Rufus Wainwright Slams Beyonce's Music

[jusluv]

STEAMPUNK...buddy... there is nothing you can tell me about art or the arts that I don't already know, believe me when I tell you that. Thats why I can say with all confidence that your views on "true artistry" is one dimensional. An artist (and even a person who truly understands art) knows how to respect another artists work. Even if you don't like it, you dont call it crap.

You say you haven't lowered your standards and you don't settle for second best...Yet a couple sentences later you say: "I've listened to Beyonce. I Jam out to her music all the time. It's fun, bombastic and dance-worthy." Hummmm?? Now does that make any sense when you say her music isn't "good" (whatever good is to you). Who wants to indulge in something that lowers your standards... I know I don't... but obviously you do. And when I want to have fun and dance I don't listen to what I feel is crap...but you do. So Im very aware of my value systems, it's you who it seems is a little confused.

Oh yeah...my buddy...R&B is not only Jazz it's also Blues, Rock, Gospel etc. Ella, Duke, and Count Basie Were Not the original creators of R&B music because they never considered themselves R&B artists. Now contributors they were because they helped create Jazz music which is influnced in R&B. *Remember when you first mentioned their names you said CREATORS and the second time you mentioned their names you said CONTRIBUTORS, those are two different words with two different meanings* and just for the record Beyonce has never said she was the first to do R&B, she's just the #1 R&B artists out now. Music is constantly changing and evolving and everyone who creates music effects their particular genre in bringing someting fresh and new. Thats why music back in 1960 doesn't sound like the music of 2007. You can't say an artist of Beyonces' magnitude has not effected R&B, thats of course unless you don't know R&B (which I doubt you do STEAMPUNK...my friend)

And just so you know...Pop Music is not one parrticular genre of music Pop music consists of (as of right now): Rock, Pop, Jazz, Hip Hop, Dance, Reggae, Electronic, and even Folk music. It's a grouping of whats "Hot" at a particular time. And the Jackson 5 has and always will be R&B.

Good Day Buddy

 

[lawrence358]

Wow 6 pages Beyonce must be the shit lol

 

[steampunk]

STEAMPUNK...buddy... there is nothing you can tell me about art or the arts that I don't already know, believe me when I tell you that. Thats why I can say with all confidence that your views on "true artistry" is one dimensional.

One dimensional? Did you read any of what I typed? Here, I'll copy and paste it again so you can be sure to read it through:

"Art is about quality. It's about producing something that creates a sort of event at which awareness of both subject and object is made possible. The union of a medium and its message are judged solely by their apparent harmony. And everyone gets it. They just can't explain why. It's all about quality, my friend." (10 Cool Points if you can guess who wrote that (besides me)).

and

"Art is not purely subjective."

An artist (and even a person who truly understands art) knows how to respect another artists work. Even if you don't like it, you dont call it crap.

I couldn't agree more for reasons I'll explain further down.

You say you haven't lowered your standards and you don't settle for second best...Yet a couple sentences later you say: "I've listened to Beyonce. I Jam out to her music all the time. It's fun, bombastic and dance-worthy." Hummmm?? Now does that make any sense when you say her music isn't "good" (whatever good is to you). Who wants to indulge in something that lowers your standards... I know I don't... but obviously you do. And when I want to have fun and dance I don't listen to what I feel is crap...but you do. So Im very aware of my value systems, it's you who it seems is a little confused.

No, it actually makes perfect sense. You can enjoy someone's music without actually claming that it's good. I enjoy a lot of music that couldn't be considered Art. Just because something is good or bad doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it. This is what I've been trying to get you to understand. Quality can be quantified. You can QUANTIFY what makes "good art" and "bad art". What you like or dislike about something has nothing to do with your correct thinking. The act of listening to bad music isn't what lowers your standards. Claiming that bad music is art DOES.

Oh yeah...my buddy...R&B is not only Jazz it's also Blues, Rock, Gospel etc. Ella, Duke, and Count Basie Were Not the original creators of R&B music because they never considered themselves R&B artists. Now contributors they were because they helped create Jazz music which is influnced in R&B. *Remember when you first mentioned their names you said CREATORS and the second time you mentioned their names you said CONTRIBUTORS, those are two different words with two different meanings* and just for the record Beyonce has never said she was the first to do R&B, she's just the #1 R&B artists out now. Music is constantly changing and evolving and everyone who creates music effects their particular genre in bringing someting fresh and new. Thats why music back in 1960 doesn't sound like the music of 2007. You can't say an artist of Beyonces' magnitude has not effected R&B, thats of course unless you don't know R&B (which I doubt you do STEAMPUNK...my friend)

I never said that Ella and Duke and Count Basie created R&B. If you go back and look closely at what I typed, here is what you'll find: "Beyonce hasn't created anything new. She's riding the coat-tails of the great artists who came before her". That was in response to what you said: "Beyonce has created a sound, a brand, and a name that NO ONE else has. (and if anybody denies that... you are lying to yourself)." I hope that clears things up.

All of the greatest innovators that have left a lasting impression upon society BORROWED from and built upon what had already been discovered by their predecessors. Without Einstein there would be no quantum mechanics. Without Newton there would be no Einsteinian theory of special and general relativity. Without Copernicus there would be no Newtonian physics. Without Ptolemy there would be no copernicus and so on and so forth. Brilliant men do not just pop up out of the ground fully formed with their special brand of genius in tow, ready to change the world. Beyonce belongs to a generation of entertainers who unfortunately lack the talent to take their borrowed vision and contribute something new to it. You may not see this now, but in a decade or so you'll look back and wonder where music went and why the popular entertainers of our time didn't leave a lasting impression upon the world. At least not as lasting as their predecessors. Trust me, it'll happen.

And just so you know...Pop Music is not one parrticular genre of music Pop music consists of (as of right now): Rock, Pop, Jazz, Hip Hop, Dance, Reggae, Electronic, and even Folk music. It's a grouping of whats "Hot" at a particular time. And the Jackson 5 has and always will be R&B.

Pop Music is definitely one genre. But it's a genre that consists of every single popular music entertainer according to a particular culture. The Jackson 5 was/is definitely Pop.

I said earlier that Beyonce has drawn from Pop because it's true. And your failed attempt to define Pop Music didn't prove me wrong. I'm actually getting tired of schooling you, so don't be surprised if I don't respond to your next unthoughtful response.

Good Day Buddy

Yeah k.

 

[jusluv]

No my responses are very thoughtful it's you who has no clue of what you are talking about, and frankly I would rather you not respond. Because your excuses on why you enjoy music thats you feel is crap and has no meaning is not only confusing but dumb. And i'm falling out of my chair laughing at you because you are attempting to make your opinion that "Beyonces' music is not art" a fact and it does not work like that. Art is Expression period-point blank. And you can go all around the world and back with it but when it's all said and done it's Expression. And anyone who Sings a song, writes a book, paints a picture, plays an instrument etc. are expressing themselves. And whether someone "gets it" or not its still an art form.

As for your very obvious ignorence of Musical Genres, you can look in any book and on any legit website it will tell you that Popular Music is a collection genres that are appealing for a particular era or period of time. LOOK IT UP!!! It's definitely NOT one genre .(Oh yeah, while you're at it look up the Jackson 5, I promise you it will say they were an R&B, Soul, Funk, and Disco Band. Which were all considered POPULAR MUSIC at the time) You are talking to someone who studies music and knows a little bit more than think. So STEAMPUNK you don't have to "school" me on anything, if anything i'll be schooling you my friend.

And just know that only a closed minded individual would think that something as prescious as quality could be quantified, because your numbers would never match with everyone. What you you feel is quality I might not feel the same way. Haven't we made that evident in our posts?? So does that make a person wrong because they don't match with you??

Once again Good Day!!

 

[steampunk]

No my responses are very thoughtful it's you who has no clue of what you are talking about, and frankly I would rather you not respond. Because your excuses on why you enjoy music thats you feel is crap and has no meaning is not only confusing but dumb. And i'm falling out of my chair laughing at you because you are attempting to make your opinion that "Beyonces' music is not art" a fact and it does not work like that. Art is Expression period-point blank. And you can go all around the world and back with it but when it's all said and done it's Expression. And anyone who Sings a song, writes a book, paints a picture, plays an instrument etc. are expressing themselves. And whether someone "gets it" or not its still an art form.

As for your very obvious ignorence of Musical Genres, you can look in any book and on any legit website it will tell you that Popular Music is a collection genres that are appealing for a particular era or period of time. LOOK IT UP!!! It's definitely NOT one genre .(Oh yeah, while you're at it look up the Jackson 5, I promise you it will say they were an R&B, Soul, Funk, and Disco Band. Which were all considered POPULAR MUSIC at the time) You are talking to someone who studies music and knows a little bit more than think. So STEAMPUNK you don't have to "school" me on anything, if anything i'll be schooling you my friend.

And just know that only a closed minded individual would think that something as prescious as quality could be quantified, because your numbers would never match with everyone. What you you feel is quality I might not feel the same way. Haven't we made that evident in our posts?? So does that make a person wrong because they don't match with you??

Once again Good Day!!

You've managed to avoid the argument completely. Congratulations.

I'd just like to point out your contradiction:
(Oh yeah, while you're at it look up the Jackson 5, I promise you it will say they were an R&B, Soul, Funk, and Disco Band. Which were all considered POPULAR MUSIC at the time)

So they were all of those things AND they were Pop Music. Nice. Care to NOT prove me wrong some more?

And i'm falling out of my chair laughing at you because you are attempting to make your opinion that "Beyonces' music is not art" a fact and it does not work like that. Art is Expression period-point blank.

What if someone's art is the art of Non-expression? What then? You're trying to fit Art into a box, which as most educated people can tell you is the worst way to define it.

And just know that only a closed minded individual would think that something as prescious as quality could be quantified

HAHAhAHaAHAHaAH Oh man, that's good. Your misunderstanding of quality is as humorous as your frequent misspellings.

 

[steampunk]

I just wanted to repost what Rufus said:

I’m really sick of Beyonce. All of her songs are formulaic and produced in a way that’s utterly mesmerizing in the basest way. There’s no enlightenment. Like most mainstream pop these days, it’s more of a scientific experiment than an artistic experience. But hey, it’s your life, you know?"

Now there's a smart man.

 

[Colbertianity]

I'd like to request that this thread be moved or destroyed. It has morphed into a bunch of queens bitching about each other and biting each other's heads off with ridiculously over quoted posts. This thread is taking up valuable space in the forum, where it is always on the front page. It's not even about a guy, y'all are just bitchin' about Beyonce.

 

[jusluv]

Whatever man. You're not even intelligent enough to comprehend simple things like Musical genres (and also not intelligent enough to look it up because if you did you would see i'm 100% correct.) . And you dissecting my every sentence (and word- hence you finding my 'frequent misspellings') makes me very aware that you're about the confrontation and not the facts. I can go all day with you but as of now i'm choosing not to because simply: I don't feel you're smart enough. Anyone who says EXPRESSION is a type of conformity is absolutely senseless, expression is the most liberating thing on this earth. And like I made very clear before, I'm very educated in the matter (anyone educated in the Arts would see you're obviously not) and I will tell you Expression is one of the best ways to describe Art.

Just say that you don't like Beyonces' Music, but don't feel like you have the power or the audacity to lable someones music as crap. No my friend that's your opinion. Or are you not ingenious enough to see that??

For the Last Time Good Day

 

[steampunk]

Whatever man. You're not even intelligent enough to comprehend simple things like Musical genres (and also not intelligent enough to look it up because if you did you would see i'm 100% correct.) . And you dissecting my every sentence (and word- hence you finding my 'frequent misspellings') makes me very aware that you're about the confrontation and not the facts. I can go all day with you but as of now i'm choosing not to because simply: I don't feel you're smart enough. Anyone who says EXPRESSION is a type of conformity is absolutely senseless, expression is the most liberating thing on this earth. And like I made very clear before, I'm very educated in the matter (anyone educated in the Arts would see you're obviously not) and I will tell you Expression is one of the best ways to describe Art.

Just say that you don't like Beyonces' Music, but don't feel like you have the power or the audacity to lable someones music as crap. No my friend that's your opinion. Or are you not ingenious enough to see that??

For the Last Time Good Day

I don't actually have to look anything up to know that you contradicted yourself several times on the issue of genres. You said "oh Pop encompasses every genre that is popular, but The Jackson 5 isn't Pop, they're R&B." I admitted that you got it half right, but also half wrong if you take into account that Pop is actually considered (by definition) a genre of music that consists of the popular mainstream titles of other genres. You also took much of what I said out of context or just plain put words in my mouth. Take some time to cool down and read over our conversation and you'll see.

I'm actually quite intelligent. But I don't have to prove that to you. In fact, those types of non sequitur character attacks are what lead me to believe that you aren't prepared for this conversation. Maybe I expect too much from JUB. I should find a debate forum.

Later gator

 

[Colbertianity]

music is not called Beyonce's music. It is called hip hop. It shows how stupid and ignorant people can be racist bitches

Well, here on JUB, that's right....especially in this thread.....dunno if you know this, but I HATE THIS DAMN THREAD!!!!! JESUS CHRIST---CAN'T WE TALK ABOUT GUYS??? And NOT Rufus---He barely classifies as a guy. Let the bitching begin.

 

[elra]

Aaah, I just realized what forum this was in. My bad.

Well, here on JUB, that's right....especially in this thread.....dunno if you know this, but I HATE THIS DAMN THREAD!!!!! JESUS CHRIST---CAN'T WE TALK ABOUT GUYS??? And NOT Rufus---He barely classifies as a guy. Let the bitching begin.

 

[Apollo]

Beyonce first album sold 40 million only 10 million away from michael jackson's thriller. These people who are hatting on Beyonce are old guys who like british music. They are old fashoined. They are probably racist.

well i am black. not racist. and i do love British music, and Rufus Wainwright. He makes good music. A solid body of work, including a really good cover of Across the Universe, and Hallelujah.

Beyonce has catchy songs, but nothing to look back on and be truely proud of. (but you never know). Michael Jackson has that. He can look back and be happy about his body of work. Beyonce's best stuff was the stuff she recorded with Destiny's Child, IMO. Even though I didn't listen to much of Destiny's Child either/