So heres the dillemna

[PreTTy PeTe]

dreu

fuck religion
do what's best for your health
take care of yourself.....................
your health is most important now.

take it from a lapsed catholic like me
i refused to do my confirmation..............
all of 13 and i was a rebel...........
i didn't believe in their views of god.

 

[Andreus]

I don't profess to understand Allah's will regarding life's travails, tests, suffering and etc. but I'm going to assume Allah is supposed to love his children and desire their health and prosperity.

Is not then, taking care of your health so, in future, you may celebrate many more Ramadan in the future a good thing and something Allah would be pleased with? Is not promoting your healing a GOOD thing?

a harsh truth

the quran does not view physical death as something particularly bad

here is what the Surah that i am focused on say in reference to JOB's predicament of physical infirmity....

Allah is speaking to Iblis, an angel that tested JOB, and what he expects JOBs response will be.....

[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]I give you authority over his body but not over his soul, intellect, or
heart, for in these places reside the knowledge of Me

......

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]Iblis began to take revenge on Job's body and filled it with disease until it was reduced to mere skin and bone and he suffered severe pain. But through all the suffering Job remained strong in his faith, patiently bearing all the hardships without complaining.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]
it would seem obvious what i am expected to do
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Just_Believe18]

Andreus, my uncles have AIDS and weight gain is very, very important.

You must make an exception this year because of your hospital visit. It devastated your health and I'm sure you are still recovering from that episode. The last thing you need is to force your body into more stress by denying yourself sustinence during the worst season for HIV/AIDS patients.

Next year, when you are healthy and voluptuous, you can fast.

 

[Andreus]

This is a situation where you have, to use the satirical phrase, choose the lesser of two evils. But may i ask if you are here looking for a way to justify to yourself that it is ok to follow your doctor's orders? Or are you here to justify the opposite? Or is it something else? In which case, i have to ask, what would make you feel comfortable in following your doctors orders? Is there anything? If there is, how do we get you to that point?

i have never felt like i had to skip the fast... it always seemed like an honor instead of a challenge

i think

i have some instinctive sense that this year i need to really be careful

i rarely ignore that insinct and i am trying to find my way.... a way that includes my faith and my doctors

 

[mike_n_herrin]

I'm sorry drew, i'm not going to be of help to you. I am not religious. I respect other's religious beliefs, and I don't claim to know the nature of the universe, or say there is "no" god when in fact I don't know. This is a fundamental problem with believeing in a devine being...you never really know what god wants. all you have is what people have said god wants. It would seem to me thought that god wouldn't want to you get sick again after having seen you through your most recent life threatening situation. What then would have been the point of being sick the first time only to die a few weeks later? What about your brother and father's sacrifices while you were in the hospital? your brother sat with you (or outside your room because they wouldnt' let him stay in there) for long long hours. they both worried and then informed all of us and we all worried.

I try to approach life from a logical perspective (forgive me if that sounds too star trekish) and I do not see any logic is fasting for a month during your recovery from a serious condition. I don't see how you will ever actually recover from this, you'll get better but that isn't the same thing as recovered. I almost wanted to say remission, but that's not the right term i think that only applies to cancers.

I agree with danny, after a very near encounter with death, if you are not being very introspective at this time and on a journey to have a better understanding of yourself, then you should be! Usually brushes with death trigger a period of review of one's life and how you got to where ever you are.

What about fasting every other day? Making sure you ate enough after sundown.

 

[Jeimuzu]

that quote is not really applicable for me.... it just says what i would have to do IF i am incurably ill or bleeding...

first i have to be one of those two things....

dunno

lots to think about

All it seems to say is "Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days."

You are ill.

Therefore, you may substitute the same number of days.

As it is, right now you'd better be eating some seriously fatty food, Dreu. Whatever happens, spend these five days eating a lot, and then maybe when you hit Ramadan, if you do choose to fast - only you get the final decision - maybe you'll cope a little better.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

i have never felt like i had to skip the fast... it always seemed like an honor instead of a challenge

i think

i have some instinctive sense that this year i need to really be careful

i rarely ignore that insinct and i am trying to find my way.... a way that includes my faith and my doctors

if you are trying to find a path in the darkness to reach a greater truth, that's a journey.


psst. don't lose the ring trying to follow the path.

 

[valis23]

I don't know why I'm still shocked when Piggy comes up with the logical solution. He's really quite good at it.

Make the attempt, but watch your ass. If you can't eat enough to satisfy your doctor's wishes, you may have to abandon the attempt.

 

[Andreus]

i guess i ought to quallify alot of this with a few other thoughts and beliefs that are plaguing me that my therapist and i are dealing with...

when i look back.. i see that there is one moment in my life... one time when i diverged from the path that i was given....

when i survived the injury in Iraq... all other health issues i have stem from that moment....

i talked to jeremiah about this a few times... I feel like i am... hmmm .... tricking fate from here on out...

there are days when i honestly wonder whether or not i am really dead or alive... whether or not this is all just the final journey of my soul to accept that reality...

this i know.... Iraq killed me... i am just waiting for it to occur... HIV infection and internal damages have made that a reality i simply cannot avoid... i am just waiting around for it happen, i think

and so how will it happen... and when.... this is the issue i am thinking about

my therapist has defined any attempts at fasting this year as passive suicide due to depression

she has not said what her course of action will be, but i am aware of what her legal obligations are if that is her real diagnosis

my medical team has apparently decided all this for me

i dont like that at all

and that is why Mitri thinks i am letting my worst character trait... stubborness... guide me.... but he is a murtad fitri and so i cannot consider his words in this

 

[Jeimuzu]

and that is why Mitri thinks i am letting my worst character trait... stubborness... guide me.... but he is a murtad fitri and so i cannot consider his words in this

He is your brother. Religion or not, he wants the best for you, and sometimes you need the outside perspective.

Don't talk like you're already dead, Andreus. That attitude is virtually suicide in itself. You are not well! If a harsh winter can kill you, YOU ARE ILL. If anyone qualifies for substituting the days, you do. Why can't you see that?

What's the problem, anyway? You'll still be respecting him as much as ever.

You don't want to feel weak, that's obvious. I'm guessing that's why you're wanting to go against your doctor's words, because he's implying that you won't survive if you don't fatten up.

Well, Dreu... hate to say it, but he's not lying to you.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

If you feel you are essentially dead, then I suspect your therapist is right. it seems to me you would just be looking for a way to let go. is suicide sanctioned in your religion? it tends not to be in christianity and tends to be viewed as a unforgivable sin.

drew forgive me for being blunt here and not as understanding as you need, but you are causing your own personal conflict here. life is a precious gift and throwing it away is a slap your god's face. your god decides when your life is over not you. if you believe your god wants you dead after all you've been through and all god has held your hand through then go ahead and starve your self, but that just doesn't make sense. why would he see you through all that just to see you dead or seriously ill again because you wouldn't eat?

 

[Andreus]

If you feel you are essentially dead, then I suspect your therapist is right. it seems to me you would just be looking for a way to let go. is suicide sanctioned in your religion? it tends not to be in christianity and tends to be viewed as a unforgivable sin.

drew forgive me for being blunt here and not as understanding as you need, but you are causing your own personal conflict here. life is a precious gift and throwing it away is a slap your god's face. your god decides when your life is over not you. if you believe your god wants you dead after all you've been through and all god has held your hand through then go ahead and starve your self, but that just doesn't make sense. why would he see you through all that just to see you dead or seriously ill again because you wouldn't eat?

it would seem you are right in many respects and... hence.... my hesitance...

that is the other thing that i am conflicted about

the quran... islam... considers a mans intent...never his actions....

"And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you". (Surah An-Nisa Verse 29)

"And do not throw yourselves in destruction". (Surah Al-Baqarah Verse 195)

"He has forbidden you only the carrion, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah. But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."(Surah Al-Baqarah Verse 173)

i need to understand my heart

and that has always been hard for me

 

[biospeak]

Become an atheist , it will solve all irrational religious nonse in your life.
Worked for me .

 

[Jeimuzu]

Dreu, I'd never realised it before, but I've actually got a little respect for Islam, reading those quotes you posted. (incidentally, 'a little' is a lot more than most religions get from me)

In particular, Surah Al-Baqarah Verse 173. Basically, it appears to state that if it's not wilful disobedience, but an act drawn from necessity, then you aren't sinning at all.

Most religions don't leave loopholes for those in need. In particular, I know a few Christians who honestly believe that they're going to hell for things they had no control over.

Become an atheist , it will solve all irrational religious nonse in your life.
Worked for me .

Work on tact. In a religious debate, telling the person to convert to your religious beliefs to 'solve all religious nonsense' is frankly an insult. And no, I'm not religious. I'm actually agnostic. However, I accept that people have beliefs, and thus I try to fashion a logical alternative or loophole that doesn't force people to abandon their fundamental religious ideals.

 

[Andreus]

Dreu, I'd never realised it before, but I've actually got a little respect for Islam, reading those quotes you posted. (incidentally, 'a little' is a lot more than most religions get from me)

In particular, Surah Al-Baqarah Verse 173. Basically, it appears to state that if it's not wilful disobedience, but an act drawn from necessity, then you aren't sinning at all.

Most religions don't leave loopholes for those in need. In particular, I know a few Christians who honestly believe that they're going to hell for things they had no control over.

Doing the right things for the wrong reasons is as unnaceptable for us as doing the wrong thing for the right reason

that is why we are so introspective

its all about your heart and what you intend

there is no escaping your own intentions

it works in both directions though

there is no forgiveness for a wrong if you still intend on doing it again... faith is not supposed to be a philosophical get out of jail card... its supposed to be something that calls you to a better way of existing

a means to your higher self

 

[Jeimuzu]

All I can really say by now is that Mitri's right: You're way too stubborn for your own good.

Just look after yourself, please, Dreu.

 

[Críostóir]

ramadan is a month...

no drinking as an always thing for muslims... no smoking of any sort is a ramadan thing, as well as erotic images.... those are also off for ramadan

as piggy asked.... that doesnt even begin to cover the medication issues involved

nocturnal existence is an option i believe.... and i may consider that.... but to me it feels like cheating

Hmm. Sounds to me like you're about the letter when the letter favors fasting, but about the spirit when the spirit favors fasting.

Pick one. If you pick the letter, do whatever the letter allows you to do. That includes being nocturnal.

If you pick the spirit, ask yourself what Ramadan is for. IIUC it is to remind people who have food and water of the suffering of those who don't. You could find another way to be continuously conscious of that during Ramadan; for example, you could work a kitchen shift at a homeless shelter every day. Or find some other appropriate devotion, one that promotes a social good.

You can also ask yourself what Allah would want here. Would He want you to make yourself ill? Would the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) have intended someone who is dangerously underweight to undertake this fast? I very much doubt it.

One other thing: ask yourself if you're really just using Ramadan as an excuse to starve yourself. If you are...well, I will leave it to other Moslems to decide whether that constitutes blasphemy, but I certainly think your brother is right to be angry.

 

[Críostóir]

Oh, and: if you aren't spending the next five days eating as much as you can possibly swallow without vomiting, that's compelling evidence that Ramadan is an excuse.

 

[Andreus]

well

after rereading this thread and considering the fact that if i fast mitri will rat me out like a dog...

i am leaning towards this ....

i will try to sleep during the day... only consume water and medication when its light..... and eat alot during the dark hours

i am talking about this openly because i need to understand myself

i need input from people who know me

i am not

 

[GL]

i guess i ought to quallify alot of this with a few other thoughts and beliefs that are plaguing me that my therapist and i are dealing with...

when i look back.. i see that there is one moment in my life... one time when i diverged from the path that i was given....

when i survived the injury in Iraq... all other health issues i have stem from that moment....

i talked to jeremiah about this a few times... I feel like i am... hmmm .... tricking fate from here on out...

there are days when i honestly wonder whether or not i am really dead or alive... whether or not this is all just the final journey of my soul to accept that reality...

this i know.... Iraq killed me... i am just waiting for it to occur... HIV infection and internal damages have made that a reality i simply cannot avoid... i am just waiting around for it happen, i think

and so how will it happen... and when.... this is the issue i am thinking about

my therapist has defined any attempts at fasting this year as passive suicide due to depression

she has not said what her course of action will be, but i am aware of what her legal obligations are if that is her real diagnosis

my medical team has apparently decided all this for me

i dont like that at all

and that is why Mitri thinks i am letting my worst character trait... stubborness... guide me.... but he is a murtad fitri and so i cannot consider his words in this

you are breaking my heart here. this is nuts. i'm sorry, but it is.

god has saved your ass on more than one occassion and you sit there and try to defy what he's done? what gives? i'm sorry, but i cannot and will not sit by and watch you do something like this. i don't want or need to be worried for you. i've already got enough on my plate being worried about jake.

you are alive. you are breathing. you have people who love you and yet you triffle with your life? ramadan can wait until next year!

i'm serious, i just don't know what to say to you right now.