Relationship of Age and Other Factors to Voting Patterns [SPLIT]

[Lostlover]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

What a load of bullshit that is.

People had much more than that as Obama stole the caucuses,and his supporters cried racism,and you were leading the band,reminding us to vote ''bro's before ho's.''

Give me a cookie.

I didn't want to vote for Obama,and I wish I didn't. He's a lying sack of shit,and he threw the gay voters under the bus.He's not alone though, the Democratic Party has done it for years and they'll never get another vote,or another dime from me.You can still swoon over him, and I'm sure you will,but I'm about over him and his bullshit.

Anybody catch his remarks in California the other day? While commenting on a gay protestors sign that read ''keep your promises''he joked ''what promises?'' There's your Obama.

But back on topic, you can wag your finger all you want at ''the old people'' but as Kuli pointed out, they voted!

Now, young people may think gay marriage is a nifty idea, but it don't mean shit if they don't get off they're asses and head to the polls when it's being put to a vote.

Just like the 'Obama Girl', a lot of young voters were too busy to make it to the polls.

Who threw gay people under the bus? Did you not see the voting patterns?

Obama can't make laws. And he's in his 5th month and has 43 more to go before election.

You guys will say anything.

PS: I skipped over some posts. I'm pressed for time now but will answer all posts.

 

[Lostlover]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

I'm pointing out to you that the world is a bit more complicated. Fact is, waiting for generations of people to die to affect change is nihilistic and utterly passive.

I struggle with this topic because I look at people and I do not see statistical amalgams -- I see human beings, I see individuals. It has been my experience that changing minds and attitudes is a retail affair, not wholesale (Billy Clinton used to say, "One touch, one vote," and he knew a little something about winning elections).

We cannot choose, really, the society or times we live in -- that's not part of the deal. We live in the here and now. And we don't live life in the abstractions of statistical data sheets, we live it person by person, experience by experience. The most liberal person I know is 94; the most conservative is my little bitch neice, who is 19 (and who is the ONLY fucking Republican in my family -- she recently came out as such).

If you want to wage jihad against people who are older than you based on statistics, honey, knock yourself out. For myself, each encounter with every individual is an opportunity to change them, and to be changed by them. That is what interaction does, that is how cities, culture and society work. That is why I hope to live to 94: I don't want to be "the same person" I am today, and I invite and welcome every opportunity to be a new person every single day.

I'm not waging war on anyone. I have just noted that as a group, I don't like what I see.

And I'm not blanketing a whole group. I am aware of older folks that are New England or San Francisco type liberals like my English teacher in high school who you just know as a Jewish woman is sensitive to any kind of discrimination. (She deliberately chose to have us read lesbian authors in Black History month, something she went out of her way to do.)

This contrasts greatly with my grandmother who is in her 60's too who doesn't even acknowledge gays. She has code words for usm like "sweet" and "syrupy".

My English teacher truly is in the minority.

Which is why certain gay activist groups are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to get courts and judges to overturn the will of the people.

I also remember Mr. Richardson, another high school teacher I had, telling us about going to a segregated school. SEGREGATED. And he was so nonchalant about it all. That ain't normal practices Mr. Richardson.

He's freakin' alive in the new millennium and he's telling us about segregation. That sounded like something ages ago.

Then I see what some call activist judges overturning voting in order to advance gay equality. Do you want judges advancing gay equality or do you want a more tolerant society?

 

[MrWright]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

PS: How could I make blanket statements when I cite data that clearly shows not all of one group voted one way or another?

Things like (and I've read this many times): "It's the old peoples fault," which dramatically downplays the complexity of voting into a simple claim against a minority. It's a scapegoat with no better intentions than racially charged blame tactics...

To site a percentile problem is fine but to say that the 'old group' is all to blame isn't because it fails to realize that it's not the entire group (far from actually as 33% of anything is still a large percentage...even if our ingrained 'anything less than 50% means nothing' society fails to realize it - case in point if you had a 33% chance of dying during surgery you'd be a bit more careful). As another poster pointed out, there's also lack of support amongst Latinos...are we going to call them monsters now?

 

[andysayshi]

^ So, what you're saying is, rather than rallying together to achieve gay marriage rights now, you're satisfied to wait 10-20 years for another generation to stop voting.

It seems like a slow way to get what you want.

 

[andysayshi]

I am most definitely a gay activist, but I take a certain measure of satisfaction that natural death has a role in advancing our rights.

Thankfully, people like Martin Luther King, like Harvey Milk, like the suffragettes, like the Stonewall rioters, like Rosa Parks, relied on more than time to get things done.

 

[Lostlover]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

Things like (and I've read this many times): "It's the old peoples fault," which dramatically downplays the complexity of voting into a simple claim against a minority. It's a scapegoat with no better intentions than racially charged blame tactics...

To site a percentile problem is fine but to say that the 'old group' is all to blame isn't because it fails to realize that it's not the entire group (far from actually as 33% of anything is still a large percentage...even if our ingrained 'anything less than 50% means nothing' society fails to realize it - case in point if you had a 33% chance of dying during surgery you'd be a bit more careful). As another poster pointed out, there's also lack of support amongst Latinos...are we going to call them monsters now?

And as a group it is.

A group can vote a certain way, but you can't call them out by name.

As a group they vote in bigotry, but if you call them out on it --> you're the bigot.

Not in my world.

Your whole post rests on the idea that with me noting a demographic pattern, that somehow makes ME the bigot and the people voting in the bigotry are angels.

Again, not in my world.

Like I said to Kuli when he was catching feelings early on, the point where you go talking about diction, preciseness, tenor, tone -- you have no argument. I called him on it early and let it rest until he caught feelings again in that thread before this.

 

[Lostlover]

Very kind of you to say.

As to the posters you reference, well, some people like to build their own prisons. I don't know why some people do that. I mean, isn't a primary purpose of life to attain a higher level of humanity and greater sense of personal liberation?



Really? Selective reading on your part, melded with a certain in 'then 'tha tivity are the only reasons you could believe that. I think your fellow posters are more shocked, not hurt, at your propensity to wish that people of a certain age would simply up and die. Such passive yet anti-social sentiments typically make reasonable people of goodwill shake their heads and say, "Wow!" Clearly you don't see that, but I see it.

How kindly would you treat people that don't believe you're an equal?

 

[Lostlover]

I hope everyone is enjoying themselves this evening. Cheers

It's not a flame war. There's a lotta hurt feelings but rest assured it ain't a war between a gun (demographic data) and a water pistol (hurt feelings).

 

[MrWright]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

And as a group it is.

A group can vote a certain way, but you can't call them out by name.

As a group they vote in bigotry, but if you call them out on it --> you're the bigot.

Not in my world.

Your whole post rests on the idea that with me noting a demographic pattern, that somehow makes ME the bigot and the people voting in the bigotry are angels.

Again, not in my world.

Like I said to Kuli when he was catching feelings early on, the point where you go talking about diction, preciseness, tenor, tone -- you have no argument. I called him on it early and let it rest until he caught feelings again in that thread before this.

You know Jews have a lot of money and those Black people...why don't they get out of gangs? And f**k what's up with Latinos and not being educated and speaking English? All those women voted for shrillary...

My don't I sound like a bigot when I say it that way....hmmm.

Yet there are BITS of truth to some of the statements: the average Jewish person's annual mean wage is a bit higher than the annual mean non-Jewish wage and there are higher rates in some parts of the nation of Black people involved with gang violence. A good number of Latinos do not speak English and yes...many women did indeed vote for Hillary.

It's your inability to see that the many doesn't mean the all that reeks of bigotry. It's when you stop viewing the people as individuals with each distinctly different ideas and begin to perceive them as just clumps that you remove the humanity from them. It's not US and THEM it's you and millions of other people totally different than you. We agree on gay marriage but there are MANY things I guarantee we disagree on and yet I would be an 'us' in this case....not really.

 

[andysayshi]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

You know Jews have a lot of money and those Black people...why don't they get out of gangs? And f**k what's up with Latinos and not being educated and speaking English? All those women voted for shrillary...

My don't I sound like a bigot when I say it that way....hmmm.

Yet there are BITS of truth to some of the statements: the average Jewish person's annual mean wage is a bit higher than the annual mean non-Jewish wage and there are higher rates in some parts of the nation of Black people involved with gang violence. A good number of Latinos do not speak English and yes...many women did indeed vote for Hillary.

It's your inability to see that the many doesn't mean the all that reeks of bigotry. It's when you stop viewing the people as individuals with each distinctly different ideas and begin to perceive them as just clumps that you remove the humanity from them. It's not US and THEM it's you and millions of other people totally different than you. We agree on gay marriage but there are MANY things I guarantee we disagree on and yet I would be an 'us' in this case....not really.

Very well said!

 

[Lostlover]

Re: Obama Nominates Judge Sonia Sotomayor For S.C.O.T.U.S.

You know Jews have a lot of money and those Black people...why don't they get out of gangs? And f**k what's up with Latinos and not being educated and speaking English? All those women voted for shrillary...

My don't I sound like a bigot when I say it that way....hmmm.

Yet there are BITS of truth to some of the statements: the average Jewish person's annual mean wage is a bit higher than the annual mean non-Jewish wage and there are higher rates in some parts of the nation of Black people involved with gang violence. A good number of Latinos do not speak English and yes...many women did indeed vote for Hillary.

It's your inability to see that the many doesn't mean the all that reeks of bigotry. It's when you stop viewing the people as individuals with each distinctly different ideas and begin to perceive them as just clumps that you remove the humanity from them. It's not US and THEM it's you and millions of other people totally different than you. We agree on gay marriage but there are MANY things I guarantee we disagree on and yet I would be an 'us' in this case....not really.

You analogy doesn't work. You know why? As a group, blacks aren't in gangs (most aren't in gangs). As a group, Latinos speak English in America (less than 50% speak Spanish solely).

You're talking about statistical minorities. I'm talking about majorities.

Let's say for example 51% of Russian Americans adults over 30 have their PhD's. Would I be incorrect if I said Russian Americans are an educated group compared to other racial groups if that's what the numbers showed?

Of course not. Don't be silly.

This reminds me of what Jesse Ventura said on Fox News about Nancy Pelosi "lying" about knowing the CIA waterboarded. Ventura said, "would Nancy be lying if we never waterboarded in the first place?".

Would this thread existed if the bigotry wasn't there in first place?

You're doing exactly what Fox News is doing. There's no issue (waterboarding/bigotry in voting) yet you want to question someone over it (Pelosi/me).

 

[NickCole]

And utterly passive, too. And I wonder how the generations coming BEHIND them will view their "elders," what with the circle of life being what it is and always has been? Will these yet-to-be born kids see their "elders" as passive and as a generation of ghoulish death-watchers? One should be very careful in the karma they radiate, dontchaknow.

It'll be interesting when you finally wake up.

This is a generation that is totally in love with passivity.

Nobody is more potently seductive to them than the power bottom.

And that's Barack Obama. A power bottom who, ironically, is uncomfortable with change.

And that's all the more interesting, considering the 2008 Change! mantra, because Dubya Bush reveled in change.

 

[NickCole]

Ah, interesting thoughts.

Could you, for sake of clarity and so that I might more fully understand your thinkng, describe what a "power bottom" is?

A person who is passive in nature and style, and yet maintains the position of power and control in relationships.

When I hear the term, I think of an angry queen screaming "FUCK THAT ASS," of course meaning fuck their ass.

Ah, vintage porn memories.

But I'm talking about something else.

Being an exclusive top, I love bottoms (they are the most seductive, powerful force in the universe to me); but angry "power bottoms?" They just scream a lot.

A power bottom doesn't normally scream a lot; if they're good at what they do, they get and maintain their power through seduction, manipulation, deception, but not screaming. Screaming would damage their power because their power lies in the appeal of their passivity. They try to maintain a "no drama" image, though underneath the facade is lots of secret drama.

 

[NickCole]

Isn't that more a description of a passive-aggressive?

Maybe some power bottoms are passive-aggressive, or end up passive-aggressive, but I think it's different.

With power bottoms it's about the power, that's what they're after. And the power bottoms I've known make themselves desirable and pleasing to be around, the kind of people others want to protect and defend when they make mistakes or behave badly, even when they don't deserve it; whereas I think of passive-aggressives as ultimately annoying and uncharming people that others tend to want to avoid after a while.

 

[NickCole]

And yours is one totally in love with bigotry.

Even steven.

Actually I think one is worse.

Yeah the generation that fought for civil rights and women's rights and gay rights is in love with bigotry.

 

[NickCole]

You still don't get it do you?? Your generation doesn't support gay rights,

From what it was like when we started we've done a hell of a lot more for gay rights than your generation has done.

[Inappropriate text: Removed by Moderator]

most notably an overwhelming majority don't support our right to marry. It's a minority of boomers who really make change possible.

As I've already pointed out, in the DBR survey above more voters in the age range younger than Boomers voted yes than Boomers did.

 

[NickCole]

I am doing something [Inappropriate text: Removed by Moderator]. Hundreds of people have listened to me explain inequality I couldn't hope to put a number on it it's so overwhelming for one person to have had that conversation with so many. Unless you have a webcam and mic on me 24/7 you wouldn't know otherwise would you? Then don't make the fucking link unless you know me, that's right.. you don't!

I know you well enough, and I know activists.

Activists work for change, they don't say they're waiting for old people to die so they can get what they want. That's a passive notion, not an activist one.

 

[NickCole]

And as you so conveniently omit, a majority of them vote otherwise.

Not according to the DBR survey in this thread.

 

[NickCole]

When you say "we" you don't mean people over 50. You mean a sliver of activists who happen to be over 50. For the actions of a few, you don't get to credit the whole generation, because the actions of a few don't represent the whole generation good or bad. I credit my generation as being supportive of gay marriage, as a whole, and chastise them at the same time for not taking enough action.

You continue to repeat this nonsense without any support for it.

Let's see your evidence that only a "sliver" of the Baby Boomer generation supported/supports equal rights. Link to something credible that supports this ridiculous assertion.

 

[NickCole]

Please. Please provide some evidence that the sky is blue. I'm not outside i cant see!




I've owned up to the fact that most guys my age are apathetic. You seem to not be able to own up to the fact that a majority of people your age don't support gay marriage. If it's insulting to you, trying to deny it isn't going to make things better, but admitting it dropping it will so we can just move on.

I'm not responsible for my generation, I'm responsible for me; I wouldn't feel at all personally insulted if baby boomers vote one way or the other. I'm interested in the truth.

You say only a sliver support gay rights while in this very thread there's the DBR poll showing that 53% voted against Prop 8. 53% is not a sliver.