State Sponsored Homophobia: World Homosexuality Laws

[pat grimshaw]

... Africa for the most part was either indifferent or tolerant of homosexuality before the British brought their Victorian crackdown...

That is such a BIG assertion.

Probably a billion people, 3,000 distinct ethnic groups, two centuries ago. Following the laws of Westminster, Queen Victoria etc.

 

[kallipolis]

It strikes me as farcical that there are those here who imagine that in a few African countries the revival of homophobic legal, and religious traditions is entirely the result of colonisation by the United Kingdom for, such bizarre guess work assumes the error of distilling everything sexual down to developments arising from the colonial era when, there are also former UK dominions such as South Africa where legislation reflects current United Kingdom practice for same sex couples....should we not applaud South Africa for its progressive legislation?

The common theme is that there are people who attribute things they don't like to colonialism, and things they do like to pre-colonial practices....thus, homophobes claim that homosexuality came from colonialism, while anti-homophobes claim homophobia came from colonialism. Both claims impossible to prove.

That countries such as Uganda were granted independence by the United Kingdom some fifty years ago, it would be reasonable to suppose that it is sufficient time for their respective legislatures to emulate the legislative changes underway in the United Kingdom since 1967 reflecting change in the public's perception of the sexual life of the human person.

It is worth asking why homophobic laws have increased, in such countries as Uganda, and Nigeria as these countries have forged their own identities as nations long independent of the United Kingdom while, others such as South Africa...and other former British dominions such as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand demonstrate that they can lead the way in progressive legislation that eliminates discriminatory practices previously levelled at gays.

The OP on this thread begs sound reasoning, for it represents an agenda driven attempt to blame legislation imposed some 150 years ago, for today's regressive legislative practices in Uganda representing the current cultural beliefs of some African legislators driven more by ignorance than enlightened social awareness.

 

[kallipolis]

And whilst you are correct that homosexuality wasn't such a big issue in Africa prior to colonialism,

I'm still waiting for credible evidence that supports this assertion....that a politically driven agenda, says it is so, doesn't make it so.

The problem with sub-Saharan Africa is that there is very, very little, if any tangible record of tribal responses to same sex sexual practices....whilst, also enthusiastic to read scholarly articles that might well enlighten me.....here, I do not mean articles from heavily politicised organisations that pretend their assumptions should be read as fact.

 

[Alnitak]

It strikes me as farcical that there are those here who imagine that in a few African countries the revival of homophobic legal, and religious traditions is entirely the result of colonisation by the United Kingdom for, such bizarre guess work assumes the error of distilling everything sexual down to developments arising from the colonial era when, there are also former UK dominions such as South Africa where legislation reflects current United Kingdom practice for same sex couples....should we not applaud South Africa for its progressive legislation?

And you, like everyone else, offer absolutely no evidence for your arguments, just rebuttal on why the preponderance of that which supports mine is wrong, or you just ignore it completely.

The fact remains that the majority of countries in Africa with sodomy laws do so because of Section 377, and those countries are also the worst places in Africa for LGBTs.

Like the HRW said in its lengthy report, this is a Victorian attitude stuck in time.

 

[Alnitak]

Gay Kenyans warn Uganda-style anti-gay bill is coming

Denis Nzioka, a gay rights activist in Kenya, and his colleagues are planning to combat against an anti-gay parliamentary caucus to address the ‘issue’ of homosexuality.

Led by Kiharu MP Irungu Kangata, the leaders have demanded anti-gay laws in the African country to be stricter and enforced.

This is very worrying as I have one friend in Uganda who knows someone in Nairobi. He is hoping to escape there with his boyfriend, but might just have to leave Africa altogether.

 

[kallipolis]

And you, like everyone else, offer absolutely no evidence for your arguments, just rebuttal on why the preponderance of that which supports mine is wrong, or you just ignore it completely.

The fact remains that the majority of countries in Africa with sodomy laws do so because of Section 377, and those countries are also the worst places in Africa for LGBTs.

Like the HRW said in its lengthy report, this is a Victorian attitude stuck in time.

I'm not the poster making the claims....I don't have to prove anything....merely remind you that opinions are not facts... with the added observation that there is no logic in the arguments you have proposed here, when many former British dominions including South Africa lead the way in progressive legislation on same sex relationships....this apart from the fact that the United Kingdom began the process of decriminalising homosexual sexual behaviour back in 1967.

Are the British to be held responsible for those American states that continue to execute those convicted of capital offences despite, the United Kingdom having abolished capital punishment some fifty years ago?

 

[Alnitak]

Inside the tiny church where members of Uganda's beleaguered gay community have found sanctuary

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Anglican missionaries introduced Christianity to Uganda in 1877.

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I'm not the poster making the claims....I don't have the prove anything....

You made a counterclaim. You do have to prove it.

Are the British to be held responsible for those American states that continue to execute those convicted of capital offences despite, the United Kingdom having abolished capital punishment some fifty years ago?

Of course. That's actually a very good point. We adopted much of British common law and penal code that continued after independence, and started repealing them or at least not using the death penalty around the same time that the UK did.

 

[kallipolis]

Inside the tiny church where members of Uganda's beleaguered gay community have found sanctuary



Anglican missionaries introduced Christianity to Uganda in 1877.

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You made a counterclaim. You do have to prove it.

The onus is on you to prove your claims.......saying so, does not make it so....with South Africa proof that progressive legislation in an African country, that is a former British dominion evidences that earlier British legislation can be repealed, and replaced by more progressive laws.

 

[Alnitak]

The onus is on you to prove your claims.......saying so, does not make it so....with South Africa proof that progressive legislation in an African country, that is a former British dominion evidences that earlier British legislation can be repealed, and replaced by more progressive laws.

I did.

There is evidence up and down this thread for my claims.

You made a counterclaim and did not give any evidence.

 

[Alnitak]

A History of Christianity in Uganda

"In 1882 the White Fathers withdrew from Buganda altogether... it seems that they were particularly concerned about the corruption of their orphans and freed slaves by homosexual practices infiltrating into their orphanage from the nearby lubiri.

...

Mwanga succeeded his father in October 1884. He was 18 years old. Mwanga seems to have lacked strong religious convictions--he was a skeptic in an age of faith. His homosexuality alienated him from the missionaries."


Source: R. Heremans, L'Education dans les Missions des Peres Blancs en Afrique Centrale, Brussels, 1983, pp. 100-103.

 

[kallipolis]

I did.

There is evidence up and down this thread for my claims.

You made a counterclaim and did not give any evidence.

No you have not...you have merely supplied us with an agenda driven list of opinions...without proof.

I have reminded you that the most advanced country in sub Saharan Africa, South Africa has followed the example set by the United Kingdom enacting progressive legislation for same sex couples.....proof that post colonial African nations continue to emulate the fine examples set by the former colonial administrator, the United Kingdom.

Sophistic attempts to avoid providing proof, is evidence that the opinion you are offering here is totally devoid of substance....and pretty, coloured maps is not tangible evidence rather, an attempt to ridicule the intelligence of those of us here who are scratching our heads wondering why you are so determined to denigrate the United Kingdom.....we may well guess.

 

[Alnitak]

No you have not...you have merely supplied us with an agenda driven list of opinions...without proof.

I have reminded you that the most advanced country in sub Saharan Africa, South Africa has followed the example set by the United Kingdom enacting progressive legislation for same sex couples.....proof that post colonial African nations continue to emulate the fine examples set by the former colonial administrator, the United Kingdom.

Sophistic attempts to avoid providing proof, is evidence that the opinion you are offering here is totally devoid of substance....and pretty, coloured maps is not tangible evidence rather, an attempt to ridicule the intelligence of those of us here who are scratching our heads wondering why you are so determined to denigrate the United Kingdom.....we may well guess.

I already explained why South Africa is an interesting exception, and the maps are very clearly illustrative of British intervention in Africa. They are not merely "pretty."

You just completely ignore every point of external evidence I offer or just call it silly because you don't like the conclusion that it draws.

And you, like DreamTeam, are participating in a gay rights thread with the sole purpose of defending your fellow Europeans from unflattering facts, and no other reason. You are not even motivated to find out facts and research of your own, just to react to something that reflects poorly on a European country. This fact is thrown into high relief because you, like him, do not participate in these threads to contribute on current LGBT events or discuss our legal rights. [Text: Removed]

 

[TX-Beau]

I'm not trying to defend Europeans from unflattering facts, and still I think the situation is way more complicated than just saying the Brits did it.

But then I also don't really care all that much. However the situation came about, repealing the colonial legal code isn't going to fix anything, nor is some kind of mea culpa from GB. Arguing about if they are guilty is kind of irrelevant.

AMERICAN pshyco fundies with "kill the gays" agendas have been working on Africa for years - let's not discount their contributions. AIDS, poverty, poor education, political instability, economic instability, religious intolerance (which country is it where the Christians just slaughtered their Muslim neighbors?), yes the leftovers of colonialism - all play their parts as to why people looking for a scapegoat are easy prey to haters.

Places by and large where you have stability and relative prosperity are the places where the haters lose the argument. I also think that places that have or carried with them the enlightenment traditions of Europe already had the societal underpinnings for gay liberation (though I'm pretty sure "The Enlightenment" didn't think liberty would be applied quite that way.)

 

[Alnitak]

AMERICAN pshyco fundies with "kill the gays" agendas have been working on Africa for years - let's not discount their contributions.

In English speaking countries. What a shock!

Gee I wonder who taught them that language.

And since you all conveniently ignored this post I will quote it here.

A History of Christianity in Uganda

"In 1882 the White Fathers withdrew from Buganda altogether... it seems that they were particularly concerned about the corruption of their orphans and freed slaves by homosexual practices infiltrating into their orphanage from the nearby lubiri.

...

Mwanga succeeded his father in October 1884. He was 18 years old. Mwanga seems to have lacked strong religious convictions--he was a skeptic in an age of faith. His homosexuality alienated him from the missionaries."


Source: R. Heremans, L'Education dans les Missions des Peres Blancs en Afrique Centrale, Brussels, 1983, pp. 100-103.

 

[TX-Beau]

Now you're blaming Britain for American fundies because the Brits taught people English?

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Don't discount the Baptists, they're perfectly willing to learn Bantu.

 

[Alnitak]

Now you're blaming Britain for American fundies because the Brits taught people English?

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Don't discount the Baptists, they're perfectly willing to learn Bantu.

It was actually a group of five American pastors, and Martin Ssempa isn't American.

They didn't introduce Christianity to Uganda. The British did.

They didn't introduce sodomy laws to Uganda. The British did.

They didn't introduce homophobia to Uganda. The British did.

This material was published by the HRC in a report from 2008

"More than half of the world's remaining "sodomy" laws -criminalizing consensual homosexual conduct - are relics of British colonial rule, Human Rights Watch showed in a report published today.

...

The Human Rights Watch report shows, however, that British colonial rulers brought in these laws because they saw the conquered cultures as morally lax on sexuality. The British also wanted to defend their own colonists against the "corrupting" effect of the colonies.

...

Versions of Section 377 spread across the British Empire, from Africa to Southeast Asia. Through it, British colonists imposed one view on sexuality, by force, on all their colonized peoples.
"

'Sodomy' Laws Show Survival of Colonial Injustice

This is not a coincidence TX-Beau.

Nigeria, Uganda, Cameroon, Gambia, and Kenya where all this shit is going down were all British colonies.

 

[TX-Beau]

What I'm ignoring is a stupid argument that seems to have no real point other than people wanting to be right.

What does it really matter that Britain was homophobic in the nineteenth century? So was America, and I bet Canada and Australia.

What exactly are you looking to prove?

No matter what you post in here there is simply zero chance you are going to prove everything is the fault of the British, and even if you could, how exactly would that change anything?

 

[Alnitak]

Huge victory for gay rights in ZIMBABWE!!



Zimbabwe’s gay community wins a landmark court victory

Zimbabwe’s LGBT community is celebrating a court victory in which authorities sought to shut down the country’s main LGBT rights advocacy group.

Harare Magistrate Donald Ndirowei on Wednesday dismissed a judicial complaint against the group Gays and Lesbians of Zimbabwe (GALZ) that accused it of running an “unregistered” organization.

Mugabe is still alive? He must be 100 by now.

I can't believe the country has any semblance of an independent judiciary.

 

[Alnitak]

What I'm ignoring is a stupid argument that seems to have no real point other than people wanting to be right.

Um, I've spoken to Melanie Nathan, the SF based attorney doing most of the work on coordinating LGBT groups in the US with those in Africa, as well as Frank Mugisha the leader of SMUG. They agree with me that the root of this is a British problem. [Text: Removed]

What does it really matter that Britain was homophobic in the nineteenth century? So was America, and I bet Canada and Australia.

What exactly are you looking to prove?

No matter what you post in here there is simply zero chance you are going to prove everything is the fault of the British, and even if you could, how exactly would that change anything?

We need William Hague to open his mouth and put a stop to this.

 

[mightbe]

So much of the thread has been vainly trying to answer the sociological question. I don't think it even matters. The real question was posed by Kallipolis; why are these laws becoming more prevalent?

It's easy to see why certain countries did or didn't keep the laws (explained in my previous post that was ignored), but what is to be proven? Homophobia was not only the norm, but expected. Forget any Victorian influence on that. Nothing changed in that regard. The British enacted these laws, but there was nothing remarkable about it. There's nothing to be proven there.

What matters is why these laws are turning more and more backwards. Some of these countries are in a better place economically than they were. I'd expect some positive change. There's no hope for the Congo or Uganda, but there is for the more developed countries nearby.