't supposed to happen in a campaign. It doesn't belong in the law. What belongs in the law is what the Declaration of Independence says, that "all are created equal". That's all this measure is asking, isn't it -- some people want to be equal, like God said! So you could say they're doing God's will!

C-dude: <blank stare>

 

[Kulindahr]

No one in America can legally get "married" without the consent of the State!

Of course, that's unconstitutional on the face of it.

 

[Centexfarmer]

If a measure got started for leaving "marriage" to the private sector and having the government do nothing but "civil unions", I'd love to be there when someone tried to shove "Christian values" shoved down your throat.


Christian-dude: <blah blah blah blah> Christian values.

Kul: Oh -- Christian values -- kool! You mean, like God established the ruling authority, right?

C-dude: Um, well, yeah.

Kul: Right on! That means the Constitution here, doesn't it? I mean, we don't have a "Caesar", we have a Constitution that God gave us!

C-dude: Sure, yeah.

Kul: You know the First Amendment, right?

C-dude: freedom of speech, and stuff....

Kul: Right. And, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof". That's part of what God established for America!

C-dude: Um...

Kul: So, the law can't establish any religion at all, or even any part of a religion -- it can't make everyone follow a certain religious belief. See?

C-dude: Well, but they were Christians, so--

Kul: They were Christians, and they wrote that, and they knew Christianity is a religion, so they were saying Congress can't establish it, either!

C-dude: <blank look>

Kul: So, according to what God established for America, arguing about "Christian values" isn't supposed to happen in a campaign. It doesn't belong in the law. What belongs in the law is what the Declaration of Independence says, that "all are created equal". That's all this measure is asking, isn't it -- some people want to be equal, like God said! So you could say they're doing God's will!

C-dude: <blank stare>

As an American who doesn't embrace any of the teachings of the Church of England, or any of the related teachings as a "faith," it's not right to codify someone's interpretation of those teachings to make me a second class citizen.

Equal protections, taxation without representation, etc.

Oh, but the founding fathers were Christians, and we're a Christian Country.

Anyone who believes that knows nothing about American History, or some of the debates that took place during the Constitutional Convention of the mid to late 1780's.

 

[bluepheonix]

Just history repeating itself in a sense isn't it? End of world war two, with the liberation of concentration camps, the supposedly 'enlightened' new governments thought it would actually be best to keep those homosexuals behind bars. Because oppression is wrong you see.

 

[NickCole]

This guy, who has produced so many Pro Obama Videos, and criticizing racism and people not voting Obama on the basis of race, produced a scathing commentary against Blacks and Hispanics in California that voted for Proposition 8.

I totally understand his frustration.

Blacks want Equality, and us Gays helped them achieve a milestone on Tuesday. And yet, these two groups threw Gays under the bus on Tuesday.

That's because gays let them do it.

It's totally the fault of gays who supported Obama without insisting he support our rights when we needed it and he needed us.

Gays have no power with Obama or the DNC now. They don't need us to get elected because they're in office. And we don't have "oppression" on our side; they don't see our not having marriage rights as oppression, something to fight for because it's just.

The only way to get elected officials like Obama to fight for us is when there's something in it for them because it's always risky and why take the risk if they've nothing to gain for themselves.

African Americans went to vote in record numbers because of Obama, he could have said gays are supporting me and helping me get elected, we need their support so we have to support them, stand with them and defeat Prop 8, do it for me, do it for them because they're helping to make this happen, do it for us. But gays didn't force him to and so he didn't have to take that risk. He got the gay vote without having to give us anything in return. It's 100% the fault of gays - if you don't use the power you have when you have it then it disappears and you have nobody blame but yourself.

 

[BlondeCanadian]

sometimes you have to make the right decisison without a personal motivation.... We do not need campaign promises directed at us to know that that is the way we should vote for the good of the country......

It sounds like those stupid campaign tax cuts designed to draw in the selfish and stupid...If you vote for me i will lower taxes /cheers

 

[MystikWizard]

That's because gays let them do it.

It's totally the fault of gays who supported Obama without insisting he support our rights when we needed it and he needed us.

Gays have no power with Obama or the DNC now. They don't need us to get elected because they're in office. And we don't have "oppression" on our side; they don't see our not having marriage rights as oppression, something to fight for because it's just.

The only way to get elected officials like Obama to fight for us is when there's something in it for them because it's always risky and why take the risk if they've nothing to gain for themselves.

African Americans went to vote in record numbers because of Obama, he could have said gays are supporting me and helping me get elected, we need their support so we have to support them, stand with them and defeat Prop 8, do it for me, do it for them because they're helping to make this happen, do it for us. But gays didn't force him to and so he didn't have to take that risk. He got the gay vote without having to give us anything in return. It's 100% the fault of gays - if you don't use the power you have when you have it then it disappears and you have nobody blame but yourself.

Has nothing to do with Obama. This was an individual state issue that was solely in our hands.

Obama could get up there and preach Gay Rights all he wants ... which he actually did not support a ban on Gay Marriage to begin with, and I know he opposed this Proposition ... but once Blacks and Latinos get in the voting booth, that choice is really up to them. Obama can't twist their arm to vote "No on Prop 8". Their religious convictions were responsible for what happened.

We'll see if this gets struck down.

 

[White Eagle]

It looks like Calif gays are not going to let this Prop 8 get by. Here is a link to Courage Campaign to sign a pledge to restore equality to the Calif Constitution. I'm sure it will help with the more of us to sign it. I did.

http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/repealprop8

Fight the religious right: Repeal Prop 8 and restore marriage equality to California
Sign the pledge to build the Marriage Equality Movement

 

[MystikWizard]

It looks like Calif gays are not going to let this Prop 8 get by. Here is a link to Courage Campaign to sign a pledge to restore equality to the Calif Constitution. I'm sure it will help with the more of us to sign it. I did.

Unfortunately, online petitions don't amount to a damn thing.

We'll let the courts decide this.

 

[White Eagle]

However you want. If you don't want to sign it don't and you might just let others speak for themselves. I just think some solidarity with the Calif gays would mean a lot to them. I am putting the email I got from courage campaign at the end of this. I said in another thread that Marriage was not for me, but I will stand by those who do want it.
Who knows, it just may be another Stonewall, except without the arrests.

Here's the email.

"Anti-family rioting."

That is how the religious extremists behind Prop 8 are characterizing the protests that have spread across California in the aftermath of Tuesday's passage of the ballot measure that eliminated the right of same-sex couples to marry.

I was at the heart of one of these amazing marches in Los Angeles on Wednesday night. And it was anything but "anti-family rioting."

It was history in the making -- thousands of passionate Americans spontaneously speaking out against enshrining discrimination into the California state constitution.

We are witnessing the birth of a new Marriage Equality Movement -- the civil rights movement of the 21st Century. Organized from the bottom-up by thousands of ordinary people just like you in the last 48 hours, this people-powered phenomenon is exponentially growing by the minute, online and offline.

You are at ground zero in this movement. And we need to take it to the next level -- a new initiative campaign to repeal Prop 8 and restore marriage equality to California. Please pledge your support now to repeal Prop 8 -- then forward this message to your friends:

http://www.couragecampaign.org/RepealProp8

California had the chance to do what no other state has done and uphold equality for all. Instead, a slim majority decided to strip fundamental human rights from a minority. As Jonathan Stein writes at Mother Jones:

"The decision violates, violently, the image of my state that I have held with such pride my entire life. California is a wonderful place for a lot of reasons, but foremost among them is the way in which it welcomes people."

Movements are visceral and popular, often borne of outrage and anger. What we are witnessing on the streets and online is a community of people who have come together to say: "These are our lives. This is our time. This is unacceptable."

This is our moment to stand strong together -- gay and straight -- and say that we refuse to accept a California that enshrines bigotry into our state constitution. Please pledge your support now to repeal Prop 8 and restore marriage equality to California -- then forward this message to your friends:

http://www.couragecampaign.org/RepealProp8

Thank you for mobilizing your friends to fight the religious right and restore marriage equality to California.

Rick Jacobs
Chair

P.S. My friends Zach Shepard and Geoffrey Murry helped spark Wednesday and Thursday night's marches in Los Angeles, activating their social networks via email and Facebook. These two young lawyers have never led a protest in their lives, but they decided to take matters into their own hands, along with thousands of other concerned citizens shocked at the passage of Prop 8.

Like Zach and Geoffrey, you can help build California's new Marriage Equality Movement today by taking action in your own community. Will you start by pledging your support to repeal Prop 8 and then forward this message to your friends?

http://www.couragecampaign.org/RepealProp8

..............

The Courage Campaign Issues Committee is part of the Courage Campaign's online organizing network that empowers over 100,000 grassroots and netroots activists to bring progressive change to California.

 

[Kulindahr]

As an American who doesn't embrace any of the teachings of the Church of England, or any of the related teachings as a "faith," it's not right to codify someone's interpretation of those teachings to make me a second class citizen.

Equal protections, taxation without representation, etc.

Oh, but the founding fathers were Christians, and we're a Christian Country.

Anyone who believes that knows nothing about American History, or some of the debates that took place during the Constitutional Convention of the mid to late 1780's.

I love that claim, because when put the way you just did there, it's a contradiction.

Assume the founding fathers were all Christians. Now, they're the ones who gave us a Constitution requiring freedom of religion. We know from Jefferson's writings that this included "Mohammetans", who are definitely not Christians.

This was written down in the supreme authority established by God for the country, i.e. the Constitution.

Ergo, the Christians who founded the country knew that it was God's will that this not be a Christian country, and that's why they wrote what they did.

Plainly, then, since all can agree that the definition of legal mating we currently have in the law is the Christian one, the only conclusion is that it ought not be there.

Q.E.D.

 

[NickCole]

Has nothing to do with Obama. This was an individual state issue that was solely in our hands.

Obama could get up there and preach Gay Rights all he wants ... which he actually did not support a ban on Gay Marriage to begin with, and I know he opposed this Proposition ... but once Blacks and Latinos get in the voting booth, that choice is really up to them. Obama can't twist their arm to vote "No on Prop 8".

He could have tried, and would have if the gay community supporting him had insisted on it. We can't know if his support would have impacted the vote, but it couldn't have hurt and at least the new President of the United States would be firmly aligned with gay rights. Now he isn't. He whispered that he's for gay rights but gays never forced him to stand up at a microphone and say it strong. I bet most straight African Americans don't even know he's pro gay rights -- or if they've heard it, don't believe he really means it or really cares.

And as I said, it's a power thing. He knows he has the gay vote without having to give us anything. Gays can temper tantrum all they want, Obama doesn't hear it now and he won't hear it. And neither will the DNC. Gays stupidly gave up political clout when they had a prime opportunity to fortify it.

Their religious convictions were responsible for what happened.

Rubbish.

If they hold religious conviction so dear why does the black community accept their ridiculously high level of out of wedlock children? It isn't religious conviction, that's just a convenient "nice" excuse for plain old fashioned prejudice and discrimination.

Prop 8 passing, as well as Amendment 2 in Florida BTW, is not Obama's fault -- he was just doing what he's been doing all along and will continue to do, what's good for his personal ambition. And it's not the African American community's fault -- they were just following through with what we all knew they believed, because the one person who could have swayed them to rethink their vote didn't say a peep. It was up to gays to insist on his support, it's the fault of every gay Obama supporter who didn't say we'll support you but you support us right now.

 

[Spensed]

To repeat, Obama had already indicated his opposition to Prop 8 and repeated it in his pre-election MTV interview, which was picked up by a number of news sources.

To do more than he did would have risked providing the Republicans nationwide with the gay wedge issue and talking points that would have dominated Fox News and everywhere else in the closing weeks of the campaign. which permitted no margin for error.

Also there is no evidence that Obama's higher profile intervention would have changed anything.

Gays will live to fight another day on Prop 8, but the higher priority was making sure that the country didn't get four or eight more years of George Bush and a generation of anti-gay Supreme Court nominees.

And thankfully that higher priority was achieved.

 

[MystikWizard]

To repeat, Obama had already indicated his opposition to Prop 8 and repeated it in his pre-election MTV interview, which was picked up by a number of news sources.

To do more than he did would have risked providing the Republicans nationwide with the gay wedge issue and talking points that would have dominated Fox News and everywhere else in the closing weeks of the campaign. which permitted no margin for error.

Also there is no evidence that Obama's higher profile intervention would have changed anything.

Gays will live to fight another day on Prop 8, but the higher priority was making sure that the country didn't get four or eight more years of George Bush and a generation of anti-gay Supreme Court nominees.

And thankfully that higher priority was achieved.

I have to agree with your sentiments. The priority was getting Obama elected. If he would have done what Nick suggested, than the Republicans would have used that issue against him, and Obama would have risked the same thing happening to him in the General Election, that did to Proposition 8 in California. Many evangelicals were actually supporting Obama this time, despite the Abortion Issue, which was extremely difficult for many of them to overcome. But this may have been too much for them, and would have cost Obama their support. It wasn't worth it.

Then, Nick would have blamed Obama's loss all on Obama, and said "see, I told you he wasn't the stronger candidate." So that is why you can't take him seriously.

What happened with Proposition 8 happened, and will be dealt with in the courts. However, the priority was getting Obama elected, and avoiding another 4 years of Republican Presidency. If I had to do it all over again and put this issue on the back burner for sakes of winning the election, then I would gladly do it over.

 

[Spensed]

^ The same kind of brain dead moron who thought that the federal government might have something to say on racial civil rights and discrimination.

It's one thing for Obama not to give the bigots a stick to beat him with during an election. But he did run on pro-gay policies and it's perfectly reasonable to expect him to add his support to the fight against Prop 8 at the appropriate time. Even as a candidate, Obama indicated his opposition to Prop 8 on at least two separate occasions.

He's already going to support gay rights in the longer term by not appointing anti-gay judges to the Supreme Court.

 

[NickCole]

I have to agree with your sentiments. The priority was getting Obama elected. If he would have done what Nick suggested, than the Republicans would have used that issue against him, and Obama would have risked the same thing happening to him in the General Election, that did to Proposition 8 in California. Many evangelicals were actually supporting Obama this time, despite the Abortion Issue, which was extremely difficult for many of them to overcome. But this may have been too much for them, and would have cost Obama their support. It wasn't worth it.

Then, Nick would have blamed Obama's loss all on Obama, and said "see, I told you he wasn't the stronger candidate." So that is why you can't take him seriously.

There's no evidence that taking a stand against discrimination, Prop 8, is any more risky with the evangelical crowd than taking a stand for a woman's right to have an abortion.

As for what I would have done, that's your fantasy. It isn't true simply because you need it to be true to bolster your position.


This is just shirking responsibility: "Blacks want Equality, and us Gays helped them achieve a milestone on Tuesday. And yet, these two groups threw Gays under the bus on Tuesday."

Blacks did not throw gays under the bus. Gays threw themselves under the bus on the off-chance that insisting he stand against Prop 8 might harm his chances to win. Blacks did not gain civil rights by waiting for whites in power to give it to them, they got it when they finally insisted whites in power take the risk of supporting their cause in exchange for blacks giving them political support. That's the way it's done.

If you don't mind waiting for your rights, if you think putting Obama in the WH is more important than gay rights, that's your choice. But take responsibility for it. It's not the responsibility of African Americans or anybody else to give gays rights; it's our responsibility to insist on them when we have the power to do so. If you relinquish that power when you have it, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

[Spensed]

^ What makes you think that responsibility can't be shared or that different people can't be responsible for different factors in the ultimate result?

The previous posts accept full responsibility for prioritizing Obama's election ahead of defeating Prop 8, if that's how you want to look at it.

I still think that Obama making a high profile of a gay wedge issue would have been used to drive religious crazies to the polls against him as it was in places like Ohio in the last Presidential election.

Also common sense suggests that Fox News would have seized on the topic as they repeatedly tried to do with ACORN, Ayres, Kalidi, etc. and fanned the flames throughout the final news cycles.

And who know whether Obama involving himself in Prop 8 would have made any more difference than Hillary telling you to support Obama did.

But, all of that doesn't change the fact that reportedly around three quaters of black voters on Prop 8 voted for it and it follows that they are responsible for doing so and for their part in Prop 8 succeeding.

 

[NickCole]

^
But, all of that doesn't change the fact that reportedly around three quaters of black voters on Prop 8 voted for it and it follows that they are responsible for doing so and for their part in Prop 8 succeeding.

Of course they're responsible for their votes, and for what they believe, which led to how they voted. But nobody changes their vote or beliefs without having a reason to do so. On this issue that's our responsibility to deal with. Gays had a prime opportunity with Obama having said he opposed Prop 8, being a black candidate attracting a huge black constituency to the voting booth, and knowing blacks planned to vote in support of Prop 8. They were so eager to get Obama elected, they were more open than probably they ever will be to listen to a candidate like Obama and follow his lead. Opportunity doesn't get more direct than that! And gays pissed it away. Take responsibility for it. It's not the fault of blacks who merely voted the way they believed, it's the fault of gays who didn't grab the chance to force Obama to influence those beliefs and those votes.

 

[aijalon18]

Demonizing black people and Obama is just stupid. There was nothing more Obama could do. He has been more inclusive to gays than any other straight presidential nominee. How many times has he referred gays and lesbians as our brothers and sisters? No one else has done that.

If there is anyone to be mad at, it is the largely white Mormons who got this shit started. Republicans who voted 86% against it. It is also the failure of gay leaders who didnt do enough to get their message out enough. Many gay leaders refused to even attempt to court black churches because they just assumed they'd be against them.