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"Proud to be an American" / RS' "The Kill Team"

Let's see. We train the military to kill people and break things. Then we get upset when they do it? I watched the videos. One involved shooting a couple of armed motorcyclists. Other than wasting a lot of ammo, what was the problem there? Another involved a couple of Talibanners planting an IED. They were machine gunned into a fine mist. Good for our guys! The problem was it was filmed and passed around. Give me a fucking break! Although the sound track wouldn't have been my first choice.

Maybe instead of bashing the grunts who are doing what we want them to do, maybe we need to figure out what the fuck we are doing in Afganistan. If we can't clearly define our goals and objectives, then it's time to leave.

As to Rolling Stone being any kind of objective source of information, you have to be kidding me, right?
 
No one is advocating that killing innocent civilians is acceptable. The Rolling Stone article focused more on the fact that there were videos made and pictures taken. While we find those things to be distasteful, it is and has been something that soldiers have done as long as the media to do so has existed. How do you suppose we have such extensive film records of much of WWII and Viet Nam?

The articles you cited center more on the criminal acts perpetrated by a rogue group. Certainly, they deserve punishment. However, it is quite unfair to use a broad brush, as the OP has done, to paint the entire armed forces as murderous thugs, I'm sure you would agree.
 
Last week, a military judge in a court martial proceeding sentenced Jeremy Morlock, a 22-year-old army specialist, to 24 years in prison after pleading guilty to murdering innocent civilians in Afghanistan. He was the first soldier to be held responsible for the crimes. In addition to the five soldiers accused of murder, seven others have been accused of lesser crimes including desecrating dead bodies and obstructing the investigation.
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-- from this article

Twenty-four years? For multiple murders, plus other offenses? When in the states a guy can get thirty years for having a few pictures of minors naked?

If it was twenty-four at hard labor, I might buy it. This is lenient.
 
Telstra said:
Not saying all the service members but history(Vietnam !!!!) tells us otherwise.
And the proofs are the videos from Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Vietnam is a poor comparison; the military personnel on the ground there were draftees who didn't want to be in the Army, definitely didn't want to be in Vietnam, and were basically lost in a kind of combat the Army wasn't really ready for. That situation qualifies as mental and emotional abuse by the government.

The vids from Iraq do qualify. And military psychologists have been warning that in an extended conflict like this, such things are going to happen. The warnings, of course, were ignored.

Corny said:
I agree that there will always be some inhuman assholes in a big mass. But what is most uncomfortable about this incident is that one of the "kill team" members, who was more or less bullied to be a part of the team, alarmed his father about the murders very early.
His father phoned multiple high ranking army people and talked on their mailboxes - none of them got back to him. His father called the home-base of his son and finally got to talk to an officer there for 30+ mins. The officer promised to get back to him - yet nothing happened.
THIS could have been stopped early on. But when multiple people in the high positions, people who are supposed to prevent stuff like that turn a blind eye and protect murderers like those - are you sure that those are just the mislead deeds of a few?
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That 'team member' should get off lightly; he participated only out of fear for his own life. But that sort of intimidation should bring a seven-year sentence all by itself.
 
Telstra said:
the 3rd link,
playing with the dead is fun for the soldiers?
I guess they saw so many dead such that they don't fear dead faces anymore.
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I don't know about that specific picture, but I do know that people who are exposed to horrible situations deal with them in what seems to be inappropriate ways as a coping mechanism to preserve their sanity. Dehumanizing the "enemy" relieves them of what would otherwise be crushing guilt. Conversely, there are also sociopaths that enjoy this kind of thing. You can square up the first type of soldier. Not the second. There is nothing to fear from the dead. It's the living we have to worry about.
 
^ those guys killed innocents and staged ambushes to cover up their tracks.

they blew up hostile grenades (that they got from other missions) near their patrol path and then shot down civilians. after they were done taking their pictures they placed some weapons between the corpses, to be found by anybody who checked upon their story.

apparently the squad leader said they weren't getting enough "action" there ..
 
^ Which brings us all the way back to what are we doing there? It's time leave.
 
Lostlover said:
This is what we know of.

Also, led me add the DC Sniper, John Allan Muhammad, who went on a rampage terrorizing the DC area.
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Still a fraction of 1% of the population, by using this to judge the entire community you are setting a standard that measured against any community on Earth would qualify them as mass murderers. I'm sorry but you proving nothing except that you are willing to slander the 99.9% of good servicemen and women who serve their country honorably to support a radical left wing stereotype. Why not point to Jeffery Dahmer and the tiny percentage of murderers who also happen to be homosexuals and say that homosexuals tend to be sadistic killers? I know there are enough radical right wing groups who will happily provide you with stories and statistics to support that sick stereotype and they would be just as valid as the one being promoted here.
 
jackoroe said:
Let's see. We train the military to kill people and break things. Then we get upset when they do it? I watched the videos. One involved shooting a couple of armed motorcyclists. Other than wasting a lot of ammo, what was the problem there? Another involved a couple of Talibanners planting an IED. They were machine gunned into a fine mist. Good for our guys! The problem was it was filmed and passed around. Give me a fucking break! Although the sound track wouldn't have been my first choice.

Maybe instead of bashing the grunts who are doing what we want them to do, maybe we need to figure out what the fuck we are doing in Afganistan. If we can't clearly define our goals and objectives, then it's time to leave.

As to Rolling Stone being any kind of objective source of information, you have to be kidding me, right?
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything about the losers planting the IEDs. They got what they deserve.

I did complain about shooting two men, armed or unarmed, on their motorcycles in their own country. I thought soldiers are only supposed to shoot when a gun is aimed at them?
 
Stardreamer said:
Still a fraction of 1% of the population, by using this to judge the entire community you are setting a standard that measured against any community on Earth would qualify them as mass murderers. I'm sorry but you proving nothing except that you are willing to slander the 99.9% of good servicemen and women who serve their country honorably to support a radical left wing stereotype. Why not point to Jeffery Dahmer and the tiny percentage of murderers who also happen to be homosexuals and say that homosexuals tend to be sadistic killers? I know there are enough radical right wing groups who will happily provide you with stories and statistics to support that sick stereotype and they would be just as valid as the one being promoted here.
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Absolutely.

LL's 'reasoning' is the same thing the haters do when they equate gays to pedophiles.
 
Kulindahr said:
Absolutely.

LL's 'reasoning' is the same thing the haters do when they equate gays to pedophiles.
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So what do you think should be done? Continue going from scandal to scandal (more like massacre to massacre) without acting on it? Continue enlisting the bottom of the barrel type of people into our armed forces?

Connect the dots dude. There's a stench coming from the military and acting like it isn't there serves no one's purpose.
 
Stardreamer said:
Still a fraction of 1% of the population, by using this to judge the entire community you are setting a standard that measured against any community on Earth would qualify them as mass murderers. I'm sorry but you proving nothing except that you are willing to slander the 99.9% of good servicemen and women who serve their country honorably to support a radical left wing stereotype. Why not point to Jeffery Dahmer and the tiny percentage of murderers who also happen to be homosexuals and say that homosexuals tend to be sadistic killers? I know there are enough radical right wing groups who will happily provide you with stories and statistics to support that sick stereotype and they would be just as valid as the one being promoted here.
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Because Dahmer isn't murdering in my name. Dahmer didn't have the gay rainbow flag on him when he murdered those men. Dahmer doesn't represent me. Every soldier that goes overseas puts on a US military uniform with our flag on it.

I don't so nonchalantly brush off someone representing my country who kills innocent civilians in another country.
 
Lostlover said:
Because Dahmer isn't murdering in my name. Dahmer didn't have the gay rainbow flag on him when he murdered those men. Dahmer doesn't represent me. Every soldier that goes overseas puts on a US military uniform with our flag on it.

I don't so nonchalantly brush off someone representing my country who kills innocent civilians in another country.
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I don't brush it off, I think these individuals are scum and deserve to everything the law can throw at them. Nor am I denying that there are bad apples that can emerge in any group, particularly when subjected to the stresses of war. But that is not a call to slander the professionalism of the vast majority of US Service People who are serving honorably.
 
Lostlover said:
So what do you think should be done? Continue going from scandal to scandal (more like massacre to massacre) without acting on it? Continue enlisting the bottom of the barrel type of people into our armed forces?

Connect the dots dude. There's a stench coming from the military and acting like it isn't there serves no one's purpose.
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Into drama, aren't you?

Generally, one scandal has died down before another strikes -- that's hardly "from scandal to scandal."

But we don't shut something down because it has a minuscule error rate -- not even the Japanese' vaunted factories ever got 100% up to standard. What you do is hang murderers, and set the rest to hard labor.

And if they had records that shouldn't have allowed them in, you go back to the recruiters and have some words.

And as I said before, the investigators should be people with no interest in covering anything up -- someone with your attitude might be a bit much; the ideal would be someone who lives up to all the old standards of honor, and despises anyone who departs from them.


A "stench"? Well, if you hunt around and find the right place to stick your nose.



BTW, I'll add here something I've said before: any illegal immigrants who can learn English well enough should be given the option of serving like six years in the military, and be a citizen afterward. We could have another hundred thousand troops to work with, and the National Guard could go back to being what it's supposed to be.
So long as they had no records, immigrants are often better material for loyalty to country than long-time residents.
 
Kulindahr said:
BTW, I'll add here something I've said before: any illegal immigrants who can learn English well enough should be given the option of serving like six years in the military, and be a citizen afterward. We could have another hundred thousand troops to work with, and the National Guard could go back to being what it's supposed to be.
So long as they had no records, immigrants are often better material for loyalty to country than long-time residents.
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I've always been for this idea, if we need a path to citizenship I can't think of a better way to show your desire to become a US citizen.
 
Stardreamer said:
I've always been for this idea, if we need a path to citizenship I can't think of a better way to show your desire to become a US citizen.
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Get a graduate degree and ask to stay, would be another way. Right now we're chasing thousands of brilliant people out who want to stay, because of inflexible policy. Anyone who shows up at the border with $50k or more or a graduate degree or any scientific or technical skills should be granted residency, and don't count it against the quotas.
 
Kulindahr said:
Get a graduate degree and ask to stay, would be another way. Right now we're chasing thousands of brilliant people out who want to stay, because of inflexible policy. Anyone who shows up at the border with $50k or more or a graduate degree or any scientific or technical skills should be granted residency, and don't count it against the quotas.
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A friend of a friend has a PhD in electronic engineering, from the time when degrees from SA universities meant something, with lots of life savings so he could make a good start in another country, but the rigid policies you speak of kept him out of the United States so now he works in Abu Dabhi, where his skill are so valued now that the Sheikh personally offered him citizenship. Guess its the America's loss.

Lostlover said:
[Quoted post: Removed by Moderator]
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[Text: Removed by Moderator]
 
Hmmmm, I come back to the site to see reason has prevailed over irrational and emotional thoughts.
 
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