Seddique Mateen, what do you think about him?

[Mariatenebre]

And you know the fuck what, WE are better than THEM, because that's the American way and that has fuck all to do with religion. If that was not the American way, you and I would be dead at the hands of Christian Taliban, so any of us calling for intolerance has stabbed us all in the back.

I didn't say we should take his rights away. However to pretend like he is just some innocent with a son who just so happened to do something atrocious is false. He is a basically a non violent extremist. That being said I do agree with you on the foolishness of saying that Christianity paved the way for secularism when Christianity fought against secularism since it's inception and still does. Secularism came about due to the enlightenment and people separating religion from government. While it is true that many of these thinkers had Christian ideas they were still for separation of church and state but the religious powers that be still fought against losing their powers in government. Pretty much all of the Abrahamic religions have fought for total dominion over state and religion. So no I am not saying that his rights should be taken away. What I am saying is that his toxic ideas inherited from Islam paved the way for his son's radicalism.

 

[frankfrank]

Here, I looked it up for you...

Just as interesting, is to see that homosex isn't ILLEGAL in Indonesia...home of the largest national Islamic population of any cuntry in the world.

Not sure that this really means anything...it just is what it is.

 

[TX-Beau]

I didn't say we should take his rights away. However to pretend like he is just some innocent with a son who just so happened to do something atrocious is false. He is a basically a non violent extremist. That being said I do agree with you on the foolishness of saying that Christianity paved the way for secularism when Christianity fought against secularism since it's inception and still does. Secularism came about due to the enlightenment and people separating religion from government. While it is true that many of these thinkers had Christian ideas they were still for separation of church and state but the religious powers that be still fought against losing their powers in government. Pretty much all of the Abrahamic religions have fought for total dominion over state and religion. So no I am not saying that his rights should be taken away. What I am saying is that his toxic ideas inherited from Islam paved the way for his son's radicalism.

Whatever kind of extremist you say he is, you are saying he should have less rights with every insinuation that he is somehow other, and responsible for things he didn't do because of religion.

I agree with you that religion is poison in a government, and I agree that Islam has a long, long way to go, but it's also true that the majority of Muslims aren't even Arabs and could give a fuck about ISIS, aren't bombing anyone and aren't interested it trying to force you into the chador.

In the end, the bald truth of it is, that what I am doing is defending my own rights, against the people in this country who agree with you about Arabs, who will fuck you right over as soon as they are done with them.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Just as interesting, is to see that homosex isn't ILLEGAL in Indonesia...home of the largest national Islamic population of any cuntry in the world.

Not sure that this really means anything...it just is what it is.

Actually many police use public indecency laws against gay people in Indonesia and in Aceh province homosexuality is punished by lashes. Also Indonesia has blasphemy laws, Atheism is illegal and you can not legally apostatize from Islam in Indonesia. So for those Liberals who call Indonesia a "moderate Muslim nation." Their expectations are very low.

 

[mikey3000]

I think his lack of remorse and shame speaks volumes. Does he have to be remorseful? Legally, no, but ethically? of course! especially since this is his 'adopted home', a country that took him and his family in as immigrants and gave them protection and a fresh start. Oh man, is the west ever in trouble, just wait and see.

 

[TX-Beau]

I think his lack of remorse and shame speaks volumes. Does he have to be remorseful? Legally, no, but ethically? of course! especially since this is his 'adopted home', a country that took him and his family in as immigrants and gave them protection and a fresh start. Oh man, is the west ever in trouble, just wait and see.

What a drama queen.

 

[eastofeden]

For me...I have the exact same problem with anyone on most issues in life...CAN'T STAND PEOPLE WHO DON'T OWN THEIR SHIT.

His ethnicity is NOT an issue for me and I do not agree with the right wing bullshit that paints them all with a broad brush. I see them all as individuals...

..and THIS individual is a fucking homophobic asshole who is loud and obnoxious and who raised a son who went on to slaughter the very people he ranted about...

When he said he was sorry...BULLSHIT. You cannot be sorry about ANYTHING unless you own your role in it..the part you played..and he owned NOTHING. Same with Pam Bondi where Anderson Cooper nailed her. If you are homophobic and do and say things that advocate harm and discrimination ...DO NOT say you are sorry when something like Orlando happens because people who play these roles in life and choose this battle are all part of it.

In Prayers for Bobby..his mother OWNED HER ROLE in his demise...I have nothing but respect and love for her.

This is also why I have a (low) level of respect for the Kansas fuckheads who protest the funerals. They own it and don't pretend anything....

I would respect him as well if he did the same..but he DID NOT!!!!!! He should never have flaunted himself publicly so soon after the tragedy his son caused....

 

[TX-Beau]

For me...I have the exact same problem with anyone on most issues in life...CAN'T STAND PEOPLE WHO DON'T OWN THEIR SHIT.

His ethnicity is NOT an issue for me and I do not agree with the right wing bullshit that paints them all with a broad brush. I see them all as individuals...

..and THIS individual is a fucking homophobic asshole who is loud and obnoxious and who raised a son who went on to slaughter the very people he ranted about...

When he said he was sorry...BULLSHIT. You cannot be sorry about ANYTHING unless you own your role in it..the part you played..and he owned NOTHING. Same with Pam Bondi where Anderson Cooper nailed her. If you are homophobic and do and say things that advocate harm and discrimination ...DO NOT say you are sorry when something like Orlando happens because people who play these roles in life and choose this battle are all part of it.

In Prayers for Bobby..his mother OWNED HER ROLE in his demise...I have nothing but respect and love for her.

I would respect him as well if he did the same..but he DID NOT!!!!!! He should never have flaunted himself publicly so soon after the tragedy his son caused....

No one respects ginormous douche-bags, but until they commit crimes, they get to be ginormous douche bags. The right in this country thinks you are a child molester and aren't repentant for your role in that. Have you molested any children?

I personally am far, far more worried about ginormous douche-bags like the Christian right who are actually passing laws in this country. When was the last time you saw an Islamic religious law going through a state-house?

That would be never, and it would be ridiculous to suggest it was happening anywhere in this country, or even close to happening anywhere.

The people trying to fuck us all over in this country are all Christians. Why then are you so outraged by this guy?

 

[eastofeden]

No one respects ginormous douche-bags, but until they commit crimes, they get to be ginormous douche bags. The right in this country thinks you are a child molester and aren't repentant for your role in that. Have you molested any children?

I personally am far, far more worried about ginormous douche-bags like the Christian right who are actually passing laws in this country. When was the last time you saw an Islamic religious law going through a state-house?

That would be never, and it would be ridiculous to suggest it was happening anywhere in this country, or even close to happening anywhere.

The people trying to fuck us all over in this country are all Christians. Why then are you so outraged by this guy?

I guess I haven't posted on this board too much about the Christiban..but I have said the exact same thing about them for years and years...in the 3-D world and online. I am outraged by ANYONE who thinks they speak for GOD and uses it as a weapon....

The board I was on the longest..I had a reputation for it.

You are correct that in the US we have to deal with the fucking Christians but I am not gonna pretend that these guys are any better. I am not gonna pretend they don't advocate for the death penalty..with success if many countries....but I still don't think every Christian or every Muslim believe any one thing. I specifically call out the people who make a point of condemning homosexuals in the name of their sky daddy....

...and I think if you contribute to the problem..you are part of it. This man is part of it...and in light of what happened...have some fucking respect and get lost for awhile.

The guy who went into the Church and shot Black People....I have no doubt he was a fucked up Christian Boy who had racist parents and was raised in a racist environment so I would have the same problem with his parents showing up anywhere....unless they want to be part of the solution which means they need to own their role in their son's actions.

 

[TX-Beau]

The point is that the laws that protect homophobic Muslims from persecution, are the same laws that protect us from homophobic Christians. They are why we have made all the progress we have made.

There is no liberty unless we are all free.

And yes, that means rule of law, one cannot convict someone of something they did not do.

There is also law about when speech becomes complicity. IF you think this father was complicit in his son's crimes, then prove it - there IS a legal standard.

 

[eastofeden]

One more thing.....

I am never gonna forget that his son killed what I consider my brothers and sisters...never....and you are right about me being outraged..but I can promise you that I would be equally outraged if it was a White Christian....I guarantee it.

 

[TX-Beau]

One more thing.....

I am never gonna forget that his son killed what I consider my brothers and sisters...never....and you are right about me being outraged..but I can promise you that I would be equally outraged if it was a White Christian....I guarantee it.

Yeah, there are none of us who are going to forgive the asshole who committed the massacre, but we aren't talking about him.

 

[eastofeden]

The point is that the laws that protect homophobic Muslims from persecution, are the same laws that protect us from homophobic Christians. They are why we have made all the progress we have made.

There is no liberty unless we are all free.

And yes, that means rule of law, one cannot convict someone of something they did not do.

There is also law about when speech becomes complicity. IF you think this father was complicit in his son's crimes, then prove it - there IS a legal standard.

If I had a child and I was a ranting homophobe who condemned gay people...and he went out and murdered gay people....I don't care what the legal definition is. I raised him and I would understand my role in his life....and I would own it.....

It doesn't matter to me what the legal definition is.....I am not suggesting we prosecute him or anyone else for someone else's actions. I AM suggesting they played a role in it...and in order to change..and BEFORE you say you are sorry..please understand that you have a role in it...if that is the case..and there is no doubt with this man that he is part of the problem and of course he had an infuience on his son....

 

[TX-Beau]

If I had a child and I was a ranting homophobe who condemned gay people...and he went out and murdered gay people....I don't care what the legal definition is. I raised him and I would understand my role in his life....and I would own it.....

It doesn't matter to me what the legal definition is.....I am not suggesting we prosecute him or anyone else for someone else's actions. I AM suggesting they played a role in it...and in order to change..and BEFORE you say you are sorry..please understand that you have a role in it...if that is the case..and there is no doubt with this man that he is part of the problem and of course he had an infuience on his son....

Oh come on, if you were a ranting homophobe, you'd think you were perfectly justified and would feel no remorse whatsoever.

You can feel whatever you want about his role in whatever, but this is a free country and so can he, and that is WHY we have a rule of law, and before we wander too far afield can we recall why we are discussing this in the first place.

Because he went to a rally for Hillary and the 'pubs want you to think she's a terrorist sympathizer.

 

[eastofeden]

Oh come on, if you were a ranting homophobe, you'd think you were perfectly justified and would feel no remorse whatsoever.

You can feel whatever you want about his role in whatever, but this is a free country and so can he, and that is WHY we have a rule of law, and before we wander too far afield can we recall why we are discussing this in the first place.

Because he went to a rally for Hillary and the 'pubs want you to think she's a terrorist sympathizer.

I think they want to make up lies and if they make up enough of them...almost 30 years worth now..enough of them will stick..so they will use ANYTHING they can to paint her as a demon.....

I don't even consider where he was with my response. My problem is that he was sitting in public where he knew the camera would be on him. I think he is an asshole....I doubt very seriously that I will ever see him in any other light unless I heard him address his role in his son's life....

I also have a huge personal issue with anyone who doesn't look at their role in anything...period. It is personal and I keep chronic victims and people who can't take responsibility for their actions away from me in my personal life because I find they suck the life out of everyone around them.... and I get that it isn't even on most people's radar...and I accept that for what it is...but it doesn't change my issue with people like Mr Mateen...

 

[kallipolis]

You can feel whatever you want about his role in whatever, but this is a free country and so can he, and that is WHY we have a rule of law, and before we wander too far afield can we recall why we are discussing this in the first place.

Often overlooked when discussing ass holes who with time, and living experience can become less of an ass hole.

 

[TX-Beau]

I think they want to make up lies and if they make up enough of them...almost 30 years worth now..enough of them will stick..so they will use ANYTHING they can to paint her as a demon.....

I don't even consider where he was with my response. My problem is that he was sitting in public where he knew the camera would be on him. I think he is an asshole....I doubt very seriously that I will ever see him in any other light unless I heard him address his role in his son's life....

I also have a huge personal issue with anyone who doesn't look at their role in anything...period. It is personal and I keep chronic victims and people who can't take responsibility for their actions away from me in my personal life because I find they suck the life out of everyone around them.... and I get that it isn't even on most people's radar...and I accept that for what it is...but it doesn't change my issue with people like Mr Mateen...

You know what, I agree completely with you about people who go through their lives sowing chaos, whatever kind it may be. To be perfectly frank, I'm pretty much more offended by the Muslims who come to my attention than not. I'm pretty sure that's because I only see exposure of the offensive ones, but then they aren't invented either. Then I go home, and listen to all those kind and generous Christians, and realize there is no fucking difference.

What differentiates, and the ONLY thing that differentiates, is that homophobic Christians in this country do not have the opportunity or the political power to do to us everything ISIS does to us.

I always end up in these arguments defending people I don't like at all, but that is because I know who the enemy really is, and for us, it's not Muslims. It's the people trying to scare us into letting the far right in this country destroy our secular government.

 

[kallipolis]

Labeling speaks often of our own prejudices that are calculated to reflect our fears of the people who live on the other side of the hill, whose skin pigmentation, language, and cultural habits are different from ours.

Gays remain a source of ridicule, and offensive vitriol simply because of the self destructive behaviour of a few.

The tactics of fear work well when targeting those who are easily persuaded that a minority should be treated with contempt, arising from the actions of a few whose inhumanity claims all the headlines, all the sound bites, and all the air time.

 

[BigChicken]

You know what, I agree completely with you about people who go through their lives sowing chaos, whatever kind it may be. To be perfectly frank, I'm pretty much more offended by the Muslims who come to my attention than not. I'm pretty sure that's because I only see exposure of the offensive ones, but then they aren't invented either. Then I go home, and listen to all those kind and generous Christians, and realize there is no fucking difference.

What differentiates, and the ONLY thing that differentiates, is that homophobic Christians in this country do not have the opportunity or the political power to do to us everything ISIS does to us.

I always end up in these arguments defending people I don't like at all, but that is because I know who the enemy really is, and for us, it's not Muslims. It's the people trying to scare us into letting the far right in this country destroy our secular government.

This is what I am afraid of-- the religious fanatics of any religion-- Christian or Muslim-- destroying our secular government. I am an atheist. I don't believe in God. There is no afterlife. There is no heaven. There is no hell. And guess what? I am a registered Democrat, and I usually vote for Democrats. I don't like Trump, but I don't Clinton, either. I'm planning on voting for Gary Johnson.

What I want is a political solution. I want the Democrats to make it clear that religious extremism will not be acceptable from any religion, including Islam. Right now there seems to be a double standard. They allow people who openly support Sharia to speak at their conventions. I wouldn't want a homophobic misogynistic Baptist preacher speaking at the convention, either. I want them to separate the religous aspect out of the equation, and be open and honest about how the Muslim religion treats gays, women, and anyone who disagrees with their religious dogma. They should be treated the same as we treat the homophobic misogynistic Baptists.

 

[gsdx]

I want the Democrats to make it clear that religious extremism will not be acceptable from any religion, including Islam.

Ah, but it IS acceptable, and has been acceptable for 150 years in the form of the KKK (founded in 1866). The only reason that the KKK still exists and gets away with what it does if because it is classified as a religion, and a fanatical one at that.