Video So one currency Euro was a bad idea ??

[T-Rexx]

Now the International Monetary Fund (of all people) has issued a statement scathingly critical of the agreement.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2015/cr15186.pdf

The IMF estimates Greek debt will reach 200% of GDP as a result of this agreeent, a level it does not regard as sustainable. The IMF does not believe it is possible for Greece to maintain the 3.5% budget surplus demanded in the agreement. It thinks the economic growth forecast in the agreement is impossible for Greece to attain, and it laments that nothing has been done to address the poor governance of Greek banks.

The IMF's statements may make it difficult for Tsipras to get this deal approved by his Parliament. Why would MPs approve a plan that cannot work?

 

[kallipolis]

Now the International Monetary Fund (of all people) has issued a statement scathingly critical of the agreement.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2015/cr15186.pdf

The IMF estimates Greek debt will reach 200% of GDP as a result of this agreeent, a level it does not regard as sustainable. The IMF does not believe it is possible for Greece to maintain the 3.5% budget surplus demanded in the agreement. It thinks the economic growth forecast in the agreement is impossible for Greece to attain, and it laments that nothing has been done to address the poor governance of Greek banks.

The IMF's statements may make it difficult for Tsipras to get this deal approved by his Parliament. Why would MPs approve a plan that cannot work?

Alexis Tsipras has the votes necessary...with assistance from opposition parties....despite many members of parliament on his extreme left publicly disowning the new memorandum.

Clearly another haircut will be necessary otherwise, the continuing austerity measures (five years of these measures have led to unemployment levels of 25 pct) will make it impossible to service, and pay down the debt, leading to rapidly increasing social distress, and public disorder encouraging increasing support for extremists particularly, our local neo Nazis.

It is crystal clear that Germany now commands the Euro Zone with support from its sycophants...with France, and Italy increasingly concerned that their indebtedness will also attract German "measures." The consequences of the Versailles Treaty are worth recalling.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

 

[bankside]

Five years of complaining about the [STRIKE]austerity measures[/STRIKE] responsibility to pay what one agrees to pay has lead to that unemployment rate.

The agreement is brilliant mostly in that it requires Greece to actually keep each commitment before any additional money is transferred, a condition which Tsipras has already railed against and found burdensome and "humiliating." Good for Germany, protecting its own taxpayers from further theft.

 

[kallipolis]

^That after five years of austerity measures Greece's debt continues to increase evidences the fact that the medicine is not working..and extending, and expanding the austerity programme will continue to increase Greek indebtedness...and continue to shrink the Greek economy....

....one does not need to be a mathmetician, or economist to understand that without significant debt relief the current austerity programme will not enable Greece to pay back its loans.

The IMF, and the United States Treasury, and the Bank of England are attempting to persuade Germany to consider debt relief....

To quote the IMF report:

“The dramatic deterioration in debt sustainability points to the need for debt relief on a scale that would need to go well beyond what has been under consideration to date – and what has been proposed by the ESM,”

The IMF also says that Greece’s debts threaten to be unsustainable for decades, and that its financing needs will rise so that they are above the 15% of national income level deemed safe. The IMF further adds that unless Euro Zone creditors agree to an extended grace period, they face the choice of either annual transfers to the Greek budget, or “deep upfront haircuts” otherwise, known as debt cancellation.

 

[bankside]

Kallipolis you must understand that Europe bailed Greece out already due to its self-inflicted financial failings. It got the bailout. It got the cash. It got the "haircut" leaving investors on the hook for Greece's unwillingness to keep its promises.

In short it had its second chance. All we see in that five years since is Greek people, and Greek governments whining about what Europe "inflicted" on them with their help.

No structural reforms. No sales of bloated and corruption-riddled state assets. Inadequate pension reforms. Ridiculous tax exemptions. Reversals on government downsizing. Revival of failed state broadcasters.

Do you understand it would be treasonous for Merkel to take more money from German citizens to prop up incompetent Greek government ministers, when Greece will do nothing with that money but try to forget their troubles like a drunk slumped over the bar, and while even now other hard-working European countries are developing their economies from lower levels than Greece, without all the whining and begging and astonishing arrogance.

Do you see that if she is to help Greece at all it can only be after Greece has done these basic things for itself, after it has done as much as the other developing economies of Europe who have not staged a 5-year farce of tantrum and delusion?

Greece complains about suffering from a lack of solidarity, but now Greece must be the one to show solidarity with other Europeans, living in weaker, smaller, post-communist countries. Greece should insist that Germany spend in those countries instead, for at least they have had the courage to face their problems instead of dwelling in Varoufakian delusion.

At least there are a few Greek politicians still sane enough and wise enough to question his idiocy.

 

[kallipolis]

Kallipolis you must understand that Europe bailed Greece

The Euro Zone nations bailed out the lending banks...mostly, German, and French....some 90 pct of Euro Zone tax payers money saved German, and French banks from collapsing....

...the borrowers have not received similar consideration.....

 

[Alnitak]

This situation reminds me so much of the early United States - a confederation much like the European Union. First, the US issued a national "Continental" dollar, which failed for many reasons, but in part because the states continued their colonial monetary policies. That all changed when the US passed a federal constitution and placed monetary policy in the hands of one powerful individual. Merkel cannot be that person for Europe, so it seems to me, unless the continent establishes a stronger federal constitution.

 

[TX-Beau]

This situation reminds me so much of the early United States - a confederation much like the European Union. First, the US issued a national "Continental" dollar, which failed for many reasons, but in part because the states continued their colonial monetary policies. That all changed when the US passed a federal constitution and placed monetary policy in the hands of one powerful individual. Merkel cannot be that person for Europe, so it seems to me, unless the continent establishes a stronger federal constitution.

The reason the Fed worked for us is that all the states agreed to surrender sovereignty. That will never happen in Europe.

 

[kallipolis]

The reason the Fed worked for us is that all the states agreed to surrender sovereignty. That will never happen in Europe.

Noteworthy for the United States was established by British colonists, speaking one language...a huge advantage...whereas, in Europe we are faced with many peoples, languages, cultures...and recent conflicts..WW1&11... that continue to influence how matters develop....nevertheless, good reason to keep on trying to cooperate to ensure there is no repetition of previous conflicts that so devastated the 20th century life of most human beings.

 

[Telstra]

Noteworthy for the United States was established by British colonists, speaking one language...a huge advantage...whereas, in Europe we are faced with many peoples, languages, cultures...and recent conflicts..WW1&11... that continue to influence how matters develop....nevertheless, good reason to keep on trying to cooperate to ensure there is no repetition of previous conflicts that so devastated the 20th century life of most human beings.

That doesn't answer TX-Beaui's statement.

 

[kallipolis]

That doesn't answer TX-Beaui's statement.

I'm not a clairvoyant therefore, unable to forecast the future.

 

[kallipolis]

That doesn't answer TX-Beaui's statement.

As a further thought knowing something of the ideas supporting String Theory I can assure you that there must be at least one quantum universe in which people can make their debt disappear by singing Kumbaya loudly enough....and often, enough....

....how's that as an answer that addresses Tx-Beau's opinion?

 

[Telstra]

ok kallipolis

Anyway, quite afew members here saying single currency is for single country where the government will help out the poorer states. This is not the case in Europe.

 

[bankside]

I suspect that Angela Merkel's treatment of Greece is the beginning of the end of the euro.

While she now has a signed agreement with Greece, this is not a resolution of the problem. The austerity measures in Greece have not worked and have destroyed the economy there. Merkel has pretty much alienated the entire south of Europe, as well as France. 60% of French citizens in the latest poll would prefer that France pull out of the E.U. Growth in Italy, which was robust up to the time of adoption of the euro, has been essentially been 0% since 1999.

The euro has been fantastic for Germany, but it has been a disaster for most of the rest of Europe. It simply does not work to have Germany dictating economic policy to countries with which it is competing economically.

I think it's the other way around actually. The useless ineptitude and habitual corruption of politicians in the south of Europe, and France, has alienated the prosperous countries of Europe who all realise prosperity has to be earned. Most of all: the incredibly arrogant sense of entitlement in the populations there that they should not have to work as hard, save as hard, plan as carefully, in order to reach the same level of wealth. We see it even in this thread.

The Euro has been a fantastic opportunity for every country in Europe, though not all have seized it.

And there is nothing better. The choice for these countries is, cleaning up their act, and trying to stop alienating the functioning northern european countries. .In other words making the Euro work.

Or, pretend it was a mistake, pretend it is Germany's fault, cancel the Euro, and then??? Everyone will end up using the Deutschmark instead, because it will be the only currency in Europe that is not worthless. How much control would Italy or Portugal have over the exchange rate of the Deutschmark? Zero.

 

[bankside]

The Euro Zone nations bailed out the lending banks...mostly, German, and French....some 90 pct of Euro Zone tax payers money saved German, and French banks from collapsing....

...the borrowers have not received similar consideration.....

Not remotely true.

Kallipolis, if I pay your credit card bill for you, I have bailed you out, not Visa.

Greece was bailed out because GREECE's obligations were covered by...everyone but the Greeks! To come back yet AGAIN and need the same bailout? Of course Germany should be skeptical. Especially with a crazy Greek government that believes it has the right to pretend to be Robin Hood, and that it has the right to just take German money simply because the Germans have more of it.

If I pay your credit card bill once, but I say to you, "Listen this is unfortunate, I've taken care of it for you; we'll get through this together, but you need to look at your spending. And in all honesty your plans for early retirement are out of the question. You may have to sell your car and take the bus instead," and then you ignore all of that advice, and whine about how bossy I am, and you complain about how rough you have it, and how lucky Visa is to have you as a customer, and how I care about Visa more than you....

...and THEN you come back again with your next credit card bill having done absolutely nothing to manage on your own, at that point not only would I be happy to see your credit card cut up, but I don't care if you starve.

 

[kallipolis]

The useless ineptitude and habitual corruption of politicians in the south of Europe, and France, has alienated the prosperous countries of Europe

A former Greek secretary of state for defence is presently a guest at Athens Prison where he will remain until his death the result of having been bribed with millions by German defence contractors....Greece has one of the best German equipped defence forces in NATO.

 

[kallipolis]

Greece was bailed out

The German, and French banks that lent so recklessly to the Greek Government have been saved from collapse by bail outs provided by the Euro Zone tax payers....those bail outs of the lending banks continue....thanks to the Euro Zone tax payer.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...ailout-was-to-save-german-french-banks-video/

I quote:

IMF’s Director Batista: Greek bailout was “to save German & French banks” (video)
Posted by keeptalkinggreece in Economy

This was never said officially before! “They gave money to save German and French banks, not Greece,” Paolo Batista, one of the Executive Directors of International Monetary Fund told Greek private Alpha TV on Tuesday. Batista strongly criticized not only the euro zone and the European Central Bank but also the IMF and the Fund’s managing Director Christine Lagarde for defending Europe much too much..

He urged Greece to directly negotiate with the IMF and favored the restructuring of the Greek debt that is been hold by the European partners.

 

[bankside]

Kallipolis, you make it seem that the Greek government was the victim in this, by the actions of what you claim are predatory and reckless lenders.

I think that is nonsense, because governments always trump lenders in terms of their capacity and capability.

I note that you now proclaim the solution to Greece's problems is another bail-out...by...wait for it....other governments. It is interesting that you can so easily assume they are able to take on this burden; that they have the capacity and the wherewithal to assist, when we have previously learnt from you that a government is a fragile and timid thing, so easily victimised by those predatory lenders.

Unless you think that only applies to the Greek government.

What is it about the Greek government that makes it so uniquely incompetent and incapacitated that it was unable to judge for itself how much it could afford to repay?

 

[Telstra]

Kallipolis, you make it seem that the Greek government was the victim in this, by the actions of what you claim are predatory and reckless lenders.

I think that is nonsense, because governments always trump lenders in terms of their capacity and capability.

I note that you now proclaim the solution to Greece's problems is another bail-out...by...wait for it....other governments. It is interesting that you can so easily assume they are able to take on this burden; that they have the capacity and the wherewithal to assist, when we have previously learnt from you that a government is a fragile and timid thing, so easily victimised by those predatory lenders.

Unless you think that only applies to the Greek government.

What is it about the Greek government that makes it so uniquely incompetent and incapacitated that it was unable to judge for itself how much it could afford to repay?

You sounds like an expert on this.
Can you tell me why poor country have to pay high interest rates when borrowing
and rich country (OR powerful country like the US) pay very little interest rate ? and is this fair ??

 

[Vitamin]

You sounds like an expert on this.
Can you tell me why poor country have to pay high interest rates when borrowing
and rich country (OR powerful country like the US) pay very little interest rate ? and is this fair ??

It's not. But then again, poorer US states don't have to borrow from richer US states now do they? Welcome to the fucking Euro, Telstra.